London Buses Discussion

[Deerfold]

Why do all London buses still use Wayfarer ticket machines?

The ticket machine is closely integrated with the iBus system providing the data for the onboard displays, Countdown signs and apps. That doesn't make it impossible to change but there'll be quite a lot of work involved.

 

[johncrossley]

Is there a good reason to replace Wayfarers with something else, given that tickets aren't being issued? The Oyster reader is better positioned for quick boarding compared to the Ticketer machines.

 

[MotCO]

Isn't there a new programme to start updating/replacing iBus? If so, does that specify the ticket machine to be used?

 

[Busoccultation]

Isn't there a new programme to start updating/replacing iBus? If so, does that specify the ticket machine to be used?

Yes, it has been awarded to INIT (who already provide the ticket machines for National Express West Midlands/Coventry and Nottingham City Transport) as part of the iBus replacement project. I'm not 100% sure as to whether it will replace the ticket machine or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do so as the current machines are already linked to the current iBus system when the driver logs onto the system on the bus.

New generation of iBus set to enhance bus travel in London

New generation of iBus set to enhance bus travel in London

tfl.gov.uk

 

[lookapigeon]

Yes, the current TFL bus ticket machines are ancient but they seem to do to the job. I wonder if the oyster pad can be integrated into any new machine(s) - from anecdotal evidence I have seen they give a good read speed at barriers etc when used with a real card. The mileage varies when people use phones/devices etc.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, the current TFL bus ticket machines are ancient but they seem to do to the job. I wonder if the oyster pad can be integrated into any new machine(s) - from anecdotal evidence I have seen they give a good read speed at barriers etc when used with a real card. The mileage varies when people use phones/devices etc.

While I don't believe the contract has been awarded yet the current ticket machines (which are no longer ticket machines in that they don't even have a print function anymore) are planned to be replaced with a console.

 

[H&I]

TfL don't like having journeys running part-route, maybe they thought the route needed more capacity between Golders Green and Finsbury Park but couldn't justify the extra buses it would need to run right through from Brent Cross to Stamford Hill

Why does TfL not like journeys that run on a shorter section of a bus route? This practice is common in other parts of the UK.

 

[Busaholic]

Why does TfL not like journeys that run on a shorter section of a bus route? This practice is common in other parts of the UK.

Many reasons, but I think the primary one is the flat fare nature of all London bus routes. Before the introduction of the Hopper fare, each new journey required fresh payment, except when a through journey got truncated for operational reasons. I do understand that tourists might get confused, particularly now so little printed information is available, but I think some flexibility should be considered.

 

[DGP]

Why does TfL not like journeys that run on a shorter section of a bus route? This practice is common in other parts of the UK.

It used to be very common in London as well, together with some routes operating in overlapping sections - it could get very complicated, the current situation seems a lot to do with simplifying the network and making it more customer-friendly.

 

[Statto]

It used to be very common in London as well, together with some routes operating in overlapping sections - it could get very complicated, the current situation seems a lot to do with simplifying the network and making it more customer-friendly.

Yeah, like the 12 back in the day which went Harlesden to South Croydon, but the route operated in 3 sections, Harlesden to Dulwich, Oxford Circus to South Norwood & Peckham to South Croydon, then add in Evening & Sunday workings which differed from the main workings, it could be very confusing for the passenger if they weren't aware of this type of arrangement.

 

[H&I]

Reintroducing suffixes to the bus route numbering system could make variations of a bus route and buses that terminate early less confusing for passengers. The 310 could be the 210A or the 210S, with “S” meaning “Special” or “Stamford Hill”.

 

[PGAT]

The electroliners for the 64 have finally entered service today

 

[Busaholic]

Reintroducing suffixes to the bus route numbering system could make variations of a bus route and buses that terminate early less confusing for passengers. The 310 could be the 210A or the 210S, with “S” meaning “Special” or “Stamford Hill”.

It's exactly 100 years since the Bassom Scheme on London bus route numbering was introduced, named after the head honcho at the Metropolitan Police, and each shortworking on a route had to have a suffix letter attached. It became something of a hobby horse for this individual and continued into the 1930s and the formation of the London Passenger Transport Board. Opinion among passengers as to its efficacy is not known, but that of professional bus people is and it was generally considered to present far more problems than it solved, and it was abandoned. I feel that opinion would be echoed today.

