London Buses Discussion

[busesrusuk]

I do think the N9 could do with a frequency increase, i was on the 01.35 from Aldwych last Thursday morning & the bus was full by the time it got past Hyde Park Corner, & the bus was full most of the route too, the return 03.15 from Heathrow looked full when it passed through Heathrow Central Bus Station too, add in you still have flights arriving after the last tube to Central London has departed so buses on the N9 from Heathrow are often full because of that, the N9 needs to be either every 15 or 20 minutes.

The last scheduled flight arrival is just before 11pm. Heathrow has very restricted operations on overnight flights with generally no arrivals before 04.40 and no departures after 22.55. So there will be very limited traffic between those hours. Given the requirement to arrive at the airport approx 2 hours before departure and the frequent delays in clearing customs etc on arrival I suspect that most buses will be running when the first/last flighths arrive/depart.

Tonight, for instance the last scheduled arrival is 22.55 from Portugal followed by the first in the morning at around 04.30 (source flightradar24) - these are normally flights from the far east and having done a few of those flights they either stay on stand at their departure airport for longer than planned to waste time when there are favourable winds or circle around London until the airport "opens" at 04.30.

According to TfL journey planner the last tube from LHR towards central London is midnight with first departure at 05.22. There is no obvious reason for a significant overnight service to/from LHR as the majority of passengers are likely to be staff and the local network is quite well catered for.

As for an express bus from LHR to central London there are more than plenty of coaches doing that trip by Nat Ex, Flix and Megabus...

Arriva have ordered 51 BZL double deckers for routes 243 and 341 (both run from Tottenham); it's the first UK Bus order for that product line.

Arriva London orders 51 Volvo BZL electric double-deckers - routeone

Arriva London has placed an order for 51 Volvo BZL battery-electric double-deckers. They will work from Tottenhamon routes 243 and 341.

www.route-one.net

err. not sure about that, Go Ahead London have had a demonstrator for the last six months or so whilst the first large batch of BZL deckers are entering service as we speak with Stagecoach London on route 58; shortly to be followed by more for routes 277 and a.n other (cant remember what the route number is off the top of my head).

Outside of London they have been running in Cambridge for a year or more - see below:

SCoach East 86019 Jun23v2

Explore kw58clt's 6766 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

GAL MVB1 Jul24

Sutton, Jul 2024

www.flickr.com

 

[Edvid]

err. not sure about that, Go Ahead London have had a demonstrator for the last six months or so whilst the first large batch of BZL deckers are entering service as we speak with Stagecoach London on route 58; shortly to be followed by more for routes 277 and a.n other (cant remember what the route number is off the top of my head).

Outside of London they have been running in Cambridge for a year or more [...]

All true, though I was referring to Arriva UK Bus (i.e. the Arriva Group subsidiary, hence the capital 'B') rather than the bus industry in general.

(N.B. The other Stagecoach route is D7)

 

[PGAT]

The first of Arriva's order of Electroliners for the 50, 194, 250, 289, 663 and 689 has arrived at TH garage: ES144 (LY24FWV)

 

[Busaholic]

Anyone know the identity of the LT which got caught up in the 'Tommy Robinson' supporters' demonstration in Central London today? I'm more interested on which route it was on and how and why it got stuck where it did, on Aldwych just short of the Royal Courts of Justice where the demo started, as per advance warnings I believe. Nothing else seemed to get caught from what I saw on a live stream. It reminded me of the RML on route 24 which got caught on Whitehall on the day in 1968 of the massive anti-Vietnam War demo, which I attended. That occurrence was the result of a cussed bus driver refusing to accept the 'advice' of the Met Police to divert via Victoria Embankment.

 

[PGAT]

New bus route 310 has been awarded to Stagecoach London and will commence on 31 August 2024

 

[eh_oh]

New bus route 310 has been awarded to Stagecoach London and will commence on 31 August 2024

Interesting that they chose a new route rather than the previously floated idea of extending the 210 to Stamford Hill.
This is my assumed map of 310 route:

 

[stevieinselby]

Interesting that they chose a new route rather than the previously floated idea of extending the 210 to Stamford Hill.

