London Thameslink validity to Liverpool St

[700720]

I often travel between London and Cambridge and buy a Cambridge to London Thameslink return to get to City Thameslink/Blackfriars on the direct Thameslink service. I was wondering whether, if I want to travel back to Cambridge from Liverpool Street on GA, is a London Thameslink ticket valid? I know that a London Terminals ticket is valid and London Thameslink is meant to be a more generous version of London Terminals. Thanks in advance for your advice!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

From Cambridge, a ticket to/from London Thameslink (route "Not Underground") should certainly be valid to any of London St. Pancras, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars and/or London Bridge. Anywhere else as well? Not sure that Liverpool Street would be valid.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Looking on brfares.com, Cambridge to London Blackfriars, using anytime day return fares as an example, there are three different tickets offered up -

£54.60 to London Thameslink, route Not Underground (A)
£54.60 to London Terminals, route Via City Thameslink (B) (CORRECTION - this is actually issued to London Blackfriars)
£52.60 to London Terminals, route Any Permitted (C)

My thinking is that if you buy ticket B, rather than A, then you should be able to use it from Liverpool Street, because that would be a change of route, rather than destination, and because B costs more than C. Am I right?

(DISCLAIMER - I live in northern England and only have a vague idea how trains in London work!)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Don't believe that a route "Any Permitted" ticket from Cambridge to London Terminals would be valid to City Thameslink or to London Blackfriars; certainly not if on a train service passing through Farringdon.

 

[Hadders]

Cambridge to London Terminals is valid to:
St Pancras
Kings Cross
Moorgate via Finsbury Park or via the Underground using the inter-availability (but isn't valid to exit/enter at Farringdon)
Liverpool Street (via WAML)

Cambridge to London Thameslink is valid to:
St Pancras
Kings Cross
Farringdon
City Thameslink
Blackfriars
London Bridge
Elephant & Castle
It is not valid to Moorgate or Liverpool Street

Travelling in London | National Rail

Whether you’re travelling to, from, or in and around London by train, we can help you find the best routes and prices for your journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[MrJeeves]

Don't believe that a route "Any Permitted" ticket from Cambridge to London Terminals would be valid to City Thameslink or to London Blackfriars; certainly not if on a train service passing through Farringdon.

Indeed.

The London Terminals fares are only permitted for travel to St Pancras, and not further south on Thameslink. They show when you search for Blackfriars simply because the industry fares data isn't granular enough to represent the concept of London Terminals.

I was wondering whether, if I want to travel back to Cambridge from Liverpool Street on GA, is a London Thameslink ticket valid?

Not as far as I can tell, unfortunately.

You'd need to instead get tickets from Cambridge to London Underground Zone 1, which would be valid on Thameslink due to interavailability, and also from Liverpool Street out to Cambridge on Greater Anglia. You'd have to also make sure you do not get one with route "via Tottenham Hale" as that wouldn't be possible on Thameslink services (unless you wanted to take GA to Tottenham Hale, then Victoria Line to Finsbury Park to get to Thameslink, but that would add about 45 mins to your journey!).

The Anytime Day Return for this journey would be £58.60 without any Railcard.

 

[700720]

Cambridge to London Terminals is valid to:
St Pancras
Kings Cross
Moorgate via Finsbury Park or via the Underground using the inter-availability (but isn't valid to exit/enter at Farringdon)
Liverpool Street (via WAML)

Cambridge to London Thameslink is valid to:
St Pancras
Kings Cross
Farringdon
City Thameslink
Blackfriars
London Bridge
Elephant & Castle
It is not valid to Moorgate or Liverpool Street

Travelling in London | National Rail

Whether you’re travelling to, from, or in and around London by train, we can help you find the best routes and prices for your journey.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

View attachment 163339

Thanks, that’s what I suspected

 

[lyndhurst25]

Daft that the more expensive to/via Thameslink tickets are not valid via Liverpool Street! Would a possible workaround be to buy a Cambridge to London Terminals ticket, plus an over-distance excess to Blackfriars or London Thameslink?

