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London buses have become cashless

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radamfi

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I can see all kinds of problems with that. If the passenger that used their debit or credit card for the other passenger joining the bus, then alights at the next stop and a RPO joins later, how is that passenger going to prove they paid in the absence of the card?

OK, choose a passenger that is going at least as far as you are going. The vast majority of passengers will have a contactless card anyway before long so you are talking about a tiny, tiny minority.

There are many cities where drivers do not sell tickets, but as far as I know, they don't check tickets either. I can't think of anywhere off hand where the driver checks tickets but doesn't sell them. It is time to let the driver just get on with driving and allow ticket inspectors to catch those without a ticket. Quick boarding is top priority, above revenue protection. Before long, that will apply to 600 buses so you might as well let it apply across the network.

The end goal is probably the withdrawal of the Oyster card in favour of contactless bank cards. So no need for ticket machines in Tube stations and no need for Oyster agents. Perhaps newsagents will sell prepaid contactless bank cards by that point, which of course could be used for payment everywhere, not just for transport. Another significant advantage is that processing can be done away from the vehicle, such as using overnight batch processing, unlike smartcards which require processing on-the-fly.
 
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duncanp

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If the end goal is the withdrawal of Oyster Cards in favour of Contactless Cards, what are you going to do about Travelcards? How do you load these onto a Contactless Card.

There would be a huge fuss if TfL tried to withdraw Travelcards in favour of Contactless Cards with Daily/Weekly/Monthly or Annual capping, and a whole lot of other issues would present themselves, such as what would you do if you switched bank accounts/

Personally I do not believe that TfL have a long term goal of withdrawing the Oyster Card, and it wouldn't be very popluar with tourists, particularly those from abroad, if they tried to withdraw cash facilities from tube stations.
 

radamfi

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In terms of Inboundary Travelcards, they are virtually withdrawn already. Off Peak Zones 1 to 2 and Zones 1 to 4 have already been withdrawn and Zones 1 to 6 costs more than the equivalent daily cap. As for Outboundary Travelcards, if the TOCs accept contactless cards as well then they can be replaced, or TfL could continue to accept TOC smartcards or paper Outboundary Travelcards even if the Oyster card has been withdrawn.

I also don't see a change of bank as a problem. You would probably have an account which could allow for a number of cards to be allocated to it. Similar to Tesco Clubcard, where you can have several Clubcards and Clubcard credit cards all earning points for the same account. The contactless card is really just being used as an ID card, so any kind of tariff or incentive scheme could be devised.
 

duncanp

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In terms of Inboundary Travelcards, they are virtually withdrawn already. Off Peak Zones 1 to 2 and Zones 1 to 4 have already been withdrawn and Zones 1 to 6 costs more than the equivalent daily cap.

I was referring to Travelcard Seasons for one week or longer. These have definitely not been "virtually withdrawn" and it would be hugely unpopular if TfL tried to do so.
 

bicbasher

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There will always be some form of Oyster regardless if the standard Adult card is axed.

Children and those adults with basic bank accounts will require Oyster due to the fact that contactless cards require a live connection to the bank to authorise the transaction.

Also those with JCP and Bus and Tram Photocards will still require an Oyster card, unless TfL can authorise those photocards via their online account. Incidentally those with those photocards are more likely to have a basic bank account.
 

radamfi

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I was referring to Travelcard Seasons for one week or longer. These have definitely not been "virtually withdrawn" and it would be hugely unpopular if TfL tried to do so.

Hardly anyone buys Inboundary Travelcard seasons on paper Travelcards now. Pretty much everyone loads their Travelcard onto an Oyster card so it is really just swapping one card for another. Having said that, the main issue is pay as you go, so I could envisage a scenario where pay as you go is replaced by contactless with Oyster remaining for seasons, at least to begin with.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
contactless cards require a live connection to the bank to authorise the transaction.

Surely they don't, given that they can only be used on buses at the moment and buses don't have a live connection? When capping for contactless is fully rolled out, I assume there would be similar security checks as for Oyster. At the moment, the Oyster reader checks that the card isn't blacklisted as stolen or lost. Similarly, a list of contactless cards that didn't get authorised last night could be loaded onto the readers, so the worst loss TfL would suffer would be one day's travel. The reader only needs to read the card number, so a live connection to the bank is not required.
 