 

[MotCO]

It took them years to get rid of suffixes - I can't see them reversing that policy.

 

[LUYMun]

So the answer's simple for short running then: expect passengers to be sensible enough to read the front of the bus and listen to the iBus announcements where it's going.

 

[renegademaster]

With LED blinds suffixes must be easier operationally. Shame it's still probably a good 5 years plus until most busses have them

 

[DucksGoQuack]

Get ready to say goodbye to the 347!

The Upminster MP has been told by TFL the route likely to face the chop - Announced here:

TfL have revived their plans to scrap the 347 bus service which runs throughout the Hornchurch & Upminster constituency. Now the local MP Julia Lopez is once again calling for residents’ feedback on the proposals.
In a meeting between Mrs Lopez’s office and TfL, the organisation announced that it expects to scrap the route at a meeting next week, only months after putting the plan on ice.

The news follows Mrs Lopez’s successful campaign to save the route after it was initially announced to be scrapped back in 2023. In January this year, TfL said they would retain the route while keeping it under review.

However, just seven months later, TfL are likely to go back on their plans to scrap the route.

The removal of the service follows Mayor Khan’s announcement that he would improve bus services in London’s outer boroughs to ensure communities aren’t cut off following the ULEZ expansion across the capital

It was left 'Under Review' from the previous consultation that extended the 346 & scrapped the abysmal 497.

 

[londonbridge]

Re SL5/SL7 proposals, at least three times in the last few weeks I’ve passed through Carshalton and noticed large groups of 20 or more people with cases and luggage waiting for an SL7 to Heathrow. I’m guessing they were foreign exchange students, imagine trying to get them all on a single decker SL5, especially with the Croydon passengers already on board.

 

[talldave]

Re SL5/SL7 proposals, at least three times in the last few weeks I’ve passed through Carshalton and noticed large groups of 20 or more people with cases and luggage waiting for an SL7 to Heathrow. I’m guessing they were foreign exchange students, imagine trying to get them all on a single decker SL5, especially with the Croydon passengers already on board.

Is the SL5/SL7 consultation available online?

 

[PGAT]

Is the SL5/SL7 consultation available online?

It was never available online, I believe it may have been shelved

 

[DGP]

Is the SL5/SL7 consultation available online?

I think it first appeared on some election literature from Sadiq Khan and since I had not seen anything on the TfL consultation page about it, my first thought was that the map had simply been misdrawn. I've not seen or heard anything since to suggest that TfL are seriously considering this option.

It's exactly 100 years since the Bassom Scheme on London bus route numbering was introduced, named after the head honcho at the Metropolitan Police, and each shortworking on a route had to have a suffix letter attached. It became something of a hobby horse for this individual and continued into the 1930s and the formation of the London Passenger Transport Board. Opinion among passengers as to its efficacy is not known, but that of professional bus people is and it was generally considered to present far more problems than it solved, and it was abandoned. I feel that opinion would be echoed today.

I think the Bassom system was effectively abandoned by London Transport when it was formed in 1933 with short workings just using the same unsuffixed number as the full route and suffixes being used for variations to the main route. I guess suffixed routes survived for so long is that Central London bus routes could only be numbered in the 1 to 299 range for many years.

I still don't get though why suffixes are bad but prefixes are good.

 

[londonbridge]

The last I understood was that the consultation was postponed due to the General Election, but the proposals (to withdraw SL7 between Sutton and Croydon, and replace it by extending SL5) had been leaked.

 

[Numpt33]

Why does TfL not like journeys that run on a shorter section of a bus route? This practice is common in other parts of the UK.

London doesn't do "provincial" bus practices as "Landan iz deefrint"

 

[philosopher]

Is it just me, or are buses in Central London particularly badly disrupted by roadworks at the moment? Over the past few months, pretty much every time I get on a bus in Central London I seem to hear the announcement ‘This bus is on diversion, please listen out for further announcements’ or ‘the next bus stop is closed’. It seems the norm recently for buses to come across at least one set of temporary traffic lights. Last week I was on a bus that got caught by two temporary sets of traffic lights on Gracechurch Street in the City of London that were probably less than 200 metres apart.

