London Buses Discussion

[Goldfish62]

I think the difference will be that there is no needless antagonism between TfL/the Mayor and central government, that played well with the outer London//cab drivers/car driving voters. I don't think even the most fervent supporters of the new government imagine there will be mythical magic money tree or immediate improvements.

Absolutely. And hopefully a multi-year settlement that'll probably work out cheaper in the long run than the politically-motivated short-term settlements over the past few years.

 

[Thirteen]

A multi year settlement would mean TfL would be able to do key projects like the 1972 stock replacement which benefits Goole as well as London and look into things like the BLE.

 

[riceuten]

A multi year settlement would mean TfL would be able to do key projects like the 1972 stock replacement which benefits Goole as well as London and look into things like the BLE.

And the latter would drive the regeneration of the Old Kent Road. From tiny acorns etc etc

 

[Edvid]

First orders for London-spec next-gen EnviroEVs confirmed, with Stagecoach set to procure 24 E100s and 17 E400s next year.

41 next-generation Alexander Dennis electric buses destined for London with Stagecoach order | Alexander Dennis

Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., one of the world’s leading independent global bus manufacturers, today confirmed the first order from a London operator for its next-generation electric buses. Stagecoach will receive 24 Enviro100EV small buses and 17 Enviro400EV double deckers...

www.alexander-dennis.com

Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., one of the world’s leading independent global bus manufacturers, today confirmed the first order from a London operator for its next-generation electric buses.

Stagecoach will receive 24 Enviro100EV small buses and 17 Enviro400EV double deckers in early 2025 for routes operated on behalf of the capital’s transport authority Transport for London (TfL).

The next generation of Alexander Dennis electric buses meets the latest iterations of TfL’s pioneering Bus Safety Standard. Alexander Dennis was the first manufacturer to receive a positive result from independent impact testing of the buses’ revised front geometry, which protects vulnerable road users and improves direct vision for drivers.

In London specification, the next-generation Enviro400EV is 10.5m long and can accommodate up to 62 seated passengers. The Enviro100EV “big small bus” fits TfL’s smallest class of single deckers, providing 21 seats in vehicle that can navigate narrow residential streets thanks to its short 8.5m length and narrow 2.35m width.

With benchmark energy efficiency of 0.67kWh/km over the UK Bus Cycle for the Enviro400EV and 0.54kWh/km for the Enviro100EV, plus class-leading warrantable energy throughput of up to 1.6GWh and 1.2GWh respectively, Alexander Dennis’ next-generation electric buses have been designed to go further for longer at lower cost of ownership.

Ben Werth, Group Sales & Business Development Manager for Alexander Dennis, said: “This new order further confirms the incredible success of our next-generation vehicle platform, which we’ve designed in-house from the ground up to drive value for the UK bus industry through efficiency, longevity and flexibility.

“Before the first London-specification demonstrators have even hit the road, orders are in place from Stagecoach as the group recognises our next-generation buses’ potential to deliver outstanding total cost of ownership with an electric drive system that could last two full TfL route contract terms without a need for battery replacement.”

Nick Owen, Director of Buses at TfL, said: “London has the largest zero-emission bus fleet in Western Europe, with more than 1,400 buses, and we look forward to welcoming these 41 new Alexander Dennis electric buses on our routes. When the entire fleet is zero-emission, we will have saved around 5m tonnes of carbon.

“These new zero-emission buses all comply with our Bus Safety Standards for safer journeys for all road users, and will also support vital jobs across the UK in various stages of their production.”

Paul Lynch, Managing Director of Stagecoach London, said: “We’re looking forward to operating these buses which promise a step forward in range and longevity. They add to our rapidly growing electric bus fleet as we play our part in delivering TfL and the Mayor’s targets for London, as well as our own Stagecoach commitments on carbon reduction.”

 

[Goldfish62]

First orders for London-spec next-gen EnviroEVs confirmed, with Stagecoach set to procure 24 E100s and 17 E400s next year.

41 next-generation Alexander Dennis electric buses destined for London with Stagecoach order | Alexander Dennis

Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., one of the world’s leading independent global bus manufacturers, today confirmed the first order from a London operator for its next-generation electric buses. Stagecoach will receive 24 Enviro100EV small buses and 17 Enviro400EV double deckers...

www.alexander-dennis.com

Very good news for ADL, being their first break into the London market with their EVs.