For a guess, a couple of reasons:

• TfL don't like having journeys running part-route, maybe they thought the route needed more capacity between Golders Green and Finsbury Park but couldn't justify the extra buses it would need to run right through from Brent Cross to Stamford Hill
• The route is almost an hour long now, which is the TfL sweet spot, the majority of routes are an hour or less, and extending the 210 to Stamford Hill would have pushed them well over that threshold, which can start to impact negatively on timekeeping and reliability.
• As it looks like it's short-term funding for a trial period, they probably don't want to run the risk of changing the substantive route and timetable of the 210, only to potentially have to change it back in a year or two if the trial is unsuccessful, whereas it's a lot easier to just can the 310 if it isn't working out.

 

[Mikey C]

That's a pleasant surprise, a new bus in my area

I wasn't aware that there was the need for extra capacity between Golders Green and Finsbury Park, the 210s never seemed excessively busy. Not sure Golders Green bus station needs another terminating route either. Stagecoach is a surprise too, the Golders Green end will be a long way from home areas.

The existing 210 doesn't go under the low bridge at Finsbury Park, will the 310 be single decker operated?

 

[PGAT]

.The existing 210 doesn't go under the low bridge at Finsbury Park, will the 310 be single decker operated?

Indeed

 

[Busaholic]

For a guess, a couple of reasons:

• TfL don't like having journeys running part-route, maybe they thought the route needed more capacity between Golders Green and Finsbury Park but couldn't justify the extra buses it would need to run right through from Brent Cross to Stamford Hill
• The route is almost an hour long now, which is the TfL sweet spot, the majority of routes are an hour or less, and extending the 210 to Stamford Hill would have pushed them well over that threshold, which can start to impact negatively on timekeeping and reliability.
• As it looks like it's short-term funding for a trial period, they probably don't want to run the risk of changing the substantive route and timetable of the 210, only to potentially have to change it back in a year or two if the trial is unsuccessful, whereas it's a lot easier to just can the 310 if it isn't working out.

An added reason would be the reduced hours of operation of the 310.

 

[LUYMun]

The existing 210 doesn't go under the low bridge at Finsbury Park, will the 310 be single decker operated?

According to Londoner92, the London Tenders state that the 310 will utilise existing single-deck diesel buses: https://clondoner92.blogspot.com/2024/07/london-bus-tender-awards-new-route-310.html

Route 310
Current Operator: N/A - New Route
New Operator: Stagecoach London
Peak Vehicle Requirement: 8
Vehicles: Existing Diesel Single Deckers
Contract Start Date: 31st August 2024
Contract End Date: TBC

The diesel vehicles detailed above will meet Euro VI emissions standards.

 

[Goldfish62]

According to Londoner92, the London Tenders state that the 310 will utilise existing single-deck diesel buses: https://clondoner92.blogspot.com/2024/07/london-bus-tender-awards-new-route-310.html

That is definitely the case. Source: TfL tender award announcement.

Mod note: link and quote, please

 

[Mikey C]

I had wondered if the route was specifically introduced to link two Jewish areas, and that is indeed the case. I hadn't realised that it was a pledge from the Mayor

New bus route to link London Jewish areas amid antisemitism concerns

A new 310 bus route is being introduced to link two Jewish areas following concerns of antisemitism.

www.hamhigh.co.uk

Andrew Gilbert, vice president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, said: "The Jewish community want to thank Commissioner Andy Lord and Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan for finally making this happen. The Jews of Golders Green and Stamford Hill will now have a direct transport connection that is part of the standard transport network.

“We want to thank all of those who have worked on this for more than 15 years, a lightbulb solution has broken through."

Mayor of London Sadiq Khan said: “I made the pledge to introduce this route between Golders Green and Stamford Hill, and I’m pleased to be able to deliver.

“The brand-new bus route will connect Golders Green and Stamford Hill with a direct service for the first time, supporting many people in the Jewish community with their daily commutes.

 

[Busoccultation]

I had wondered if the route was specifically introduced to link two Jewish areas, and that is indeed the case. I hadn't realised that it was a pledge from the Mayor

New bus route to link London Jewish areas amid antisemitism concerns

A new 310 bus route is being introduced to link two Jewish areas following concerns of antisemitism.

www.hamhigh.co.uk

Yes, it is and because there have been numerous requests to TfL over the years for wanting a direct bus between Golders Green & Stamford Hill including being mentioned through the London Assembly.

