London Buses Discussion

[MotCO]

LOTS reports the following tender awards

(http://www.lots.org.uk/)

LBSL intends to enter into new contracts for the following routes with the operators listed below:

Route	Current Operator	New Operator	PVR ​	Vehicles
148 (24hr)	London United	London United	16​	Existing New Routemaster
169	Stagecoach East London	Stagecoach East London	14​	New electric double deck
218	London United	London Transit	9​	New electric single deck
247	Stagecoach East London	Stagecoach East London	12​	New electric double deck
282	Metroline West	Metroline West	17​	Existing hybrid double deck
284	Stagecoach Selkent	Stagecoach Selkent	13​	Existing diesel single deck
398	London Sovereign	London Sovereign	4​	Existing electric single deck
422	Stagecoach Selkent	Stagecoach Selkent	17​	Existing diesel double deck
655	London United	Transport UK London	tba​	Existing hybrid double deck
C10	Transport UK London	Transport UK London	23​	Existing electric single deck
H9/H10	London Sovereign	London Sovereign	18​	Existing electric single deck
H98	London United	London United	15​	Existing New Routemaster
P5	Transport UK London	Transport UK London	9​	New and existing electric single deck

One thing that stands out is that those routes currently operated by electric vehicles are retained by the current contractor, presumably because some of the costs of these buses has already been absorbed, whereas a new operator would have to absorb the full cost of new electric buses. Is this a theme we are going to see in the future where routes operated by electric buses will be retained on retendering?

 

[Goldfish62]

LOTS reports the following tender awards

(http://www.lots.org.uk/)


One thing that stands out is that those routes currently operated by electric vehicles are retained by the current contractor, presumably because some of the costs of these buses has already been absorbed, whereas a new operator would have to absorb the full cost of new electric buses. Is this a theme we are going to see in the future where routes operated by electric buses will be retained on retendering?

That's really no different to what's gone before in the days of diesel then hybrid buses. If you have existing compliant vehicles you're almost always at an immediate advantage over operators who can only bid with new buses.

Note that the routes that were handed back by operators mid-term are only being let on short 3 year contracts.

 

[Busoccultation]

LOTS reports the following tender awards

(http://www.lots.org.uk/)


One thing that stands out is that those routes currently operated by electric vehicles are retained by the current contractor, presumably because some of the costs of these buses has already been absorbed, whereas a new operator would have to absorb the full cost of new electric buses. Is this a theme we are going to see in the future where routes operated by electric buses will be retained on retendering?

Not quite, as the 153 & C3 being the first two routes that are already electric operated got lost to another operator, however in the case of the C3 the contract by RATP was handed back and then saw the route returned back to Abellio using new Electroliners, while the 153 did a full 7 year team with Go-Ahead which they lost the new contract to Metroline who will be ordering a new batch of electrics for the route.

 

[londonbridge]

What’s going on this morning, 157 nearly fifteen minutes late, then two of em running together at 6am??!! Late for work now, not happy…..

 

[Goldfish62]

Not quite, as the 153 & C3 being the first two routes that are already electric operated got lost to another operator, however in the case of the C3 the contract by RATP was handed back and then saw the route returned back to Abellio using new Electroliners, while the 153 did a full 7 year team with Go-Ahead which they lost the new contract to Metroline who will be ordering a new batch of electrics for the route.

And in both cases it's most likely that the winner was able to offer new buses in an overall bid price that was cheaper than the incumbent offered with discounted existing buses.

It's a situation that has existed since the dawn of tendering, as has the more common situation of the incumbent being at an advantage if they're able to offer compliant vehicles that are no more than 7-8 years old.

I don't think EVs do anything to change the situation apart from there being fewer existing ones in circulation currently to offer as part of an alternative bid.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't think EVs do anything to change the situation apart from there being fewer existing ones in circulation currently to offer as part of an alternative bid.