Stagecoach London are really mixing it up with their EVs, with buses from BYD, Switch, Wrightbus, Volvo and now ADL.

 

[Busaholic]

Even after challenging them they are still adamant it's not their problem.

Thank you for contacting us and I can confirm for this route our manager has highlighted that White Bus and their partners would be responsible for this.

I tried!

Within the Greater London area, at least, TfL and its predecessors must and have had to liaise with the local boroughs, plus City of London Corporation, on all aspects of bus stop provision, location, associated furniture, statutory road markings, etc. In return, those local authorities have an expectation that TfL keep their side of the bargain and keep the stop tidy and provided with both up-to-date and correct information.

 

[Snow1964]

The latest TfL bus fleet audit (at 31 March 2024) has been published, fleet has grown 133 buses in a year.

Now 1398 electric and 20 fuel cell buses

Possible to pick out lots of individual data eg Arriva fleet has got older, now averaging 9.68 years on fleet of 1528 buses which suggests they need massive investment in fleet going forward

Lots of data in tables (so not practical to quote as text)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2024.pdf

 

[Goldfish62]

The latest TfL bus fleet audit (at 31 March 2024) has been published, fleet has grown 133 buses in a year.

Now 1398 electric and 20 fuel cell buses

Possible to pick out lots of individual data eg Arriva fleet has got older, now averaging 9.68 years on fleet of 1528 buses which suggests they need massive investment in fleet going forward

Lots of data in tables (so not practical to quote as text)

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/fleet-annual-audit-report-31-march-2024.pdf

Thanks. Lots of interesting stats there!

 

[Bishopstone]

I had an end-to-end ride on the 439 (Whyteleafe South – Waddon Marsh) last week. This struck me as a curious creation, running twice an hour until 20:00, only.

The southern terminus (effectively the semi-rural Wapses Lodge roundabout) feels quite random, though with the 407 and 434 both serving the obvious short extension to Caterham, there’s no demand-led reason for the 439 to triplicate this section.

The 439 then serves residential roads on the western side of the valley, up through Kenley to Purley, but never far (as the crow flies) from the Godstone Road to the east of the valley, which has a much more useable bus service thanks to the 407 (and 434). Maybe there are limited places to cross the railway line and access this more frequent service, however.

After Purley Cross, the 439 parallels the frequent double-decker 289 all the way to Waddon Marsh, where it terminates on the retail park close to the tram stop. I don’t imagine there’s much cross-Purley traffic on this route, which also duplicates the rail service between Whyteleafe and Purley.

An interesting ride, but there were never more than six on board. Maybe I chose an unusually quiet time, but otherwise I’m surprised this route hasn’t come under the scrutiny of the consolidator’s crayon, in respect of alternative termini or merger with another route.

 

[PGAT]

The Whyteleafe South to Purley section of the 439 was intended to replace the 434’s rerouting which would have gone via Higher Drive serving more of the backstreets of Kenley, but that rerouting hasn’t happened yet as its been identified that Wattendon Road isn’t safe for buses to use yet. So for the now the 439 appears to be more of a white elephant than it is.

Also early on in the planning stages a key objective was providing a direct Kenley to Waddon Marsh link, hence why it follows the Purley Way. Is this the most resourceful way of doing it? Maybe. Anyhow extra support for the 289 is welcome in my books.

 

[stevieinselby]

The Whyteleafe South to Purley section of the 439 was intended to replace the 434’s rerouting which would have gone via Higher Drive serving more of the backstreets of Kenley, but that rerouting hasn’t happened yet as its been identified that Wattendon Road isn’t safe for buses to use yet. So for the now the 439 appears to be more of a white elephant than it is.

Also early on in the planning stages a key objective was providing a direct Kenley to Waddon Marsh link, hence why it follows the Purley Way. Is this the most resourceful way of doing it? Maybe. Anyhow extra support for the 289 is welcome in my books.

Are you sure about that? The only info I can find is on https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...he-bus-network-in-the-croydon-and-sutton-area, which has no mention of Higher Drive. (And what is the problem with Wattenden Road? I've had a look on GSV and I can't see any obvious reason why it wouldn't be suitable for buses, or why it would be needed in order to serve Higher Drive, I can't imagine small E200 type buses would have any difficulty with the turn from Firs Road onto Park Road). But I'm happy to be corrected if you've got a different source, because I know that plans can change!

