London - Leeds Inter City stopping at South Elmsall

[davetheguard]

Back sometime in the period 1974 - 1976 I distinctly remember catching a mid morning class 47-hauled train from Kings Cross to Leeds on a Saturday morning every two weeks or so that stopped en route at SOUTH ELMSALL.

I also think it may have gone via Normanton, but I'm less sure of that.

Can anyone confirm that it did happen and that I'm not going bonkers; it seems so unlikely now?

Also, was it just the one train, or did other ICs stop at South Elmsall too? And was it timetabled to go via Normanton, or am I just remembering an occasional diversion?

 

[D1009]

I don't think it was a Kings Cross - Leeds, it sounds like one of the many summer Saturday loco hauled holiday trains of the period. I remember doing one of them to Moorthorpe to walk to South Elmsall to catch it!

 

[davetheguard]

I don't think it was a Kings Cross - Leeds, it sounds like one of the many summer Saturday loco hauled holiday trains of the period.

No, it had definitely come from Kings Cross, as I said I used to catch it regularly from London to Leeds. It had a buffet car too.

 

[Mugby]

I also think it may have gone via Normanton, but I'm less sure of that.



Also, was it just the one train, or did other ICs stop at South Elmsall too? And was it timetabled to go via Normanton, or am I just remembering an occasional diversion?

Do you mean by going off at Hare Park and via the East curve at Kirkgate?

 

[davetheguard]

Do you mean by going off at Hare Park and via the East curve at Kirkgate?

Consults Baker's Bible........

Yes, I guess so, unless there was some other route there then that no longer exists now?

If it did regularly go via Normanton, could the South Elmsall stop have been there to enable Wakefield Westgate passengers to change on to a following DMU?

 

[eastwestdivide]

You're not going bonkers (well on this piece of evidence anyway).
My 1978 all line timetable shows the 1045 from KX to Harrogate (via Leeds) stopping at South Elmsall at 1259 Saturdays only. Buffet available.
As the other posters have said, South Elmsall's other services were infrequent local services between Leeds-Doncaster, and also summer Saturday seaside trains.
It was the only "local" station between Doncaster and Leeds then, with no Bentley, Adwick, Fitzwilliam, Sandal & Agbrigg or Outwood, all of which opened or reopened later.

Edit: on the routing, it was 1247 Doncaster, 1259 SE, 1312-1313 Wakefield Westgate, 1331 Leeds. Only a couple of minutes different to the timings of other (KX)-Doncaster-Leeds expresses, so I don't think it could have been routed differently.
Can't see any other ICs stopping at SE either. (Edit 2: it also shows a 1330 (Mon-Sat) from Doncaster via SE to Leeds, same route and slightly slower timings, with a buffet car marked, but it's not in table 26 from KX, or any others that I can see. Could be a mistaken buffet symbol in the timetable)

 

[flymo]

Back sometime in the period 1974 - 1976 I distinctly remember catching a mid morning class 47-hauled train from Kings Cross to Leeds on a Saturday morning every two weeks or so that stopped en route at SOUTH ELMSALL.

I also think it may have gone via Normanton, but I'm less sure of that.

Can anyone confirm that it did happen and that I'm not going bonkers; it seems so unlikely now?

Also, was it just the one train, or did other ICs stop at South Elmsall too? And was it timetabled to go via Normanton, or am I just remembering an occasional diversion?

No you are not bonkers...

Saturdays only 10:20 off KX according to the '75 - '76 TT.
Called at:
Stevenage 1048
Huntingdon 1115
Peterborough 1135
Grantham 1203
Newark 1218
Retford 1236
Doncaster 1258
South Elmsall 1317
Wakefield W 1330
Leeds 1351

Not shown as going via Normanton during the currency of that TT. Mon - Fri did not call at South Elmsall

The only other Inter-City service I can see calling there was the Mon - Sat 21:20 Bradford Exchange - KX which called at South Elmsall at 22:53 and got into KX at 03:20. Now that was my sort of train way back when....

 

[davetheguard]

No you are not bonkers...

Saturdays only 10:20 off KX according to the '75 - '76 TT.
Called at:
Stevenage 1048
Huntingdon 1115
Peterborough 1135
Grantham 1203
Newark 1218
Retford 1236
Doncaster 1258
South Elmsall 1317
Wakefield W 1330
Leeds 1351

Not shown as going via Normanton during the currency of that TT. Mon - Fri did not call at South Elmsall

The only other Inter-City service I can see calling there was the Mon - Sat 21:20 Bradford Exchange - KX which called at South Elmsall at 22:53 and got into KX at 03:20. Now that was my sort of train way back when....

Thanks to everyone who has helped to dispel the mists of time on this one; and I'm glad I can cancel the straightjacket & padded cell!

By the way, I wonder if 47s were the usual traction on Leeds' trains then; or did Deltics share the work? I certainly remember it always being a 47 on this particular train.

