London Northwestern removing First Class from May?

[Chiltern006]

mods feel free to move the thread if it’s not in the right place

Been looking through RealtimeTrains to see if London Northwestern has any changes, and I noticed on a lot of services that it said “standard class only” seating. Is this a hint to the removal of First Class like Southeastern in December, or has it just been put in incorrectly? See attached for one of the examples

Thanks a lot

 

[Intercity110]

You can still buy 1st class tickets for after may, i’ve just checked.

 

[Class 170101]

I guess the new Class 730s will be standard Class only like the GA / c2c Class 720s and this is preparation for that.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I guess the new Class 730s will be standard Class only like the GA / c2c Class 720s and this is preparation for that.

A fair few of their 319s are standard only though so they are used to a mix.

 

[RailWonderer]

I’ve seen the first class fairly well loaded on LNR in the peaks but empty outside with mainly staff and cheap weekend upgraders using it. Very similar to the situation on GA.

 

[Kite159]

I’ve seen the first class fairly well loaded on LNR in the peaks but empty outside with mainly staff and cheap weekend upgraders using it. Very similar to the situation on GA.

Although how many of those in first class actually had first class tickets and weren't simply chancing their luck with the guard not making an appearance. Especially on the southern section of the WCML where some guards do have a habit of hiding in a middle cab only popping out to do the doors at stations.

I agree with @Bletchleyite first class on the 350/1-3&4 is worse than standard class, seats are not as comfortable.

 

[Liam L]

I guess the new Class 730s will be standard Class only like the GA / c2c Class 720s and this is preparation for that.

Does the new LNR 730s have first class? not seen one in person yet, Only the WMR examples.

 

[RailWonderer]

Although how many of those in first class actually had first class tickets and weren't simply chancing their luck with the guard not making an appearance. Especially on the southern section of the WCML where some guards do have a habit of hiding in a middle cab only popping out to do the doors at stations.

I agree with @Bletchleyite first class on the 350/1-3&4 is worse than standard class, seats are not as comfortable.

Good point, guard policy is very passive on LNR. On SWR they are very proactive, always walking through coaches, checking tickets and generally helpful in comparison.

 

[Adam Williams]

It's being scrapped from May 21st on all WMT brands.

You can still buy 1st class tickets for after may, i’ve just checked.

The fares data was supposed to be fixed this week to prevent that.

 

[AJDesiro]

Does the new LNR 730s have first class? not seen one in person yet, Only the WMR examples.

They do currently have first class accommodation, in one of the end carriages, they take up around 2/3s of the carriage. Though, this is on the two sets at Crewe which haven't been modified to be a 2+2 intercity layout (as per order change) yet.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It's being scrapped from May 21st on all WMT brands.



The fares data was supposed to be fixed this week to prevent that.

It seems to have been corrected for journeys wholly on LnW.

However, the first class fare for example, Northampton - Manchester is unchanged after the abolition of first class for the Northampton - Rigby element of the journey. I wonder if that means that LnW still receive the first class fare revenue for that part of the journey when receipts are divided. If they don't it means that Avanti get a bit more...

 

[Watershed]

It seems to have been corrected for journeys wholly on LnW.

However, the first class fare for example, Northampton - Manchester is unchanged after the abolition of first class for the Northampton - Rigby element of the journey. I wonder if that means that LnW still receive the first class fare revenue for that part of the journey when receipts are divided. If they don't it means that Avanti get a bit more...

The existence (or otherwise) of first class facilities doesn't affect ORCATS distribution, as far as I'm aware.

I expect there'll now be more examples of journeys where there are services with first class, but no first class fares. That usually tends to happen when fares are withdrawn in this manner.

Equally, at least it will be nice to be able to guarantee a plug socket and table on class 350 operated services!

 

[bramling]

I guess the new Class 730s will be standard Class only like the GA / c2c Class 720s and this is preparation for that.

One wonders how long first class is going to last with any of the London commuter operators now. I can’t see it lasting much longer on GTR.

The interesting one would be SWR, as ditching it over there would likely upset the Petersfield, Haslemere, Alton (etc) lot.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The existence (or otherwise) of first class facilities doesn't affect ORCATS distribution, as far as I'm aware.

I expect there'll now be more examples of journeys where there are services with first class, but no first class fares. That usually tends to happen when fares are withdrawn in this manner.

Equally, at least it will be nice to be able to guarantee a plug socket and table on class 350 operated services!