PermitToTravel

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You seem to be missing the point. The key is that it costs to have cash handling facilities (not that TfL is too "high and mighty") - these costs are largely fixed and the number of people using cash is declining. So long as you accept cash these costs stay - the cost of somewhere secure at each garage, the secure transfer of this to/from the bank As soon as you accept any cash on buses there are no savings - and with a £5 fare you'd probably have very few people paying it and probably not even covering the cost of handling it.


I doubt most Londoners will be swayed to vote by a promise to reintroduce cash fares (whilst promising to save ticket offices might).

Will TfL actually see any savings from the cessation of the acceptance of cash, or will these savings be made by the operators until route retendering/contract renegotiation?
 

Deerfold

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True, it won't be £8.90, it's £6.45. Pretty much splitting hairs though when the fare was only £2.40.

And you can get most of that refunded - as I said.


I won't argue that there's not other savings that can be made - and some of those posts have already gone. The big savings on salaries seem to be being aimed further down than your list unfortunately.

Will TfL actually see any savings from the cessation of the acceptance of cash, or will these savings be made by the operators until route retendering/contract renegotiation?

TfL will only see the savings when routes are retendered which is why there's a lag before any savings are made by TfL.

Children and those adults with basic bank accounts will require Oyster due to the fact that contactless cards require a live connection to the bank to authorise the transaction.

No. There simply isn't the time to do a check like that in the time the card is against the reader.
 
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Tetchytyke

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I won't argue that there's not other savings that can be made - and some of those posts have already gone. The big savings on salaries seem to be being aimed further down than your list unfortunately.

It's always the way. Such a shame, too.

TfL will only see the savings when routes are retendered which is why there's a lag before any savings are made by TfL.

This is what was bugging me. This means the savings are essentially pie-in-the-sky, as when tendering comes round the bus operators will have forgotten all about the supposed savings from removing cash.

It's a ridiculous situation created by TfL, and I really don't understand why. I think it has to be a political outrider for abolishing cash at ticket offices.
 

radamfi

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This is what was bugging me. This means the savings are essentially pie-in-the-sky, as when tendering comes round the bus operators will have forgotten all about the supposed savings from removing cash.

If you assume that the tendered bus market is competitive, operators who 'forget' about the savings will lose routes to those who don't. Operators will price their bids based on the cost of operation just like they always have.
 

Tom B

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I doubt anybody is under any illusions that TfL decided recently to remove cash; so why didn't they include a clause in all contracts in (say) the last five years to set a different rate when cash was withdrawn as an option?

If you assume that the tendered bus market is competitive, operators who 'forget' about the savings will lose routes to those who don't. Operators will price their bids based on the cost of operation just like they always have.

It isn't truly competitive, though, is it? Even within London, the company will have a fairly good idea who else will bid for the contract, and be able to adjust their bidding as appropriate. A company who has no depots north of the Thames, for example, is unlikely to bid for (say) service 384.

(Outwith London, the companies who bid for a given service can be very limited. In some cases, a route which runs A-B-C may have a tender for the B-C section only, which practically makes any operator other than the incumbent unlikely to tender).
 

Wolfie

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Hardly anyone buys Inboundary Travelcard seasons on paper Travelcards now. Pretty much everyone loads their Travelcard onto an Oyster card so it is really just swapping one card for another. Having said that, the main issue is pay as you go, so I could envisage a scenario where pay as you go is replaced by contactless with Oyster remaining for seasons, at least to begin with.

Really? I'll think you'll find that anyone who buys a Travelcard (whether inboundary or outboundary) from many (I won't say all or even most because my comment doesn't apply to LO for a start) TOCs gets it in paper form. My SWT-issued Annual Z1-2 Goldcard is an example.....
 

jon0844

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If the end goal is the withdrawal of Oyster Cards in favour of Contactless Cards, what are you going to do about Travelcards? How do you load these onto a Contactless Card.

There would be a huge fuss if TfL tried to withdraw Travelcards in favour of Contactless Cards with Daily/Weekly/Monthly or Annual capping, and a whole lot of other issues would present themselves, such as what would you do if you switched bank accounts/

Personally I do not believe that TfL have a long term goal of withdrawing the Oyster Card, and it wouldn't be very popluar with tourists, particularly those from abroad, if they tried to withdraw cash facilities from tube stations.