I have linked a couple of questions raised to the Mayor on this through the London Assembly on the Greater London Authority website as a reference:

Bus service between Stamford Hill and Golders Green

www.london.gov.uk

210 bus from Finsbury Park to Golders Green

www.london.gov.uk

Stamford Hill bus to Golders Green

www.london.gov.uk

 

[Cypher]

I wasn't aware that there was the need for extra capacity between Golders Green and Finsbury Park, the 210s never seemed excessively busy. Not sure Golders Green bus station needs another terminating route either. Stagecoach is a surprise too, the Golders Green end will be a long way from home areas.

I would agree with you that there isn't a need for extra capacity from Golders Green to Highgate, For the majority of the day at least(Mostly anywhere after 20:00) However the 210 does get fully packed out in the mornings between approx 07:00 to 09:00, when you take into account the several schools it passes and serves or at least utilises the route, which is approximately 3/4 Secondary Schools with an additional 2 that uses the 210 as a feeder to Archway, several local primary and nurseries, the route does actually require Double deckers.

Back in the day when the route was owned by Thorpes using single deckers, it would not have been strange to find yourself waiting for 3/4 buses in the morning before even getting a very tight standing space opportunity.

As someone that does live on the route, i'm honestly 50/50 on the position of them using SD on the route, i think to be fair we all understand why they have too becuase of the infamous low bridge at Finsbury park, but having it at a frequency of every 20 minutes does seem to be a design to fail, while it will be heavily utilised by the Orthodox Community in both Golders Green and Stamford Hill, it also opens up a direct connection for people using it for the schools, Hospital and coach station connections between Stamford Hill and Finsbury Park(without the need to change buses, especially for those less able to).

I do ask myself in the position again of the timetabling, if for instance the 07:00 and 07:20 buses from Stamford Hill are both overloaded with all occupants going as far as the last stop in Golders Green, thats potentially a 40 minute gap at the beginning of service that makes this route and timetabling design seem more political based then an additional beneficial service to the wider communities as a whole. Unfortunately the design of this idea for me adds more cons than pros.

 

[37114]

ADL has made a press release for its London demonstrator (Source ADL website). Press release mentions orders already placed from "operators", note use of plural tense so implies not just Stagecoach (previously announced) have placed orders.

Alexander Dennis presents next-generation Enviro400EV for London with landmark 14-year battery warranty | Alexander Dennis

Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., one of the world’s leading independent global bus manufacturers, this week unveiled the first next-generation Enviro400EV battery-electric double decker built to Transport for London (TfL) specification. The Enviro400EV for London is fitted with...

www.alexander-dennis.com

"Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., one of the world’s leading independent global bus manufacturers, this week unveiled the first next-generation Enviro400EV battery-electric double decker built to Transport for London (TfL) specification.

The Enviro400EV for London is fitted with 472kWh batteries as standard, which the manufacturer is now able to warrant for 14 years or 1 million km, whichever comes first, under normal operating conditions in the capital. This allows the zero-emission bus to cover two consecutive seven-year route contracts without a need for battery replacement, contributing to low total cost of ownership."

 

[Goldfish62]

ADL has made a press release for its London demonstrator (Source ADL website). Press release mentions orders already placed from "operators", note use of plural tense so implies not just Stagecoach (previously announced) have placed orders.

Alexander Dennis presents next-generation Enviro400EV for London with landmark 14-year battery warranty | Alexander Dennis

Alexander Dennis, a subsidiary of NFI Group Inc., one of the world’s leading independent global bus manufacturers, this week unveiled the first next-generation Enviro400EV battery-electric double decker built to Transport for London (TfL) specification. The Enviro400EV for London is fitted with...

www.alexander-dennis.com

What is a first here is warranting the batteries for 14 years. I assume this would be an optional extra as some operators will still wish to lease the batteries from a battery manager, eg, Zenobe.

 

[adrianjohnson]

Sullivan Buses have announed they will no longer run services for TfL:

Following discussions with TfL we are suspending our operations on routes 217, 298, 299, 327, 389, 399, W9, 605, 606, 617, 629, & 549. Our commercial services are unaffected. We will be looking to grow commercial services.

Source: https://x.com/Sullivanbuses/status/1819426987645005983

Full press release is here: https://x.com/Sullivanbuses/status/1819428901971808300/photo/1

 

[MotCO]

Sullivan Buses have announed they will no longer run services for TfL:



Source: https://x.com/Sullivanbuses/status/1819426987645005983

Full press release is here: https://x.com/Sullivanbuses/status/1819428901971808300/photo/1

I'm not surprised - I thought they had previously said that they were not going to bid for any new tenders.