Providing a direct link from Kenley and Whyteleafe (but not Caterham) to Purley Way seems somewhat unnecessary and self-indulgent, given (a) how few bus passengers there are in Kenley and Whyteleafe, and (b) it would be quicker for most of them to get a train to East Croydon and then a tram.

• Route 434 between Whyteleafe South and Coulsdon, Ridgemount Avenue will be extended from Whyteleafe South to Caterham Station, running from Coulsdon to Caterham. Pending modifications to the road configuration it will be temporarily re-routed in both directions at Purley Station via Godstone Road to Whyteleafe and Upper Warlingham Station before returning to its current route. The new route 439 will serve Northwood Avenue, Oaks Road, Oaks Way, Kenley station, Valley Road, Beverley Road, Hornchurch Hill and Whyteleafe Hill in place of the current route 434. Route 434 will continue to operate every 30 minutes on all days of the week, with no late evening service.  The final proposed change to route 434 between Purley Station and Kenley to run via Higher Drive (as consulted on) will take place once changes to the roads have been completed.
• A brand new route 439 between Waddon Marsh, Sainsburys and Whyteleafe South, Wapses Lodge Roundabout, will be introduced. The route will operate from Trafalgar Way via Drury Crescent, Purley Way and Russell Hill Road (Banstead Road and Foxley Lane towards Waddon Marsh only) to Purley Cross then via the current route 434 to Whyteleafe South. Route 439 will also serve Waddon Marsh London Trams stop, creating a direct interchange between this bus route and the tram network, allowing for more journey options between Purley, Kenley and Whyteleafe and the tram network. Customers are also able to take advantage of the Hopper fare on buses and trams. Route 439 will operate every 30 minutes between 07:00 and 20:00 on all days of the week with no evening service

 

[PGAT]

Are you sure about that? The only info I can find is on https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...he-bus-network-in-the-croydon-and-sutton-area, which has no mention of Higher Drive. (And what is the problem with Wattenden Road? I've had a look on GSV and I can't see any obvious reason why it wouldn't be suitable for buses, or why it would be needed in order to serve Higher Drive, I can't imagine small E200 type buses would have any difficulty with the turn from Firs Road onto Park Road). But I'm happy to be corrected if you've got a different source, because I know that plans can change!

Providing a direct link from Kenley and Whyteleafe (but not Caterham) to Purley Way seems somewhat unnecessary and self-indulgent, given (a) how few bus passengers there are in Kenley and Whyteleafe, and (b) it would be quicker for most of them to get a train to East Croydon and then a tram.

The issue with the new rerouting is limited sightlines due to parked cars on Wattendon Road

Changes to bus routes in Kenley

UPDATE 23 May 2024:

www.croydonconservatives.com

I have received an additional update today from Transport for London (TfL) who are working closely with Croydon Council to address and resolve the issue regarding the bus route as soon as possible. The current focus shifts to Croydon's Highways and Parking team, who are now responsible for implementing parking controls on the pertinent section of Wattendon Road to sort out the driver sight lines safety concerns. Regarding timelines, it is anticipated that the resolution process may extend until mid to late summer of this year, contingent upon the completion of consultation processes and necessary approvals.

This document also mentions the direct Kenley to Waddon Marsh link and generally provided more context

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/croydon-bus-study.pdf

We are investigating whether we could restore a bus service to Waddon Marsh and introduce a service into Kenley.

 

[Mark L]

Who is responsible for updating TFL bus stops which are served by non-London routes? In my area I'm thinking specifically of the 446 (White Bus -Woking - Hatton Cross) which shares bus stops with TFL routes 216, 203 and 116 at various points between Staines and Hatton Cross.

There is no information or indication the route even exists at any of the stops - no timetable information etc. I would expect it go have a bit more custom if people actually knew about it

There is still nothing for the 556 on any bus stop nearly a year after the route started. That said, it’s probably academic as the service is due to be withdrawn next month!

Although TfL provides, and maintains, bus stops on roads it serves in Surrey I suspect that the provision of timetables only extends to its own services other than the fitting of e-tiles. The non-TfL information appears to be provided by Surrey CC and/or operators.

 

[greenline712]

Goood News !! The timetable for GoCoach's Route 3 to Sevenoaks has appeared on the relevant stop at Orpington High Street . . . no mention on the flag, but hey-ho . . .

Bad News !! Route 477 to Dartford has flag numbers . . . but no bus stop timetables at either Orpington Station or High Street . . . thank goodness for bustimes . . .