The London bus fleet is currently about 8500 buses, about 7850 are needed each school day, about 7700 school holidays

There are around 1300 electric buses in service in London.
It is nearer 1450 on paper as that includes some newly delivered ones, not yet commissioned, or waiting garage charging; and a few out of service between contracts or awaiting modifications

So roughly 1 in 6 buses in London are electric, but very few are reaching end of contracts (although there were few routes terminated at 3 year break point, presumably because the covid era contracts tendered around 2000-2001 were not at a good price, relative to current costs)

 

[renegademaster]

What’s going on this morning, 157 nearly fifteen minutes late, then two of em running together at 6am??!! Late for work now, not happy…..

The 157 has been quite a state in the morning for a while. I think some of their older busses have conked out hence why you see them using electric busses borrowed from other routes. I've waited 15 minutes plus plenty of times at West Croydon

 

[JonathanH]

What’s going on this morning, 157 nearly fifteen minutes late, then two of em running together at 6am??!! Late for work now, not happy…..

How hard are 20mph speed restrictions hitting bus routes in South London at times when there is free running traffic. I went on late running 93s on Friday evening and Sunday morning that were both late and getting later.

 

[PGAT]

The 157 has been quite a state in the morning for a while. I think some of their older busses have conked out hence why you see them using electric busses borrowed from other routes. I've waited 15 minutes plus plenty of times at West Croydon

The 157 was actually allocated electrics from December

 

[londonbridge]

With the amount of traffic on the roads running to time at 05:30 or 06:00AM shouldn’t be that difficult though. The bus I get to work is routinely three-four minutes late, but it’s not been as bad as this morning before.

 

[Busaholic]

With the amount of traffic on the roads running to time at 05:30 or 06:00AM shouldn’t be that difficult though. The bus I get to work is routinely three-four minutes late, but it’s not been as bad as this morning before.

Could just have been a driver signing on late. I can remember such occurrences back to the 1950s!

 

[MotCO]

Could just have been a driver signing on late. I can remember such occurrences back to the 1950s!

May be your bus had been blocked in at the depot by a bus that wouldn't start / had a flat tyre etc.

 

[Busaholic]

May be your bus had been blocked in at the depot by a bus that wouldn't start / had a flat tyre etc.

These days, electronic issues too e,g, with ticket machine. The more sophisticated systems are, the more there is to go wrong. New drivers have a hell of a lot to learn: actual driving is almost an afterthought!

 

[Goldfish62]

These days, electronic issues too e,g, with ticket machine. The more sophisticated systems are, the more there is to go wrong. New drivers have a hell of a lot to learn: actual driving is almost an afterthought!

Signing on, finding your bus and doing the walk-round check all in 15 min is a challenge, and that's without finding a fault while doing the checks.

 

[Busaholic]

Signing on, finding your bus and doing the walk-round check all in 15 min is a challenge, and that's without finding a fault while doing the checks.

There's a good YouTube channel, the product of a driver at Stagecoach's historic Catford garage, revealing lots of these things. He's still making videos, though he's felt a little more restrained in his content after a message from management, but, to their credit, Stagecoach seem to recognise his sincerity and good-heartedness and haven't banned new videos. They're actually a good advert for the company imo.

 

[Goldfish62]

There's a good YouTube channel, the product of a driver at Stagecoach's historic Catford garage, revealing lots of these things. He's still making videos, though he's felt a little more restrained in his content after a message from management, but, to their credit, Stagecoach seem to recognise his sincerity and good-heartedness and haven't banned new videos. They're actually a good advert for the company imo.

Yes, I know who you're referring to - his videos are great. They capture the essence and atmosphere of working at a London garage very well.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes, I know who you're referring to - his videos are great. They capture the essence and atmosphere of working at a London garage very well.

You can tell how well he gets on with all his colleagues too, and their respect for him and the 'mentoring' role he seems to have too. I'm glad to see how the nearest garage of my childhood, especially in secondary school years, still thrives, in good hands.

 

[Sunil_P]

Electric buses (single deck) seen for the first time today on Go Ahead's 396 (east London).

 

[Snow1964]

New TfL Board committee papers ahead of 10th July meeting now available. Has a review of Superloop and lots of graphs and comments about usage and reliability.