Thanks for that. But presumably, in effect, the ORCATS distribution of anytime first class fares assumes a similar level of charge in each component, so, in effecter LnW will still be getting the revenue as if they provided first class. Sounds like another win/win on Britain's railways.

But at least the 'I've got a standard ticket and I'm only in the first class to charge my phone so that's ok' explanation to the Conductor will no longer be necessary...

The interesting one would be SWR, as ditching it over there would likely upset the Petersfield, Haslemere, Alton lot.

On the Western Lines it always used to similarly be the Berkhamsted and Tring ones; if they still exist perhaps they haven't heard yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's being scrapped from May 21st on all WMT brands.

Cheers (and good!)

The fares data was supposed to be fixed this week to prevent that.

They need to also fix the timetable data as some services still show it in part.

 

[jackot]

One wonders how long first class is going to last with any of the London commuter operators now. I can’t see it lasting much longer on GTR.

The interesting one would be SWR, as ditching it over there would likely upset the Petersfield, Haslemere, Alton (etc) lot.

I can't see it happening on SWR, first class tends to be well patronised on most routes both at peak times and off peak, and definitely offers a step-up comfort on the 158/9s and 444s. GTRs 'first class' on the other hand has always been a joke and should have been removed years ago, especially seeing as half of it is declassified on Thameslink. Chiltern have also ditched their Business Zone.

As far as London Northwestern, the soft product was never superior to standard class and I have never felt the need to upgrade. Most of the market for any sort of 'premium' travel on their principle route of Euston to Birmingham seems to be cornered by Avanti, despite how poor their service has been lately.

 

[Fidelis]

Today LNWR are offering first class tickets to Euston in June on the WMT website.

 

[Failed Unit]

One wonders how long first class is going to last with any of the London commuter operators now. I can’t see it lasting much longer on GTR.

The interesting one would be SWR, as ditching it over there would likely upset the Petersfield, Haslemere, Alton (etc) lot.

Ironically I can see it lasting longer on the 387 operated services rather than the 700. Cambridge will be upset to lose it altogether (despite the fact the 387s don’t really have first class accommodation). Southern could have upset Brighton passengers. But I think 1st class on the former NSE area is probably going.

It is interesting that when I see it come up on the routes in question on the thread, the trains I am using on them are not not really that busy so even if it is £5 more, I can’t really justify it to myself, for the same reasons I would never pay the extra on GTR.

 

[Goldfish62]

Good point, guard policy is very passive on LNR. On SWR they are very proactive, always walking through coaches, checking tickets and generally helpful in comparison.

I assume you don't travel on inner suburban or Windsor lines services then!

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the 730 thread:

I could have seen an argument for dedicating the 350/4s to the Crewes and keeping it on those (before they vandalised them by removing the good 2+1 First Class seating) but binning it on all other services. There's no point at all south of Northampton, it's just full of fare dodgers the whole time and there's basically no enforcement. After all the equivalent to the Crewe service, the York semifast, is operated by LNER over on t'East Coast - the Crewe has become a genuine budget long distance service, whereas everything else on LNR is more local in atmosphere even if it can be used as a budget long distance service by some.

However just not having it at all is probably easier.

A fair few of their 319s are standard only though so they are used to a mix.

According to Wiki they only have one 319/0 (the Standard only ones). I've seen it on the WCML on rare occasions (though as they always operate in pairs the other unit would have 1st) but I think it's normally sent to St Albans if it's working.

The others have very nice 2+1 1st which, unlike the 350s, is worth paying for, and indeed I often do if there's an option to be totally sure the service will be a 319 before paying*, e.g. if (as is increasingly usual) the Bletchley gateline is left open.

* Obviously do not board a train without a ticket, but they are so slow coming out of the sidings that you've got plenty of time to buy one on your phone once you've seen the wheels start turning before it gets to P5, the guard gets on and the doors are released.

 

[bramling]

Ironically I can see it lasting longer on the 387 operated services rather than the 700. Cambridge will be upset to lose it altogether (despite the fact the 387s don’t really have first class accommodation). Southern could have upset Brighton passengers. But I think 1st class on the former NSE area is probably going.

I could imagine a fuss being kicked up by the likes of Cambridge if the 365s were still running, however with both the 387s and 700s offering essentially nothing extra at all, is anyone really going to moan its loss? Cambridge has already lost it on the GA side.

Again I could have seen some places south of the river complaining if first actually offered something worthwhile. It’s still something of a joke on the Southern 377s.

