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London Midland to Run Birmingham Moor Street - Gloucester?

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sprinterguy

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Hereford-B'ham services can go to XC using 170s
Aye, that would work just as well as routing it out of Snow Hill. I'd forgotten that I'd suggested similar earlier on! That would make more sense as XC already operate a number of 170s anyway (even though they are technically identical to Chilterns' 168s) out of Tyseley, so it would be easy enough to transfer LMs' six 170/6s across to XC to operate the route.

What I'd really like to see is a Hereford to Lincoln service by linking the Hereford-Birmingham and Birmingham-Nottingham services together, with an extension through to Lincoln.
 
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anthony263

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Same unit that I saw at Cheltenham Spa Yesterday Afternoon.. around 1211. so what's the purpouse of this run?

Thats what some of us are trying to figure out. As i said in my previous post there are rumours that London Midland are looking at running a Kidderminster - Gloucester service from December.

If it is true then they could possibly be doing some driver training.
 

Class172

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Why don't we all contact the TOCs (or whoever it is) on-masse about these ideas
 

tbtc

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As i said in my previous post there are rumours that London Midland are looking at running a Kidderminster - Gloucester service from December

A few weeks ago we were hearing that LM were desperate for stock on the Snow Hill lines and wanted to keep some (more) of their 150s instead of cascading them to Northern/ATW/FGW because they needed all the stock they could get...

...now we find they have spare DMUs to introduce new (to LM) services?

Hmm...
 

Class172

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A few weeks ago we were hearing that LM were desperate for stock on the Snow Hill lines and wanted to keep some (more) of their 150s instead of cascading them to Northern/ATW/FGW because they needed all the stock they could get...

...now we find they have spare DMUs to introduce new (to LM) services?

Hmm...
I have a feeling it's that they have a shortage of snow hill type stock (150s) but have an excess of semi-fast stock (170s)
 

sprinterguy

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Any new Gloucester service will be 170s though, whereas the Snow Hill lines are 150s, soon to be 172s, and it seems set in London Midlands' mind that never the twain shall meet, despite their being a lack of one and an excess of the other.

Which seems odd when the Snow Hill lines will soon be the sole preserve of another class of the Turbostar family
 

sonic2009

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So a Calling Pattern of :

Birmingham Moor Street
Birmingham Snow Hill
Jewleery Quarter
The Hawthorns
Smethwick Galton Bridge
Rowley Regis
Cradley Heath
Stourbridge Junction
Kidderminster
Droitwich Spa
Worcester Shrub Hill
Ashchurch for Tewkesbury
Cheltenham Spa
Gloucester
 

anthony263

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So a Calling Pattern of :

Birmingham Moor Street
Birmingham Snow Hill
Jewleery Quarter
The Hawthorns
Smethwick Galton Bridge
Rowley Regis
Cradley Heath
Stourbridge Junction
Kidderminster
Droitwich Spa
Worcester Shrub Hill
Ashchurch for Tewkesbury
Cheltenham Spa
Gloucester

They might be able to run a kidderminster - Gloucester service but would they be allowed to run a service from Gloucester - Birmingham Moor St ? especially since it would provide some competition to crosscountry ( then again there is only an hourly service from Gloucester to Birmingham compared to 3 from Cheltenham Spa).

I hope they can time it better than their last attempt to run a service between Worcester & gloucester.

Anyway i wsh them good luck if this talk about a new service comes off.

As for them being short of stock, could they get permission to order more class 172's?
 

The Planner

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Bromsgrove is seeing a complete station redevelopment as well as the extension of electrification from Longbridge in the CP5 period (hopefully), so it'll become part of the Cross City line commuter service (Meaning LM is going to need some additional EMUs: Be it the rest of the 323s when Northern gets 319s or 319s from Thameslink allowing LMs' 323s to move to Northern).

No need, extensions to Bromsgrove and Redditch don't need extra units, thats already been proven.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Had an email from one of my freinds saying that London Midland were looking at running a Kidderminster - Gloucester service from december 2011 and that is also what is being said on some other railway forums.

Not sure if its true or not, wouldnt London Midland have put out a press release or something?