 

[MrJeeves]

Would a possible workaround be to buy a Cambridge to London Terminals ticket, plus an over-distance excess to Blackfriars or London Thameslink?

No, because the "overdistance" would replace the whole ticket and convert it to London Thameslink, so it would no longer be valid into the other London Terminals not covered by this destination.

 

[30907]

Daft that the more expensive to/via Thameslink tickets are not valid via Liverpool Street!

The £2 difference is somewhat less than a couple of tube fares (even with Oyster)

 

[lyndhurst25]

No, because the "overdistance" would replace the whole ticket and convert it to London Thameslink, so it would no longer be valid into the other London Terminals not covered by this destination.

Aren’t overdistance excess tickets issued on additional tickets, rather than replacing the ticket you already hold?

3.1.009 img765

Explore RailUK Forums' 557 photos on Flickr!

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The question is whether you are obliged to use the overdistance excess in both directions? (And, if you are, and you didn’t, how would anyone know?)

 

[Hadders]

Aren’t overdistance excess tickets issued on additional tickets, rather than replacing the ticket you already hold?

3.1.009 img765

Explore RailUK Forums' 557 photos on Flickr!

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The question is whether you are obliged to use the overdistance excess in both directions? (And, if you are, and you didn’t, how would anyone know?)

Tiickets with barcodes make it all traceable.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Tiickets with barcodes make it all traceable.

Yes, with barcoded or tickets. But I’m not convinced that you are doing anything wrong by only using the overdistance excess in one direction only.

RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements

Section 4 - Excesses, Upgrades & Supplements Contents 4.1 Introduction to excesses & upgrades 4.2 Excesses 4.2.1 Excess: change of route 4.2.2 Excess: upgrade to 1st 4.2.3 Excess: overdistance 4.2.4 Excess: change of ticket type 4.2.5 Excess: Advance tickets 4.2.6 Excess: Single to Return...

www.railforums.co.uk

suggests that you can still overdistance excess the return portion of a ticket AFTER you have completed the outbound leg, thereby applying the excess to the return journey only. That would be fine if you want to do Cambridge to Liverpool Street (Cambridge to London Terminals ticket), then Blackfriars to Cambridge (overdistance excess the return portion). But are people suggesting that it can’t legitimately be done the other way round for the same price?

 

[MrJeeves]

Also important to note

The original destination must be on a permitted route from the origin to the new destination.

On a train into Liverpool Street, it could be argued that the original destination was not an a permitted route from Cambridge to London Thameslink if you remain on board after Tottenham Hale.

Likewise if you arrived into London Thameslink and travelled past St Pancras, excessing to London Terminals (which costs less anyway?) wouldn't be permitted as it wouldn't be permitted on a ticket to London Terminals.

 

[Recessio]

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Whether you’re travelling to, from, or in and around London by train, we can help you find the best routes and prices for your journey.

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View attachment 163339

Thanks this is a very useful diagram (as are the others on that link, I hadn't seen them before.)

Although, they could have put North as up and South as down

 

[Haywain]

Thanks this is a very useful diagram (as are the others on that link, I hadn't seen them before.)

Although, they could have put North as up and South as down

They could also have done with not using the term 'London Thameslink Terminals'.

 

[APT618S]

A question for the more knowledgeable people on here but for the tickets mentioned in post 3 which are issued to Blackfriars is
Cambridge - Liverpool St - Farringdon - City Thameslink - Blackfriars using Greater Anglia, Elizabeth line and Thameslink not the shortest route ?
Is there a negative easement preventing this route ?

 

[swt_passenger]

A question for the more knowledgeable people on here but for the tickets mentioned in post 3 which are issued to Blackfriars is
Cambridge - Liverpool St - Farringdon - City Thameslink - Blackfriars using Greater Anglia, Elizabeth line and Thameslink not the shortest route ?
Is there a negative easement preventing this route ?

