London to Ashwell and Morden - Sunday 17th March

[joncombe]

I am trying to buy a flexible ticket for this journey on Sunday. I don't mind whether I leave from London Kings Cross or London St Pancras but that is what seems to be causing confusion and I don't know what ticket to buy and different websites tell me different things. Taking (for example) depart around 9am, return around 3pm I am getting from National Rail website if I search starting from "London" (not specifying a specific station).

National Rail quotes me a price of £16.60 and around half the outward journeys start at London Kings Cross and about half at London St Pancras (both routes are direct train taking 47 or 50 minutes. However when I pick a return I see the first screenshot.

As you see it only shows return prices for journeys that return to London Kings Cross and for the trains to London St Pancras it says "No fare available". This seems to be because the outward journey I selected was from London Kings Cross and if I select one from London St Pancras then I see on the return a fare is listed for this but not the trains to Kings Cross instead (it's the same price, £16.60).

if I try on Trainline.com (see second screenshot) this shows the £16.60 return ticket and suggests it is valid on all of the trains and even flags it as "Choice of stations". Great Northerns own website shows the £16.60 as valid to either terminal (I have specifically selected different outward and return) and it seems to think it is OK. This forums own website is showing the ticket as valid on all the trains BUT is only showing the return trains that go to St Pancras and not showing any of them that go to Kings Cross. This is the case whether I select timeline or grid and no matter which outward train I select.

So I am still not really clear. If I buy this £16.60 ticket can I use it from and to either terminal (including, say, out from Kings Cross, back from St Pancras)? I don't know exactly what time I will return so want the flexibility of using either station (they are right next door and share the same tube station, after all!).

I am confused why different planners seem to show different results and hadn't expected this to be so complicated and I find it disappointing even the journey planners cannot give a consistent answer.

 

[MrJeeves]

So I am still not really clear. If I buy this £16.60 ticket can I use it from and to either terminal (including, say, out from Kings Cross, back from St Pancras)? I don't know exactly what time I will return so want the flexibility of using either station (they are right next door and share the same tube station, after all!).

Yes. The £16.60 is issued from London Terminals and would be valid to depart/return from/to both KGX and St Pancras.

It's not immediately obvious why some journey planners won't offer this, but I'm sure there's some reason in the electronic data somewhere or JPs are misinterpreting something.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I'm sure there's some reason in the electronic data somewhere or JPs are misinterpreting something.

All journey planners are having to interpret what the customer wants, which generally means the itineraries with the shortest journey times. Trainsplit also offers "Fastest", for that purpose, but the OP has selected "Best Value". Trainsplit interprets that in a way which means the return journeys to Kings Cross aren't shown (by default). They are shown on the timeline view if you click "View All Results", or if you select "Cheapest" as opposed to "Best Value". But it does then show that the Super Offpeak return is valid from and to either St Pancras or Kings Cross. Of the JPs the OP has tried, it's only the NRE journey planner which suggests it isn't.

Playing with the NRE planner, the behaviour is the same with other destinations served by both Kings Cross and St Pancras and across other return ticket types with origin London Terminals, even the Anytime return.

Same with London Terminals to e.g. Brighton. Select an outward itinerary from Victoria and the Anytime Day Return (Any Permitted £40.80) then try and select a return itinerary to London Bridge. You can't - "No fares available".

Or try Banbury to Birmingham Stations return and select the "Via Leamington" fare for an outward journey to New St. On the return, for itineraries from Moor Street, once again there's apparently "No fares available", despite the "Via Leamington" ticket being valid on Chiltern.

It's a fault.

 

[HughT]

It's a right pain from Cambridge - if (as is far from unusual) a traveller wants to go to Liverpool St and return from King's X (for example). If only you could buy the ticket you want without having to attach it to a specific itinerary that most (but not all) journey planners don't offer, even though valid... Still, it means there's more business for the ticket office staff (although in Cambridge there are times when you really don't want to have to join a massive queue).

 

[Haywain]

If only you could buy the ticket you want without having to attach it to a specific itinerary that most (but not all) journey planners don't offer, even though valid...

If you buy a walk-up ticket with an itinerary you are not compelled to follow that itinerary, so just buy the ticket and use as you wish (subject to any applicable restrictions).

 

[HurdyGurdy]

just buy the ticket and use as you wish (subject to any applicable restrictions).

But how does a customer determine what the applicable restrictions are? For those without an in-depth knowledge of the routeing guide, it's the NRE journey planner which is supposed to be the definitive source of information.

 

[Haywain]

But how does a customer determine what the applicable restrictions are? For those without an in-depth knowledge of the routeing guide, it's the NRE journey planner which is supposed to be the definitive source of information.

I guess they'll ask someone.

 

[joncombe]

Thanks everyone who responded confirming the ticket is valid to both stations. Disappointing the National Rail planner gets it wrong though.

As to the forums own ticket site, the default view is best value and this only shows half the return trains. Same if you click fastest. You only see all the return services if you click cheapest which doesn't make a lot of sense to me as all the trains are the same price. Personally I would only expect fastest to exclude overtaken services only. Removing trains that take 5 minutes longer than one half an hour later isn't what I expected.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I guess they'll ask someone.

If a customer has got the supposedly definitive advice from NRE is that a ticket isn't valid, why would they question that advice by asking elsewhere? It's only those customers, like the OP, who are aware that the NRE journey planner contains bugs, faults and errors who will seek advice here.

You only see all the return services if you click cheapest which doesn't make a lot of sense to me as all the trains are the same price. Personally I would only expect fastest to exclude overtaken services only.

Trainsplit doesn't explain how "Best Value" is determined. Presumably it's based on some assessment of ticket price versus journey time and in this instance that metric has excluded the journeys which return to Kings Cross from that view. As for "Fastest", I can only agree that to be of most use, it should include itineraries which are not overtaken by another, rather than simply those with the shortest overall journey time. Having said that at least Trainsplit does give you some control over what options to see, which few other journey planners do at all.

I don't know what is happening with NRE and validity of tickets issued from/to station groups. It's as if one test of validity being applied is that the destination station of a return itinerary must be the same as the origin station of the outward and vice versa. Clearly that simple test can give an incorrect negative result when the origin and/or destination of the ticket is a station group. To me it seems like an obvious fault which ought to be fixed, but the rail industry seems remarkably tolerant of all the misinformation it dispenses I doubt anyone will see the necessity.