Not seen any bids for it from LM yet. Certainly wasnt in the Dec 11 offer.
 

sonic2009

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Who runs this route for the moment ?

London Midland operate only as far as Worcester Shrub Hill, except with the Fridays Only Birmingham New - Gloucester.

First Great Western Operate Great Malvern - Gloucester and Beyond. 2 hourly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No need, extensions to Bromsgrove and Redditch don't need extra units, thats already been proven.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Not seen any bids for it from LM yet. Certainly wasnt in the Dec 11 offer.

So if not in the DEC 11 offer, why are London Midland having a 170 run tests ?
 

sprinterguy

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As for them being short of stock, could they get permission to order more class 172's?
Yes, there's an option in their order for an additional 26 class 172 vehicles, if the DfT were minded to approve it and LM were minded to take it up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No need, extensions to Bromsgrove and Redditch don't need extra units, thats already been proven.
Ah fair enough, that's all sorted then.
 

tbtc

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Yes, there's an option in their order for an additional 26 class 172 vehicles, if the DfT were minded to approve it and LM were minded to take it up

I guess these would be to allow the release of three three-car 150s (and not to release any other units)?

Wish they ordered enough to replace their 170s mind
 

sprinterguy

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I guess these would be to allow the release of three three-car 150s (and not to release any other units)?

Wish they ordered enough to replace their 170s mind
Speculatively, yeah I guess any additional 172 vehicles would only replace any 150s that LM were otherwise looking to retain.

It would be nice if 172s could be passed for the Bedford-Bletchley line, as they could then be used on that route and on the Coventry-Nuneaton shuttle and replace all of LMs' 153s. Using a 172 on Bedford-Bletchley would also be helpful for the ECS move up the WCML at weekends, being able to reach 100mph rather than a maximum of 75.

The Bedford-Bletchley route is really daft anyway from a stock point of view: A diesel shuttle service that requires a massively lengthy ECS move over one of Britains' fastest main lines every weekend to return the stock to Tyseley, and has no relation to the deployment of the rest of the LM 150/153 fleet at all. It really needs electrifying ASAP.

Additionally, on the subject of Chiltern taking over the Snow Hill local lines, is anyone else amused by the thought of a 153 in Chiltern livery? :lol:
 

Class172

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Do you want me to make one in trainz? I'm more concerned what the PPM on the Stourbridge branch will look like!
 

87015

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Speculatively, yeah I guess any additional 172 vehicles would only replace any 150s that LM were otherwise looking to retain.

It would be nice if 172s could be passed for the Bedford-Bletchley line, as they could then be used on that route and on the Coventry-Nuneaton shuttle and replace all of LMs' 153s. Using a 172 on Bedford-Bletchley would also be helpful for the ECS move up the WCML at weekends, being able to reach 100mph rather than a maximum of 75.

The Bedford-Bletchley route is really daft anyway from a stock point of view: A diesel shuttle service that requires a massively lengthy ECS move over one of Britains' fastest main lines every weekend to return the stock to Tyseley, and has no relation to the deployment of the rest of the LM 150/153 fleet at all. It really needs electrifying ASAP.

Additionally, on the subject of Chiltern taking over the Snow Hill local lines, is anyone else amused by the thought of a 153 in Chiltern livery? :lol:

Overblowing that a bit. A 73 mile Bletchley-Tyseley ECS move is nothing really and 75mph is perfectly fine for it, as thats far faster than the average speed of the passenger trains it'll only get stuck behind if it runs during the day, but as it runs at night when there is only freight around its gets a clear run anyway. Of course if Bletchley was still open rather than wasting millions on a pointless new Siemens shed at Northamptonand paying through the nose for the 350s they could be fuelled there, but such is progress.

There are far far worse ECS moves, just look at some of the stuff that comes out of Central Rivers and that was all planned out of a new build depot with far more fuel thirsty units.
 

sprinterguy

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Overblowing that a bit. A 73 mile Bletchley-Tyseley ECS move is nothing really and 75mph is perfectly fine for it, as thats far faster than the average speed of the passenger trains it'll only get stuck behind if it runs during the day, but as it runs at night when there is only freight around its gets a clear run anyway. Of course if Bletchley was still open rather than wasting millions on a pointless new Siemens shed at Northamptonand paying through the nose for the 350s they could be fuelled there, but such is progress.