A London Terminals fare has no validity on the Elizabeth line between Liverpool St and Paddington. It’s also mentioned in the similar current thread about getting to London Bridge from the GW by using Crossrail and Thameslink.

I look at it as being well known as not valid ‘before Crossrail’ and TfL have insisted that the introduction of Crossrail has not changed anything.

Please disregard

 

[lyndhurst25]

The whole thing is messed up and confusing. 700720’s hope that a Cambridge to London Thameslink ticket could be used to return from Liverpool Street is entirely reasonable looking at the geography, but it seems that the railway’s rules are not wanting to allow that. Not sure if that is deliberate or by accident.

A Cambridge to London ticket has been valid interchangeably into either Kings Cross or Liverpool Street since 1952 or earlier (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/british-rail-passenger-ticket-book-of-routes-1952.135015/).

Then in the 1980s Thameslink came along, initially with trains from Bedford in the north, now being able to travel across the City of London to “southern region” destinations. I imagine that it is from around this time that the London Thameslink destination (pay a little bit extra to travel beyond Kings Cross to as far south as London Bridge/E&C) and the maps quoted by Hadders were introduced (note the map states “Travelling to London from the NORTH”).

Since then Cambridge has been added to the Thameslink network and the problem is that Cambridge isn't really “the North”, it’s north-east and it’s passengers have always had the choice of travelling eastwards out of London from Liverpool Street.

With the current range of tickets, a passenger from Cambridge pays a little bit extra to gain the use of the Thameslink stations beyond Kings Criss/St Pancras, but perversely this seems to result in denying them the use of services out of Liverpool Street. Surely this can’t be intentional? There is no undercutting of fares in this case.

There really ought to be an easement that says that if you hold a (more expensive) ticket to London Thameslink, then it also has the same validity as an identical (less expensive) issued to London Terminals. That wouldn't mess up anything, would it?

 

[PeterC]

There really ought to be an easement that says that if you hold a (more expensive) ticket to London Thameslink, then it also has the same validity as an identical (less expensive) issued to London Terminals. That wouldn't mess up anything, would it?

Instead of fiddling with the symptoms the root cause should be addressed. That is a fares system built around the original franchising model.

 

[Haywain]

A London Terminals fare has no validity on the Elizabeth line between Liverpool St and Paddington. It’s also mentioned in the similar current thread about getting to London Bridge from the GW by using Crossrail and Thameslink.

The fare being asked about by @APT618S has a destination of London Blackfriars, not London Terminals.

A question for the more knowledgeable people on here but for the tickets mentioned in post 3 which are issued to Blackfriars is
Cambridge - Liverpool St - Farringdon - City Thameslink - Blackfriars using Greater Anglia, Elizabeth line and Thameslink not the shortest route ?
Is there a negative easement preventing this route ?

It is not clear what routeing is intended and the lack of a Maltese cross would suggest that it is not intended to be valid through Liverpool Street. However, that is just my interpretation.

 

[swt_passenger]

The fare being asked about by @APT618S has a destination of London Blackfriars, not London Terminals.

My mistake I didn’t read the question properly.

 

[miklcct]

A question for the more knowledgeable people on here but for the tickets mentioned in post 3 which are issued to Blackfriars is
Cambridge - Liverpool St - Farringdon - City Thameslink - Blackfriars using Greater Anglia, Elizabeth line and Thameslink not the shortest route ?
Is there a negative easement preventing this route ?

I tried something like this on a different London Thameslink ticket in the past and a negative easement was introduced after I queried the Customer Service about the validity of the ticket for the purpose of combining it with a Travelcard.

The ticket involved was somewhere to London Thameslink, and the route I intended to use was a mapped route to London Group entering at a non-Thameslink London Terminal, continuing to the Thameslink core using onward National Rail services.