Their press release was interesting - why would TfL not pay amounts owing, and expect to pay by instalments? Unless those were the contractual terms.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm not surprised - I thought they had previously said that they were not going to bid for any new tenders.

Their press release was interesting - why would TfL not pay amounts owing, and expect to pay by instalments? Unless those were the contractual terms.

Usually a sign of a complete breakdown of relations, and perhaps trust, between two sides. As a total outsider I can't say I'm surprised at this development. Will any small operator ever win a contract to run buses for TfL again?

 

[Andyh82]

I recall reading that the 8 operators running London bus services was the fewest number of operators involved since the start of individual routes being tendered in the 80s

With Sullivan going that is now just 7, and one of them is Uno

 

[GusB]

The Sullivan situation now has its own thread:

The end of Sullivan Buses (in London)

I know this is probably going to crop up in the London Buses 'masterthread' eventually if it hasn't already but thought it may be good to warrant it's own discussion. Sullivan's has announced due to repeated delayed payments affecting their cash flow and the inability to be able to renegotiate...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[londonbridge]

On late shift at work, gone on break, checked my phone and found a TFL email saying West Croydon Bus Station was closing at 6pm today in anticipation of possible demonstrations…..

 

[Statto]

I recall reading that the 8 operators running London bus services was the fewest number of operators involved since the start of individual routes being tendered in the 80s

With Sullivan going that is now just 7, and one of them is Uno

Thinking back to the mid 90s when their was a load of independent operators, & the London bus scene was quite colourful with a variety companies & different liveries not just London red (likes of Armchair, Capital Citybus, Grey Green ecc), Metroline have since brought most of them, Grey Green became Arriva.

 

[BJames]

On late shift at work, gone on break, checked my phone and found a TFL email saying West Croydon Bus Station was closing at 6pm today in anticipation of possible demonstrations…..

Walthamstow Bus station also closed at 6pm. 34 and SL1 at least curtailing at Crooked Billet (with lots of additional time waiting around).

 

[matt_world2004]

Walthamstow Bus station also closed at 6pm. 34 and SL1 at least curtailing at Crooked Billet (with lots of additional time waiting around).

We were told Walthamstow bus station didn't close because of protests but because of badly parked police vehicles

 

[BJames]

We were told Walthamstow bus station didn't close because of protests but because of badly parked police vehicles

Oh really I hadn't heard that - I heard the closure and reason from a driver at the depot on the 34s, local MP Stella Creasy also tweeted at 17:06 that the bus station will be closed from 6pm, I'm not sure I understand how that can correlate with badly parked police vehicles - that wouldn't be known in advance?

If that really is the reason fair enough, but regardless I thought the bus station closure and curtailment probably wasn't such a bad idea anyway if things had in fact kicked off.

 

[matt_world2004]

Oh really I hadn't heard that - I heard the closure and reason from a driver at the depot on the 34s, local MP Stella Creasy also tweeted at 17:06 that the bus station will be closed from 6pm, I'm not sure I understand how that can correlate with badly parked police vehicles - that wouldn't be known in advance?

If that really is the reason fair enough, but regardless I thought the bus station closure and curtailment probably wasn't such a bad idea anyway if things had in fact kicked off.

http://networkmanagementcc.blogspot.com/2024/08/walthamstow-bus-station-e17.html?m=1

7th August at 1528hrs

The exit from the bus station is congested due to a large amount of Police Vans at the junction of Selbourne Road.

Routes Affected: 212, 230, 275, W12, W15, W19

212, 230, 275, W12, W15, W19 from Selbourne Road at Walthamstow Bus Station, A Selbourne Road (not serving Walthamstow bus station), LOR. Same in Reverse.

Diversion Reference: D69387

It was closed slightly earlier because of police vehicles sorry I got my times mixed up

 

[Busaholic]

http://networkmanagementcc.blogspot.com/2024/08/walthamstow-bus-station-e17.html?m=1

It was closed slightly earlier because of police vehicles sorry I got.my times mixed up

I would think if the police knew the bus station was being closed then they might reasonably decide they could use it for their vehicles. I doubt, though, that they'd just park vehicles and leave them there without some sort of supervision because of arson concerns.

 

[Simon75]

Why do all London buses still use Wayfarer ticket machines?