I don't see any reason to phase out smartcards like Oyster, as they will work on the same readers. Most occasional travellers will use contactless payment cards, with some benefits like capping, while tourists and season ticket holders would benefit from a card that allows them to pre-load credit (no hassle, no worrying about transaction fees/exchange rates on each small payment) or tickets/seasons.
 

radamfi

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It isn't truly competitive, though, is it? Even within London, the company will have a fairly good idea who else will bid for the contract, and be able to adjust their bidding as appropriate. A company who has no depots north of the Thames, for example, is unlikely to bid for (say) service 384.

I don't think anyone would claim London-style tendering is totally competitive. I think Dutch-style tendering would be better, where the depots are owned by the authority and franchises cover whole networks rather than individual routes. However, I don't think many people would dispute that tendering in London has improved services and reduced costs at the same time.

(Outwith London, the companies who bid for a given service can be very limited. In some cases, a route which runs A-B-C may have a tender for the B-C section only, which practically makes any operator other than the incumbent unlikely to tender).

I would agree that tendering outside London is far more flawed than in London. Where a route is tendered in the evening but not in the daytime, the daytime company has a massive advantage.

Really? I'll think you'll find that anyone who buys a Travelcard (whether inboundary or outboundary) from many (I won't say all or even most because my comment doesn't apply to LO for a start) TOCs gets it in paper form. My SWT-issued Annual Z1-2 Goldcard is an example.....

Of course, if you buy a ticket from some TOCs then you will get a paper Travelcard, but I would guess most people would prefer it on Oyster, and presumably some people deliberately avoid getting their ticket from a TOC that doesn't issue the ticket on Oyster.
 

Tom B

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However, I don't think many people would dispute that tendering in London has improved services and reduced costs at the same time.

I do not know enough about London's buses prior to their tendering to comment on whether that's the case, but I would point out that an efficiently run public sector company can do far better than any private contractor - just look at Lothian.

I would agree that tendering outside London is far more flawed than in London. Where a route is tendered in the evening but not in the daytime, the daytime company has a massive advantage.

On the other hand, if another company wins the evening tender, they may be under no obligation to accept the tickets of the first company - such that a passenger who buys an expensive return ticket is then told to pay another fare for the "privilage" of travelling after 5pm!

About 15 years or so ago, an independent won a contract to provide an evening service on the route of a First service. They then realised that, facing acute shortages of drivers, they didn't have the staff to run it - so they sub-contracted it back to First. It gets better - First then refused to accept all day savers "valid on any First bus in the area", on the grounds that despite being a large, pink bus with FIRST written on the side, driven by an employee of First, it "wasn't technically a First service". You couldn't make it up!
 

radamfi

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I do not know enough about London's buses prior to their tendering to comment on whether that's the case, but I would point out that an efficiently run public sector company can do far better than any private contractor - just look at Lothian.

It is not quite the same comparison as Lothian is officially an arms-length company and is supposed to operate commercially. Performance of municipal operators since deregulation has been very variable. Particularly in the first 10 years of deregulation, investment at municipal operators and ex-PTE companies was generally lower than by the emerging major groups. Most of them improved markedly when they sold out to the big groups. The municipals that remain are mostly the best performing ones, obviously Lothian and Nottingham are regularly praised, but some others are nothing special.

London now has the benefit of performance incentives, which weren't possible before tendering.

On the other hand, if another company wins the evening tender, they may be under no obligation to accept the tickets of the first company - such that a passenger who buys an expensive return ticket is then told to pay another fare for the "privilage" of travelling after 5pm!

In some places, a condition of the tender is that they have to accept the daytime company's tickets. But presumably that means that a different company is less likely to win and it increases tender prices.
 
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Deerfold

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It is not quite the same comparison as Lothian is officially an arms-length company and is supposed to operate commercially. Performance of municipal operators since deregulation has been very variable. Particularly in the first 10 years of deregulation, investment at municipal operators and ex-PTE companies was generally lower than by the emerging major groups. Most of them improved markedly when they sold out to the big groups. The municipals that remain are mostly the best performing ones, obviously Lothian and Nottingham are regularly praised, but some others are nothing special.