 

[30907]

Not many Deltics on the Leeds route pre HSTs

The Leeds Exec (1555 KGX) was Deltic+8 (to keep it in front of the 1600 Edin) while the Bradford at 1605 had a 47. I think the morning flier (0750? KX) was another, and was there one at 1130? - plus balancing up workings. There may have been 1-2 more, but equally I can recall 40's and Peaks on lesser services.

 

[dk1]

Its amazing how things change. Travelling from Peterborough to Leeds in the 90s you knew you could easilly get a seat anytime. Then the service was hourly at best & even had 2-hour gaps on Sundays. Some trips of late with half-hourly & at least hourly on Sundays have seen very well loaded trains.

 

[D6975]

47401-420 and 47518-528 plus a few other 47s
were the locos most likely to work KX Leeds services back in just pre-HST days, with the odd Deltic thrown in here and there.
Forward to Harrogate or Bradford would often be one of Holbeck's 31/4s rather than a type 4 or 5.
They used to make one hell of a racket departing on the down Yorkshire Pullman.

 

[Welshman]

Not many Deltics on the Leeds route pre HSTs

The Leeds Exec (1555 KGX) was Deltic+8 (to keep it in front of the 1600 Edin) while the Bradford at 1605 had a 47. I think the morning flier (0750? KX) was another, and was there one at 1130? - plus balancing up workings. There may have been 1-2 more, but equally I can recall 40's and Peaks on lesser services.

One of the balancing "up" workings was the 7am Bradford Exchange/7.30am Leeds Central to Kings Cross. The Deltic came on at Leeds, and worked to Kings Cross in just 3 hours, with one call at Wakefield Westgate.

Later, Bradford gained its own through train "The Bradford Executive" which used the Wortley curve to avoid Holbeck and Leeds. I seem to remember this was also initially "Deltic" hauled, until one day the loco split the track of the sidings at Bradford whilst collecting the stock!

"The Deltics - A Symposium" by C.J.Allen, G.F.Fiennes, Roger Ford and others, also mentions the following West Riding diagram scheduled for Deltic haulage in the 1971/72 timetable:-

0755 Kings Cross - Leeds,
1221 Leeds - Kings Cross,
1705 Kings Cross - Leeds,
2200 Leeds - Kings Cross.

This diagram involved a particularly quick turn-round and refuelling at Kings Cross. The 1221 ex Leeds was due at Kings Cross at 1500, and the stock formed the 1555 return. So the incoming locomotive could not be released from the platform until 1600, which left only just over an hour for it to be shunted over to the refuelling bay, refuelled and shunted back on to its train - all during an increasingly-busy station throat as the tea-time rush hour approached!

 

[theblackwatch]

47401-420 and 47518-528 plus a few other 47s
were the locos most likely to work KX Leeds services back in just pre-HST days, with the odd Deltic thrown in here and there.
Forward to Harrogate or Bradford would often be one of Holbeck's 31/4s rather than a type 4 or 5.
They used to make one hell of a racket departing on the down Yorkshire Pullman.

And a few years earlier, a Class 24 would do the Harrogate portion. Oh for that Tardis!

 

[D6975]

I've been racking my ageing brain cells trying to remember what numbers the Holbeck 31/4s were. I'm pretty sure that there were 3 of them and that 31417 was one. The other 2 I distinctly recall were consecutive numbers but I'm not sure what. I have an inkling that they were 31409 and 31410, anyone else know for sure? It's bugging me that I can't remember for certain what they were.

 

[bILLOO]

So IC trains use to call at Huntingdon? Didn't know that!

 

[eastwestdivide]

I've been racking my ageing brain cells trying to remember what numbers the Holbeck 31/4s were. I'm pretty sure that there were 3 of them and that 31417 was one. The other 2 I distinctly recall were consecutive numbers but I'm not sure what. I have an inkling that they were 31409 and 31410, anyone else know for sure? It's bugging me that I can't remember for certain what they were.

My Ian Allan Locoshed Book 1977 gives 31409, 31410, 31417 as the HO ones, so the brain cells aren't too bad.
There were 24 31/4s at the time, 11 FP Finsbury Park, 2 GD Gateshead, 3 HO Holbeck, 8 OC Old Oak Common. Pencilled into the book are reallocations of 7 to BR Bristol Bath Road, of which 4 from OC and 3 from FP.

 

[D6975]

My Ian Allan Locoshed Book 1977 gives 31409, 31410, 31417 as the HO ones, so the brain cells aren't too bad.
There were 24 31/4s at the time, 11 FP Finsbury Park, 2 GD Gateshead, 3 HO Holbeck, 8 OC Old Oak Common. Pencilled into the book are reallocations of 7 to BR Bristol Bath Road, of which 4 from OC and 3 from FP.

Thanks for that, the grey cells aren't quite as atrophied as I feared...