Looking at how things are going I have a suspicion it will be gone on GTR within a year or so. Time will tell I guess.

I can't see it happening on SWR, first class tends to be well patronised on most routes both at peak times and off peak, and definitely offers a step-up comfort on the 158/9s and 444s. GTRs 'first class' on the other hand has always been a joke and should have been removed years ago, especially seeing as half of it is declassified on Thameslink. Chiltern have also ditched their Business Zone.

As far as London Northwestern, the soft product was never superior to standard class and I have never felt the need to upgrade. Most of the market for any sort of 'premium' travel on their principle route of Euston to Birmingham seems to be cornered by Avanti, despite how poor their service has been lately.

Agreed I think SWR will be the last NSE TOC with first still standing.

As regards LNWR, one might have thought there would be a market from the likes of Berkhamsted, Tring etc, but I suppose that’s not enough. It was always curious that the LTS line was, IIRC, the only outer suburban London commuter service to enter privatisation without first.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Today LNWR are offering first class tickets to Euston in June on the WMT website.

It will take a few days for the relevant changes to be reflected in retail systems, as I'd assume the relevant teams only returned to work today following the Easter weekend.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

From the 730 thread:

I could have seen an argument for dedicating the 350/4s to the Crewes and keeping it on those (before they vandalised them by removing the good 2+1 First Class seating) but binning it on all other services. There's no point at all south of Northampton, it's just full of fare dodgers the whole time and there's basically no enforcement. After all the equivalent to the Crewe service, the York semifast, is operated by LNER over on t'East Coast - the Crewe has become a genuine budget long distance service, whereas everything else on LNR is more local in atmosphere even if it can be used as a budget long distance service by some.

However just not having it at all is probably easier.



According to Wiki they only have one 319/0 (the Standard only ones). I've seen it on the WCML on rare occasions (though as they always operate in pairs the other unit would have 1st) but I think it's normally sent to St Albans if it's working.

The others have very nice 2+1 1st which, unlike the 350s, is worth paying for, and indeed I often do if there's an option to be totally sure the service will be a 319 before paying*, e.g. if (as is increasingly usual) the Bletchley gateline is left open.

* Obviously do not board a train without a ticket, but they are so slow coming out of the sidings that you've got plenty of time to buy one on your phone once you've seen the wheels start turning before it gets to P5, the guard gets on and the doors are released.

They had more 31900x its just some have now been scrapped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They had more 31900x its just some have now been scrapped.

They were still very rarely seen on the WCML, and I never saw a pair of them lacking 1st entirely, nor a three (they were mostly run in 12 car sets pre COVID).

 

[185]

Despite every man and his dog already knowing, there's now talk of a formal announcement due shortly. It's officially gone from the May new timetable.

 

[DelW]

I can't see it happening on SWR, first class tends to be well patronised on most routes both at peak times and off peak, and definitely offers a step-up comfort on the 158/9s and 444s. GTRs 'first class' on the other hand has always been a joke and should have been removed years ago, especially seeing as half of it is declassified on Thameslink. Chiltern have also ditched their Business Zone.

First class did offer a step-up on the 444s until the SWR refurb - there's barely any difference from standard now though. On SWR's 450s there's still an improvement over standard, but that's only because the 3+2 standard seating is so cramped. If the 458s ever arrive to replace 450s on the Direct, their 2+2 standard seating will mean there'll be little point in first class except on crowded trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First class did offer a step-up on the 444s until the SWR refurb - there's barely any difference from standard now though. On SWR's 450s there's still an improvement over standard, but that's only because the 3+2 standard seating is so cramped. If the 458s ever arrive to replace 450s on the Direct, their 2+2 standard seating will mean there'll be little point in first class except on crowded trains.

2+2 First was only really an expensive seat reservation for rich commuters. Now there are fewer of those it serves no purpose at all.

 

[Chiltern006]

Despite every man and his dog already knowing, there's now talk of a formal announcement due shortly. It's officially gone from the May new timetable.

LNR posted a link on twitter highlighting the webpage to show the changes. I had a brief look, and it did confirm first class was going.

6 hours later, I can’t find the webpage for love nor money.

 

[Intercity110]

https://www.londonnorthwesternrailw...tions/may-timetable-change-sunday-21-may-2023 is the page.

 

[barbette165]

The announcement is here

May Timetable Change: Sunday 21 May 2023

www.londonnorthwesternrailway.co.uk