Nottingham has been successful by following the same route as many non-municipals - it has concentrated on increasing the frequency on many flows and reduced and withdrawn less frequent ones. When I lived in Nottingham, betwen Nottingham and Beeston there were the 12, 13, 37 and 38 each every 15 minutes along with a peak express and an off peak 34 (and a couple of infrequent routes that did not serve the city centre).

Now there's just one route - the 36, every 7/8 minutes (though oddly there's 2 night routes).

London now has the benefit of performance incentives, which weren't possible before tendering.

And it took some years to get that right (and more before all routes were monitored elecronically rather than a small sample manually).
 

Robertj21a

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Nottingham has been successful by following the same route as many non-municipals - it has concentrated on increasing the frequency on many flows and reduced and withdrawn less frequent ones. When I lived in Nottingham, betwen Nottingham and Beeston there were the 12, 13, 37 and 38 each every 15 minutes along with a peak express and an off peak 34 (and a couple of infrequent routes that did not serve the city centre).

Now there's just one route - the 36, every 7/8 minutes (though oddly there's 2 night routes).



And it took some years to get that right (and more before all routes were monitored elecronically rather than a small sample manually).


Congratulations on your 6,000th posting !
 

Busaholic

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Nottingham has been successful by following the same route as many non-municipals - it has concentrated on increasing the frequency on many flows and reduced and withdrawn less frequent ones. When I lived in Nottingham, betwen Nottingham and Beeston there were the 12, 13, 37 and 38 each every 15 minutes along with a peak express and an off peak 34 (and a couple of infrequent routes that did not serve the city centre).

Now there's just one route - the 36, every 7/8 minutes (though oddly there's 2 night routes).



And it took some years to get that right (and more before all routes were monitored elecronically rather than a small sample manually).

Don't see how replacing four different routes each operating every 15 minutes with one operating every 7/8 minutes increases the flow - 16 bph becomes 8bph. Although perhaps all four buses came along at the same times!
 

Deerfold

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Don't see how replacing four different routes each operating every 15 minutes with one operating every 7/8 minutes increases the flow - 16 bph becomes 8bph. Although perhaps all four buses came along at the same times!

It increases the number of buses on that flow (the 38 had 4bph, the 36 has 8bph) as the expense of other flows as the buses took different routes. In this case it has resulted in fewer buses overall.
 
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londonbridge

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Was on a bus Friday morning, saw three passengers with neither bank cards nor Oysters successfully blag a free ride from the driver. One of them argued that she intended to buy a travelcard for the rest of the day but needed to go the three stops into town so that she could get one!
 

a729

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Nottingham has been successful by following the same route as many non-municipals - it has concentrated on increasing the frequency on many flows and reduced and withdrawn less frequent ones. When I lived in Nottingham, betwen Nottingham and Beeston there were the 12, 13, 37 and 38 each every 15 minutes along with a peak express and an off peak 34 (and a couple of infrequent routes that did not serve the city centre).

Now there's just one route - the 36, every 7/8 minutes (though oddly there's 2 night routes).



And it took some years to get that right (and more before all routes were monitored elecronically rather than a small sample manually).


Did you mean route 13 rather than 12)?The 13 went from Nottingham to Beeston via Castle Bridge and Nottingham University grounds? Discontinued around Summer 2013
 

Deerfold

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Did you mean route 13 rather than 12)?The 13 went from Nottingham to Beeston via Castle Bridge and Nottingham University grounds? Discontinued around Summer 2013

That was a newer 13 than I was talking about.

In the mid nineties the 12 went from Beeston Bus Station, High Road, Broadgate, University Bvd, Clifton Bvd, Derby Road, through Nottingham and on to West Bridgford.

The 13 went from Beeston Imperial Road, Queens Road, University Bvd, Castle Bvd.

The 38 was very like today's 36 except for the route to Chilwell being via Devonshire Avenue and Bramcote Avenue (as the 36 was for a while).

The 37 went from Beeston Imperial Road, Woolaton Road, Dennis Avenue, Brook Road and Derby Road.
 

a729

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That was a newer 13 than I was talking about.