 

[SWT_USER]

There is still nothing for the 556 on any bus stop nearly a year after the route started. That said, it’s probably academic as the service is due to be withdrawn next month!

Although TfL provides, and maintains, bus stops on roads it serves in Surrey I suspect that the provision of timetables only extends to its own services other than the fitting of e-tiles. The non-TfL information appears to be provided by Surrey CC and/or operators.

I didn't know that but I don't think I've ever used it. It's so infrequent that it's basically useless. I see the 555 is transferring to White Bus too although as a longstanding service that one is on the TFL bus stops - and with timetable information too!

There is also a H21 Heathrow T4 to Bedfont run by Diamond. It runs entirely within TFL area but again no publicity or timetable on any stops. I know about the ones local to me but if the situation is the same in all the other outer London boroughs there are a lot of potential bus journeys not happening because of a total lack of information the routes even exist.

RE your second paragraph - just the bus number on the bus stop flag would be fine really. The vast majority of people have a smartphone and can easily search for any required information

 

[Statto]

I do think the N9 could do with a frequency increase, i was on the 01.35 from Aldwych last Thursday morning & the bus was full by the time it got past Hyde Park Corner, & the bus was full most of the route too, the return 03.15 from Heathrow looked full when it passed through Heathrow Central Bus Station too, add in you still have flights arriving after the last tube to Central London has departed so buses on the N9 from Heathrow are often full because of that, the N9 needs to be either every 15 or 20 minutes.

 

[Dstock7080]

There is also a H21 Heathrow T4 to Bedfont run by Diamond. It runs entirely within TFL area but again no publicity or timetable on any stops. I know about the ones local to me but if the situation is the same in all the other outer London boroughs there are a lot of potential bus journeys not happening because of a total lack of information the routes even exist.

H21 has tiles and timetable panels at all stops:

 

[Busaholic]

I do think the N9 could do with a frequency increase, i was on the 01.35 from Aldwych last Thursday morning & the bus was full by the time it got past Hyde Park Corner, & the bus was full most of the route too, the return 03.15 from Heathrow looked full when it passed through Heathrow Central Bus Station too, add in you still have flights arriving after the last tube to Central London has departed so buses on the N9 from Heathrow are often full because of that, the N9 needs to be either every 15 or 20 minutes.

The 'old' set-up with 4 bph to Hounslow, with half of them extended to Heathrow, at least gave non-Heathrow passengers a chance to board. By the sound of it, that might not now suffice, from Heathrow at least. It seems like the night services in west London generally need to be reviewed.

 

[MotCO]

The 'old' set-up with 4 bph to Hounslow, with half of them extended to Heathrow, at least gave non-Heathrow passengers a chance to board. By the sound of it, that might not now suffice, from Heathrow at least. It seems like the night services in west London generally need to be reviewed.

Or should the Piccadilly run 24/7 rather than just Friday and Saturday nights. Maintenance may be an issue, but presumably where it runs alongside the District Line should be ok.

 

[Goldfish62]

Or should the Piccadilly run 24/7 rather than just Friday and Saturday nights. Maintenance may be an issue, but presumably where it runs alongside the District Line should be ok.

Much easier, quicker and cheaper to enhance the N9. And the crossovers between Hammersmith and Barons Court have been removed.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Or should the Piccadilly run 24/7 rather than just Friday and Saturday nights. Maintenance may be an issue, but presumably where it runs alongside the District Line should be ok.

There is no longer any ability for the District and Piccadilly lines to share tracks. Even so, such a small portion of line would provide no real benefit to support 24/7 running; it’s a non-starter.

 

[Busaholic]

Or should the Piccadilly run 24/7 rather than just Friday and Saturday nights. Maintenance may be an issue, but presumably where it runs alongside the District Line should be ok.

Well, not to resolve this issue! The first move should be to go to 4 bph throughout the route on the N9, possibly adding an earlier journey or two on day routes in the vicinity as well. As I said previously, though, there's the intention to alter another night bus route in the general west London area by extending it, and perhaps a wider review may be called for now covid has become less of an inhibiting factor.

 

[MotCO]

Well, not to resolve this issue! The first move should be to go to 4 bph throughout the route on the N9, possibly adding an earlier journey or two on day routes in the vicinity as well. As I said previously, though, there's the intention to alter another night bus route in the general west London area by extending it, and perhaps a wider review may be called for now covid has become less of an inhibiting factor.