There are far far worse ECS moves, just look at some of the stuff that comes out of Central Rivers and that was all planned out of a new build depot with far more fuel thirsty units.
Isn’t the northbound ECS run during the day on a Sunday? I passed the LM 150+153 combo on the WCML when I was heading down to London one Sunday lunchtime.

Bedford – Bletchley is ”out on a limb” and not at all linked in to the duties performed by the rest of the LM 150 and 153 fleet: In terms of a theoretical Chiltern take-over of the Snow Hill lines and hence the entire 150 (Soon to be 172) and 153 fleet, Bedford – Bletchley would be a massively incongruous outpost of their operations.
 

asylumxl

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I don't see anything wrong with the Marston Vale line. LM operates slow services on tthe WCML and most passengers travel onwards on their services from Bletchley, so it makes sense to me.
 

swt_passenger

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DMU operation of Bedford - Bletchley by Chiltern as part of East West rail, is possibly the only change in the medium term, and probably more likely than electrification of the branch given the way they calculate the BCRs.
 

moggie

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Can't see a Kiddy - Gloucester service until a signalled turnback is provided southbound at Kiddy. Wouldn't imagine this will happen until the Hartlebury Stourbridge resignalling is complete.

Then there is a question of the old capacity issues Droitwich - Worcs TJ. A new IB section was put in to address existing timetable unreliability - not sure if you could thread another service in at certain times of the day.

Not many years ago under Central Trains we had direct Nottm - Cardiff via Worcs trains. The service reliability Southbound was shocking due to timekeeping issues from the east hence the decision to split it into two discreet services at New St. Users from those days will remember delays at New St of anything up to an hour being common. Subsequent franchise changes placed Cardiff in the new XC area and redirected the service to Hereford under LM.

Not only did reliability improve but an almost clockface fast service from Worcester (and stations west of) and Droitwich / Bromsgrove to Birmingham via University (far more popular useage than the alternative via Snow Hill) was established. Any proposal to route trains via Kiddy to Snow Hill (already 2/ hour off peak) instead of Bromsgrove will be a throw back to the late 80's, would be perverse as service would have to follow frequent all stations Worcs / Stourbridge services into Birmingham SH.

Transfer of Worcester terminators to Chiltern and Hereford via Worcs services to XC is doable I suppose although an increase journey time for Aschurch, Cheltenham and Gloucster passengers would result and possible crowding as existing LM trains via Bromsgrove already load a 3 car well. I really fail to see the benefit of taking LM out as it is they who have developed the service to Worcester to it's present day populat useage.

My view - LM Kiddy to Gloucester - good idea if demand exists once infrastructure improvements allow at Kiddy and Droitwich - Worcs.

New station at Bromsgrove would serve as new Cross City start point - extended lenght Hereford trains call at bromsgrove as Cross City interchange station / fast services North / South for Bromsgrove passengers - LM operated (as they also operate Cross City on behalf of WMPTE).
 
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Class172

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Then there is a question of the old capacity issues Droitwich - Worcs TJ. A new IB section was put in to address existing timetable unreliability - not sure if you could thread another service in at certain times of the day.
It would be a bit tight at certain times of the day, especially around 18:00 where there are 2 New St and 3 Snow Hill trains (bound for Worcester).