Also suggests in section 4.7 that SL7 might be shortened

Whilst some routes are performing well, and others are improving, Both SL8 and SL9 have failed to meet minimum performance standards

(due to data, and length, not practical to quote document)

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s22634/csopp-20240710-Part1-item08-bus-ridership-and-superloop-monitoring%20Update.pdf

 

[MotCO]

Whilst some routes are performing well, and others are improving, Both SL8 and SL9 have failed to meet minimum performance standards

Poor timekeeping due to congestion? 20mph zones not helping? Sharing bus lanes with other stopping (non-express) services? (SL8 was 607; SL9 is Harrow to Heathrow)

 

[Busaholic]

Poor timekeeping due to congestion? 20mph zones not helping? Sharing bus lanes with other stopping (non-express) services? (SL8 was 607; SL9 is Harrow to Heathrow)

From my reading of the papers the SL8 is going to have an additional one (or more) buses allocated to it to help achieve the advertised headway.

 

[Blindtraveler]

My friend is a regular user of the sl9 and says that congestion in haystown and around Hayes and harlington station as well as congestion at certain times. Heading up to Heathrow is a big factor along with hs2 works approximately halfway along the route
I think they need to be very careful what they do with the sl7

 

[Goldfish62]

From my reading of the papers the SL8 is going to have an additional one (or more) buses allocated to it to help achieve the advertised headway.

That sort of action to address reliability is standard on routes across London.

You can view the latest performance reports for all routes here:

Bus routes & borough reports - Transport for London

You can find performance tables for all London's bus routes and boroughs below. Bus route information is based on up to two years data.

tfl.gov.uk

 

[Busaholic]

That sort of action to address reliability is standard on routes across London.

You can view the latest performance reports for all routes here:

Bus routes & borough reports - Transport for London

You can find performance tables for all London's bus routes and boroughs below. Bus route information is based on up to two years data.

tfl.gov.uk

I entered SL8, pressed search button and nothing happened, six times!

 

[PGAT]

I entered SL8, pressed search button and nothing happened, six times!

Here it is

https://bus.data.tfl.gov.uk/boroughreports/routes/performance-route-SL8.pdf

 

[SWT_USER]

Who is responsible for updating TFL bus stops which are served by non-London routes? In my area I'm thinking specifically of the 446 (White Bus -Woking - Hatton Cross) which shares bus stops with TFL routes 216, 203 and 116 at various points between Staines and Hatton Cross.

There is no information or indication the route even exists at any of the stops - no timetable information etc. I would expect it go have a bit more custom if people actually knew about it

 

[greenline712]

Non TfL routes need a London Service Permit to run in London (like a bus service registration, only different). The application costs £500 for five years, and as part of that, TfL "should" maintain bus stop timetables to their own standard.
However, as they cannot maintain timetables for their own routes, they fail miserably on this for other routes.
When Metroline still ran the 84 route, they resorted to posting their own new timetables across the TfL versions .... it took several months to get it sorted.
GoCoach in Orpington have been running a service to Sevenoaks for about 12 months now .... no sign of anything on London stops along the route. Appalling ....

 

[SWT_USER]

Non TfL routes need a London Service Permit to run in London (like a bus service registration, only different). The application costs £500 for five years, and as part of that, TfL "should" maintain bus stop timetables to their own standard.
However, as they cannot maintain timetables for their own routes, they fail miserably on this for other routes.
When Metroline still ran the 84 route, they resorted to posting their own new timetables across the TfL versions .... it took several months to get it sorted.
GoCoach in Orpington have been running a service to Sevenoaks for about 12 months now .... no sign of anything on London stops along the route. Appalling ....

Thanks - at least some of the relevant stops are in Surrey (although they are the standard TFL bus stops). I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not.

 

[MotCO]

GoCoach in Orpington have been running a service to Sevenoaks for about 12 months now .... no sign of anything on London stops along the route. Appalling ....

Pre-Covid, I'm sure that the E plates included the 431 (forerunner of the 3) - don't know if the E plates now show the 3.

 

[greenline712]

Pre-Covid, I'm sure that the E plates included the 431 (forerunner of the 3) - don't know if the E plates now show the 3.

No ... nothing at all when I was there a few weeks ago.