In the mid nineties the 12 went from Beeston Bus Station, High Road, Broadgate, University Bvd, Clifton Bvd, Derby Road, through Nottingham and on to West Bridgford.

The 13 went from Beeston Imperial Road, Queens Road, University Bvd, Castle Bvd.

The 38 was very like today's 36 except for the route to Chilwell being via Devonshire Avenue and Bramcote Avenue (as the 36 was for a while).

The 37 went from Beeston Imperial Road, Woolaton Road, Dennis Avenue, Brook Road and Derby Road.

Ironically it seems the service has decreased despite a rise in Nottingham' population - it's a common trend outside London but Nottingham is supposed to be one of the better cities!

The 37 I knew of (the one to QMC has been discontinued as well last year)
 

Hadders

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I was on a train from Cardiff-Paddington earlier on today which was held at Southall due to a fatality at Ealing Broadway. The guard released the doors and advised passengers that they could alight here and make their way via taxi/bus (at their own expense) if it was easier for them, as the length of delay was unknown.

I made my way to the front of the station and worked out that I could get to Greenford station on a number 105 bus whre I could pick up the Central Line. I had a travelcard as part of my combination of tickets so I was covered as far as the bus and tube was concerned.

At the bus stop there were several other passengers from the train who assumed they could pay their fare in cash. These would be people who would never have thought they would be using the bus that day. It caused much faff with the driver having to explain to every passenger that they needed an Oyster card or contactless payment card.

I may have missed it but is there signage at every bus stop stating that you can't pay cash? Ideally it should also give the details of the nearest place where an Oyster card can be purchased.

I am generally in favour of the buses being cashless in London but I do wonder what the impression of my fellow passengers would have been.
 

Busaholic

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I was on a train from Cardiff-Paddington earlier on today which was held at Southall due to a fatality at Ealing Broadway. The guard released the doors and advised passengers that they could alight here and make their way via taxi/bus (at their own expense) if it was easier for them, as the length of delay was unknown.

I made my way to the front of the station and worked out that I could get to Greenford station on a number 105 bus whre I could pick up the Central Line. I had a travelcard as part of my combination of tickets so I was covered as far as the bus and tube was concerned.

At the bus stop there were several other passengers from the train who assumed they could pay their fare in cash. These would be people who would never have thought they would be using the bus that day. It caused much faff with the driver having to explain to every passenger that they needed an Oyster card or contactless payment card.



I am generally in favour of the buses being cashless in London but I do wonder what the impression of my fellow passengers would have been.

Impression would probably be generally unimpressed, and rightly so in my opinion. The whole experience might lead some to travel by car on such a journey in future.
 

hassaanhc

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I was on a train from Cardiff-Paddington earlier on today which was held at Southall due to a fatality at Ealing Broadway. The guard released the doors and advised passengers that they could alight here and make their way via taxi/bus (at their own expense) if it was easier for them, as the length of delay was unknown.

I made my way to the front of the station and worked out that I could get to Greenford station on a number 105 bus whre I could pick up the Central Line. I had a travelcard as part of my combination of tickets so I was covered as far as the bus and tube was concerned.

At the bus stop there were several other passengers from the train who assumed they could pay their fare in cash. These would be people who would never have thought they would be using the bus that day. It caused much faff with the driver having to explain to every passenger that they needed an Oyster card or contactless payment card.

I may have missed it but is there signage at every bus stop stating that you can't pay cash? Ideally it should also give the details of the nearest place where an Oyster card can be purchased.

I am generally in favour of the buses being cashless in London but I do wonder what the impression of my fellow passengers would have been.

Impression would probably be generally unimpressed, and rightly so in my opinion. The whole experience might lead some to travel by car on such a journey in future.
Most bus stops do have a map showing the nearest locations that do Oyster, but likely haven't been updated with the latest info regarding no cash fares on buses. In the case of Southall, the shop inside the station building does Oyster (£5 deposit for card plus however much money you want to put on it), or a paper Z1-6 travelcard at £8.90 from the machine or ticket office. Last time I was there (Wednesday) the bus stop on the bridge was closed, and you'd have to walk down the bridge to the next stop (although with queuing traffic many drivers do open the doors). I'm not sure about the nearest locations by that stop.
 
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