Not many years ago under Central Trains we had direct Nottm - Cardiff via Worcs trains. The service reliability Southbound was shocking due to timekeeping issues from the east hence the decision to split it into two discreet services at New St. Users from those days will remember delays at New St of anything up to an hour being common. Subsequent franchise changes placed Cardiff in the new XC area and redirected the service to Hereford under LM.
That reminds me of the XC via Worcester thread where everyone had a go at me saying the service never existed! :)

Not only did reliability improve but an almost clockface fast service from Worcester (and stations west of) and Droitwich / Bromsgrove to Birmingham via University (far more popular useage than the alternative via Snow Hill) was established. Any proposal to route trains via Kiddy to Snow Hill (already 2/ hour off peak) instead of Bromsgrove will be a throw back to the late 80's, would be perverse as service would have to follow frequent all stations Worcs / Stourbridge services into Birmingham SH
Agreed

Transfer of Worcester terminators to Chiltern and Hereford via Worcs services to XC is doable I suppose although an increase journey time for Aschurch, Cheltenham and Gloucster passengers would result and possible crowding as existing LM trains via Bromsgrove already load a 3 car well. I really fail to see the benefit of taking LM out as it is they who have developed the service to Worcester to it's present day populat useage
it would be easier to transfer Snow Hill lines to Chiltern as it's pretty self contained than HFD services to XC.

My view - LM Kiddy to Gloucester - good idea if demand exists once infrastructure improvements allow at Kiddy and Droitwich - Worcs.

New station at Bromsgrove would serve as new Cross City start point - extended lenght Hereford trains call at bromsgrove as Cross City interchange station / fast services North / South for Bromsgrove passengers - LM operated (as they also operate Cross City on behalf of WMPTE).
Yes, infrastucture improvements are needed on this area, but that won't be sorted out for another 10 years most likely.

Yes, the longer HFD-BHM trains have so skip out Bromsgrove currently, but that's a bonus for me as the service is quicker and is less overcrowded (even though they're jam packed!)
 

newtownmgr

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170507 was engaged in passing out 3 worcester link 2 drivers on worcester-gloucester for the friday only service.

LM are NOT intending to reintroduce a gloucester service and would dearly like to dump the friday train if they could (it's part of LM's minimum psr).LM tried to dump it when they stopped the rest of the trains but Dft told them to run it even though FGW where willing to cover it.

It is planned to do 172 training for worcester crews between stourbridge & gloucester with the instructor drivers route conducting link1 drivers (instructors are the only current link 1 men at worcs to sign gloucs, although Link 1 used to cover the cardiff - nott's service working throughout on a couple of trains).
 

Batman

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Routing Hereford services into Snow Hill would be a massive step backwards. The existing 90 minute end to end journey time would be extended and services would become more overcrowded (especially at peak times). Although I supose there could still be one or two New Street - Hereford trains in each paeak with Snow Hill trains terminating at Worcester or Malvern.

And is there really a need for an hourly service at Ashchurch? London Midland introduced a two hourly Gloucester - Worcester shuttle service in December 2008 to fill the gaps in First Great Westerns two hourly Worcester - Bristol service. This was withdrwan after 12months due to low passenger numbers.

And it soesn't address the problems at Bromsgrove. In fact, there will be fewer trains at Bromsgrove in the peaks if they are diverted via Stourbridge, although (as stated above), there could still be one or two Hereford - New Street services in the peaks. I assume the new Birmingham - Gloucester service will be opperate using 2 and 3 car 170's, so as long as 4 car units are not used, this could lead to a slight increase in the number of trains calling at Bromsgrove in the peaks.

But it does not address a key problem. There will still only be one train per hour from Worcester to New Street in the off peak period, and this will now call at Shrub Hill instead of Forgate Street. There is desperate need for a second hourly off peak service from Worcester to Birmingham. This can be done using existing rolling stock and on existing infrastructure using the 170's that are stabled at Tysley during the day. The proposals in the draft RUS are for a half hourly Tamworth - Worcester cross city service with hourly extensions to Hereford. This can't come into effect untill a bay platform and crossover are consturcted at Tamworth and the Water Orton area is re-modeld. But it is perfectly possible within the existing timetable, al-be-it with some tight 6 minute turnaround times at New Street, for a half houtly New Street - Worcester service to start opperating in December 2012. It could even opperate alongside the new Gloucester - Worcester - Birmingham service, with one train an hour running through Shrub Hill and one terminating at Forgate Street. But I guess that would require extra rolling stock because the 170's I mentioned earlier will probably need to be used for the Gloucester service.