How about a limited stop Superloop from Heathrow to London at night? This will speed up journey times for end to end users, and free up capacity on the N9 for intermediate users.

 

[Busaholic]

How about a limited stop Superloop from Heathrow to London at night? This will speed up journey times for end to end users, and free up capacity on the N9 for intermediate users.

It's an idea, maybe from Paddington or Shepherd's Bush, though, at 20 minute intervals. If Heathrow were to make a good contribution to it then it could be a runner. The branding and allocation of suitable buses might present an obstacle, but maybe two operating companies could make a joint bid for the contract, to run out of HD and UX for instance. This sort of flexibility has to be the way for the future imo.

 

[SWT_USER]

H21 has tiles and timetable panels at all stops:

I checked this morning and you are quite right. I feel a bit silly now! I wonder why they were able to update those bus stops but not the 446.

It's an idea, maybe from Paddington or Shepherd's Bush, though, at 20 minute intervals. If Heathrow were to make a good contribution to it then it could be a runner. The branding and allocation of suitable buses might present an obstacle, but maybe two operating companies could make a joint bid for the contract, to run out of HD and UX for instance. This sort of flexibility has to be the way for the future imo.

That would be the showstopper. Heathrow will plead poverty and expect TFL/ taxpayers to fund it.

 

[MotCO]

I checked this morning and you are quite right. I feel a bit silly now! I wonder why they were able to update those bus stops but not the 446.


That would be the showstopper. Heathrow will plead poverty and expect TFL/ taxpayers to fund it.

If there is large demand, won't it be self-financing? Do night routes attract premium fares, if not, could this , being an 'express service'?

It's an idea, maybe from Paddington or Shepherd's Bush, though, at 20 minute intervals.

Maybe Heathrow - Hammersmith - Paddington - Victoria - Trafalger Square?

 

[bakerstreet]

If there is large demand, won't it be self-financing? Do night routes attract premium fares, if not, could this , being an 'express service'?


Maybe Heathrow - Hammersmith - Paddington - Victoria - Trafalger Square?

Perhaps a brand like hmm I don’t know AIRBUS might work !

 

[johncrossley]

Do night routes attract premium fares

Not for about 20 years. Before about 2003, night buses had higher fares and One Day Bus Passes and Travelcards weren't valid.

 

[Edvid]

Arriva have ordered 51 BZL double deckers for routes 243 and 341 (both run from Tottenham); it's the first UK Bus order for that product line.

Arriva London orders 51 Volvo BZL electric double-deckers - routeone

Arriva London has placed an order for 51 Volvo BZL battery-electric double-deckers. They will work from Tottenhamon routes 243 and 341.

www.route-one.net

Arriva London has placed an order for 51 Volvo BZL battery-electric double-deckers. They represent the first order for the BZL from Arriva and will be deployed from Tottenham depot on Transport for London (TfL) routes 243 and 341.

Delivery is to commence in 2025 and the buses will be 10.9m long. High-backed seating will be fitted along with USB charging points and glazed skylights. Each will have 470kWh of energy storage with the 200kW driveline including a two-speed automated manual gearbox.

Speaking about the BZL purchase, Arriva UK Bus Managing Director London Marcos Hart says: “Arriva UK bus is committed to decarbonising our fleet in London, and this most recent order with Volvo builds on the millions of pounds we have already invested in creating the clean, electrified and efficient public transport networks that communities in the capital deserve.”

Adds Volvo Bus UK and Ireland Managing Director Domenico Bondi: “As our industry embraces electromobility, we prioritise sustainability, safety and reliability throughout our processes – from material sourcing and manufacturing to recycling.

“So, we are proud and excited to be supplying Arriva London with all-electric buses in that instantly recognisable red livery. Our relationship stretches back years and our respective teams have collaborated to meet the requirements from TfL and help to reduce emissions in the capital.”

 

[Busaholic]

If there is large demand, won't it be self-financing? Do night routes attract premium fares, if not, could this , being an 'express service'?


Maybe Heathrow - Hammersmith - Paddington - Victoria - Trafalger Square?

Neither night routes nor Superloop i.e. limited stop routes charge premium fares. To do so would be very problematic and be more trouble than it was worth e.g. specially adapted ticket machines and the added scope for driver/passenger conflict, the last thing needed in the middle of the night.