Some of the roadworks seem to have been ongoing for months. For example King William Street southbound south of the Bank of England will be closed for over a year, forcing buses to be diverted via the very congested Cannon Street or Gracechurch Street.

The extent of the disruption from these roadworks has got so much now that I have pretty much stopped using buses in Central London.

 

[davews]

Is it just me, or are buses in Central London particularly badly disrupted by roadworks at the moment? Over the past few months, pretty much every time I get on a bus in Central London I seem to hear the announcement ‘This bus is on diversion, please listen out for further announcements’ or ‘the next bus stop is closed’. It seems the norm recently for buses to come across at least one set of temporary traffic lights. Last week I was on a bus that got caught by two temporary sets of traffic lights on Gracechurch Street in the City of London that were probably less than 200 metres apart.

There also seems to be issues with the TFL site giving inorrect information. A few weeks ago I got on a 403 at Hamsey Green to go to Sanderstead station, no suggestions anywhere that it was being diverted, when suddenly it went on a long diversion nowhere near Sanderstead..... Yesterday I used the 90 to get from Hatton Cross to Feltham. The TFL site suggests (and still does) that this is on diversion south of Hatton Cross and buses are not serving the stops Great South West Road and Hatton Green. It passed both these stops normally, even picking up passengers, and no sign of any roadworks.

 

[Busaholic]

I think the Bassom system was effectively abandoned by London Transport when it was formed in 1933 with short workings just using the same unsuffixed number as the full route and suffixes being used for variations to the main route. I guess suffixed routes survived for so long is that Central London bus routes could only be numbered in the 1 to 299 range for many years.

No, the Bassom system was a major part of the London Traffic Act of 1934! I don't offhand remember when it was abandoned, but in the case of the 73 route and its variants it was March 1937 iirc.

 

[busesrusuk]

Noted whilst out and about today that a number of LT's have now been converted to camera mirrors - is this the start of a wholesale programme to replace the wing mirrors with cameras on these vehicles? Noted today were buses of both Transport UK and Stagecoach including this one:

SCoach London LT244 Aug24

Holborn Viaduct, Aug 2024. Note that this bus is now fitted with camera mirrors in place of the traditional wing mirrors.

www.flickr.com

It seems that refurb buses are also receiving digital destinations in place of traditional blinds to:

Arriva London HV283 Jul24

Terminus Place, Victoria. Jul 2024. Following a recent refurb this bus is now fitted with electronic destination displays.

www.flickr.com

 

[Dstock7080]

Yesterday I used the 90 to get from Hatton Cross to Feltham. The TFL site suggests (and still does) that this is on diversion south of Hatton Cross and buses are not serving the stops Great South West Road and Hatton Green. It passed both these stops normally, even picking up passengers, and no sign of any roadworks.

Hatton Road was closed for a week and expected to reopen again on 22 August but was reopened early 16 August.
90 285 490 SL7 were using the diversion.
It was being used to park water/sewage extraction vehicles in the road due to the ongoing problems in the area.

 

[DGP]

No, the Bassom system was a major part of the London Traffic Act of 1934! I don't offhand remember when it was abandoned, but in the case of the 73 route and its variants it was March 1937 iirc.

No, the London Traffic Act was in 1924, it predated London Transport and gave the responsibility of numbering London's bus routes to the Metropolitan Police - it was named after their Commissioner at the time. London Transport was formed as a result of the London Passenger Transport Act in 1933 and took over responsibility for numbering bus routes in central London from the Metropolitan Police and inherited other bus routes from outer London and the immediate 'Country' area, all with their own numbering systems which overlapped with each other. A new unified system was introduced in 1934 which eliminated duplicated numbers and eliminated a major feature of the Bassom system, that of giving a suffix letter to each short workings.

 

[davews]

Hatton Road was closed for a week and expected to reopen again on 22 August but was reopened early 16 August.
90 285 490 SL7 were using the diversion.
It was being used to park water/sewage extraction vehicles in the road due to the ongoing problems in the area.

Thanks.