But as I already mentioned, there is little demand for a hourly Worcester - Gloucester service, so these units could be put to better use on a half hourly New Street - Worcester service with Hereford trains continuing to opperate in and out of New Street. Ashchurch can have an hourly service to Birmingham just by providing a stop in the Nottingham - Cardiff service and this service can stop at Bromsgorve as well to provide a 3tph off peak service once issues regarding turnaround times at Cardiff have been resolved. And all this can be done regardless of wheather or not the cross city line extension to Bromsgrove goes ahead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Speculatively, yeah I guess any additional 172 vehicles would only replace any 150s that LM were otherwise looking to retain.

It would be nice if 172s could be passed for the Bedford-Bletchley line, as they could then be used on that route and on the Coventry-Nuneaton shuttle and replace all of LMs' 153s. Using a 172 on Bedford-Bletchley would also be helpful for the ECS move up the WCML at weekends, being able to reach 100mph rather than a maximum of 75.

The Bedford-Bletchley route is really daft anyway from a stock point of view: A diesel shuttle service that requires a massively lengthy ECS move over one of Britains' fastest main lines every weekend to return the stock to Tyseley, and has no relation to the deployment of the rest of the LM 150/153 fleet at all. It really needs electrifying ASAP.

Additionally, on the subject of Chiltern taking over the Snow Hill local lines, is anyone else amused by the thought of a 153 in Chiltern livery? :lol:

They could use the extra 172's to replace the 170's and 153-170 combi's on the Chase Line. This would release one or two 153's to FGW or Northern and three 2 car and one 3 car 170 for use on the new Tamworth - Worcester - Hereford cross city service once that starts opperating.

Also, does anyone know exactly how many EMU's LM will need for the cross city line once Redditch and Bromsgrove start getting 3tph. And there are still 6 trains on the cross city line ariving at New Street in the morning high peak that are still formed of 3 coaches (4 starting at Longbridge, 1 at Four Oaks and 1 at Lichfield City). In my opinion thses urgently need to be lengthened to 6 coaches, although the draft RUS says there is no business case for extra units on the cross city line north of Birmingham in the morning peak. Will all these rolling stock requirements be met by the 17 323's being transfered to LM from Northern in 2014, or will there still be 3 car trains on the cross city in the long term?
 

The Planner

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Tamworth wont happen, no business case for it and no re-modelling is happening as part of Water Orton apart from re-doubling Park Lane.
 

Batman

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Tamworth wont happen, no business case for it and no re-modelling is happening as part of Water Orton apart from re-doubling Park Lane.

There was a strong business case for it in the draft RUS once rolling stock becomes available and infrastructure improvements are compleated. They've even worked out the platform allocations at New Street for it.

I've heared on other forums and from official sources (NR and Centro) that the Water Orton re-modelling will be a lot more radical.

The line will be four tracked between Catle Bromwich and Water Orton, a disused freight line will be brought back into use and one of the freight lines will be upgraded to passenge standard will a 90 MPH limit all the way to Landor Street. The tracks will be far enough apart to allow for the construction of island platforms at possible new stations at Castle Bromwich and Fort Parkway. Both the cords on the Sutton Park line will be doubled, a fourth track will be added through Water Orton station with 60 mph cross overs so that trains using the slow lines from Landor Street can access the Derby line to the west or Water Orton, as well as cross overs so that freight from the Sutton Park line can still accress the Nuneaton Line. There will be a 3rd platform at Water Orton station on the northbound Derby line as well as a new run around tract at Kingsbury oil terminal so that the locos don't have to run around on the main line. The new stations at Kingsbury, Castle Bromwich and Fort Parkway will probably be built at a latter date.

The project have have been cancled and I haven't found out about it yet, but that was the last I heard about it. They'd penciled in 2019 as a start date. My guess is that the stopping pattern will be somthing like this:

Train 1 (xx19 departure from New Street): Tamworth, Wilnecote, Water Orton, Birmingham New Street, University, Bromsgrove, Droitwich Spa, Worcester Forgate Street.

Train 2 (xx49 departure from New Street): Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Bromsgrove, Droitwich Spa, Worcester Forgate Street, Malvern Link, Great Malvern, Colwall, Ledbury, Hereford.
 
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