 

[bakerstreet]

I tried something like this on a different London Thameslink ticket in the past and a negative easement was introduced after I queried the Customer Service about the validity of the ticket for the purpose of combining it with a Travelcard.

The ticket involved was somewhere to London Thameslink, and the route I intended to use was a mapped route to London Group entering at a non-Thameslink London Terminal, continuing to the Thameslink core using onward National Rail services.

That’s unfortunate. There’s a lesson to be learned here perhaps

 

[arb]

On a train into Liverpool Street, it could be argued that the original destination was not an a permitted route from Cambridge to London Thameslink if you remain on board after Tottenham Hale.

The impliciation from that statement is that Cambridge to London Thameslink is valid via Tottenham Hale (but not via Liverpool Street). How would that work? The London Thameslink tickets are routed "not underground". So after staring at the "London rail and tube services" map for some time, the best option I can come up with to get from Tottenham Hale to the Thameslink core, with those limitations, is:

• Greater Anglia: Tottenham Hale to Hackney Downs
• walk: to Hackney Central
• Overground: to Highbury & Islington
• Great Northern: to Finsbury Park
• Thameslink: to Thameslink core stations

but that feels dubious because you'd be going away from London on the Great Northern leg from Highbury & Islington to Finsbury Park.

 

[Haywain]

• Overground: to Highbury & Islington
• Great Northern: to Finsbury Park
• Thameslink: to Thameslink core stations

but that feels dubious because you'd be going away from London on the Great Northern leg from Highbury & Islington to Finsbury Park.

Overground to West Hampstead and then Thameslink?

 

[Magdalia]

Overground to West Hampstead and then Thameslink?

West Hampstead and West Hampstead Thameslink are 2 separate stations. Changing trains between the 2 stations requires passing through barrier lines at both.

• Greater Anglia: Tottenham Hale to Hackney Downs
• walk: to Hackney Central

On the other hand, there is a walking route between Hackney Downs and Hackney Central that does not involve passing through any barrier lines.

 

[Haywain]

West Hampstead and West Hampstead Thameslink are 2 separate stations. Changing trains between the 2 stations requires passing through barrier lines at both.

I'm aware of the gatelines and my comment was tongue in cheek, but I don't believe that the presence of a gateline is a factor which can be used to determine the validity of a route.

 

[yorkie]

The solution is simple: allow tickets issued between "London Thameslink" and Cambridge (& any other applicable locations) to be officially valid into Liverpool Street; there is already a precedent for this, in that tickets issued between "London Thameslink" and "Bedford Stations" are also valid into Euston.

Easy peasy.

The impliciation from that statement is that Cambridge to London Thameslink is valid via Tottenham Hale (but not via Liverpool Street). How would that work? The London Thameslink tickets are routed "not underground". So after staring at the "London rail and tube services" map for some time, the best option I can come up with to get from Tottenham Hale to the Thameslink core, with those limitations, is:

• Greater Anglia: Tottenham Hale to Hackney Downs
• walk: to Hackney Central
• Overground: to Highbury & Islington
• Great Northern: to Finsbury Park
• Thameslink: to Thameslink core stations

but that feels dubious because you'd be going away from London on the Great Northern leg from Highbury & Islington to Finsbury Park.

The rules are as follows; there is no scope for feelings

1) Is it a through train? If so it's valid; if not, go to step 2
2) Is it the shortest route? If so it's valid; if not, go to step 3
3) Is it within 3 miles of the shortest route, and no negative easement preventing it? If so it's valid; if not, go to step 4
4) Is it a permitted route for any other reason, i.e. a mapped route, permitted by an easement etc. If so, it's valid, if not, it's not.

... but I don't believe that the presence of a gateline is a factor which can be used to determine the validity of a route.

Absolutely; all it means is that there is scope for staff to deny passengers the right to travel (either legitimately or, as I've experienced at London Overground gatelines, wrongly!)