London train prices

[KGX]

August is always exceptionally busy due to school holidays and the Edinburgh Festival/Fringe etc. That leads to higher prices.

No, that’s what I thought at first, but it’s throughout September/October too. Prices from the N.E. down to London have almost doubled. It was possible to get an advance for around £23-£29 on a weekday evening. You’re now looking at +£50 as a starting point. Quite a leap.

It’s actually still cheaper to buy a ticket with LNER in June than it is in October.

 

[Mikw]

The price of a Dacia Sandero has doubled in 4 years, the cost of food is up 70 plus percent, energy prices have skyrocketed - guess it's the new normal for something to huperinflate these days.

 

[paul1609]

No, that’s what I thought at first, but it’s throughout September/October too. Prices from the N.E. down to London have almost doubled. It was possible to get an advance for around £23-£29 on a weekday evening. You’re now looking at +£50 as a starting point. Quite a leap.

It’s actually still cheaper to buy a ticket with LNER in June than it is in October.

Given that LNER are owned by the same parent company as Southeastern where a 50 mile hop costs an absolute minimum of £16. £50 for 300 miles seems like an absolute bargain. Isn't it called levelling up?

 

[extendedpaul]

£50 return for 2 people on an overnight Flixbus coach in August. £64 National Express

The difference in cost between coach and rail travel has increased significantly since pre-pandemic.

I've always been happy to pay around double the price to go by train on my trips from and to London, booking well in advance, but the differential is often much more than that. That's with both a senior railcard and a senior coachcard.

 

[island]

Lumo are charging £250 for two people to go to London three months in advance?

This is just impossible; 2 Lumo Only Anytime singles would cost £99 with a Two Together Railcard, plus £30 for the Railcard if not already held.

£500 for two first class singles. I could take a private let for that.

Private let? Private jet?

Either way, what does £500 get you?

If you can hire yourself a private jet from Edinburgh to London for £500 all in, I’ll pay for it personally.

Looking at prices with my two together railcard for October it offers £10/20 off not one third.

A Two Together Railcard always offers one-third (technically, 34%) off rail fares except before 0930 weekdays when it is no discount. If it’s offering £10 or £20 off, that is because the fare is £30 or £60 without the Railcard.

 

[SHFTraveller]

I'm seeing similar increases, where as previously I could pick up an advance single for £40-£45 into London before 8:30, I'm now only able to get a fare of £65 or higher. Booking 8+ weeks out doesn't seem to help and ECML seems to be £70 minimum one way.

Although not particularly comfortable or reliable, the coach is looking more favourable at only 25% of the rail fare

 

[Tetchytyke]

You have to remember that LNER have longer booking horizons than most TOCs. So basically the cheap tickets have already gone.

Even into late November (22 November as a random example) they’re all showing as £52.90 or higher from Newcastle to London. Which would imply to me that either LNER have withdrawn the lower buckets (or have restricted them so heavily they are effectively withdrawn) or they don’t offer the lowest buckets in the extended booking horizon.

I know you couldn’t say, but I’d love to know which it is!

 

[Haywain]

Even into late November (22 November as a random example) they’re all showing as £52.90 or higher from Newcastle to London. Which would imply to me that either LNER have withdrawn the lower buckets (or have restricted them so heavily they are effectively withdrawn) or they don’t offer the lowest buckets in the extended booking horizon.

I know you couldn’t say, but I’d love to know which it is!

Looking at a random date in November, you can get a £28.90 single on the last two trains from Newcastle, so the fares have clearly not been withdrawn or restricted from being available in the extended horizon.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Even into late November (22 November as a random example) they’re all showing as £52.90 or higher from Newcastle to London. Which would imply to me that either LNER have withdrawn the lower buckets (or have restricted them so heavily they are effectively withdrawn) or they don’t offer the lowest buckets in the extended booking horizon.

I know you couldn’t say, but I’d love to know which it is!

I couldn't say because I'm not currently working for LNER but Haywain seems to have found some.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

£500 for two first class singles. I could take a private let for that.

Private let? Private jet?

Either way, what does £500 get you?

Yes private jet sorry

If you can hire yourself a private jet from Edinburgh to London for £500 all in, I’ll pay for it personally.

Wonder if you'll be hearing from @Citybreak1 anytime soon?

 

[KGX]

Even into late November (22 November as a random example) they’re all showing as £52.90 or higher from Newcastle to London. Which would imply to me that either LNER have withdrawn the lower buckets (or have restricted them so heavily they are effectively withdrawn) or they don’t offer the lowest buckets in the extended booking horizon.

Yes, I agree. It's pretty obvious given that it's still easy to get a ticket from Newcastle for around £30 on pretty much any weekday evening in June & July around 5pm/6pm. Yet September/October minimums are £52.90 across the board.

 

[Haywain]

Yet September/October minimums are £52.90 across the board.

That is just untrue.

 

[KGX]

That is just untrue.

I'm talking about the 5pm/6pm trains from the NE to London. The ones after work. Not the late night services.
They are all £52.90 midweek. This is definitely a policy change because I use these trains every week and it's always been possible to get advance tickets for less, even at short notice. Even June & July are still as it has been. Yet, September & October are £52.90.

 

[Haywain]

I'm talking about the 5pm/6pm trains from the NE to London. The ones after work. Not the late night services.
They are all £52.90 midweek. This is definitely a policy change because I use these trains every week and it's always been possible to get advance tickets for less, even at short notice. Even June & July are still as it has been. Yet, September & October are £52.90.

OK, so if price is important you can travel later but if the time is more important you can pay a bit more. Your choice.

 

[KGX]

OK, so if price is important you can travel later but if the time is more important you can pay a bit more. Your choice.

Yes, I'm aware of that. This thread is just highlightling the significant % price increase that has occurred on the majority of services from the north to London. Not much point trying to pretend it hasn't happened.

 

[Hadders]

This is an example of the sort of simplification that we’re constantly told passengers want.

While fares regulation is far from perfect it does at least provide a ceiling for travel at off peak times, although we know the Treasury/DfT/RDG/TOCs want to see it withdrawn calling it out of date, not for for purpose etc.

The problem with Advance fares is that there is no transparency.

 

[Haywain]

The reality of the situation is that on LNER leisure travel has recovered (from the pandemic) much more strongly than business and commuting travel. This means that to achieve the same level of revenue then leisure fares have to increase. I would guess that this is what is now being seen, under pressure from DfT. On the bright side, the introduction of single leg pricing for walk-up fares also puts a lower ceiling on where those Advance fares can go now.

 

[westv]

On the bright side, the introduction of single leg pricing for walk-up fares also puts a lower ceiling on where those Advance fares can go now.

Does it? The single walk up fares I've looked at aren't changing so how is the ceiling being lowered?

 

[Haywain]

Does it? The single walk up fares I've looked at aren't changing so how is the ceiling being lowered?

For journeys affected by single leg pricing, the ceiling on Advance fares is the new walk-up price. That will be lower than it was under the old walk-up price.

 

[Hadders]

For journeys affected by single leg pricing, the ceiling on Advance fares is the new walk-up price. That will be lower than it was under the old walk-up price.

But not at Off Peak times.

The extension of Anytime pricking to trains previously classed as Off Peak really is quite scandalous.

But it’s all simple, of course…

 

[westv]

For journeys affected by single leg pricing, the ceiling on Advance fares is the new walk-up price. That will be lower than it was under the old walk-up price.

I must admit I've only looked out of curiosity at one route but the LNER anytime single Hull to KX is staying the same price after they remove the return ticket.

 

[Haywain]

But not at Off Peak times.

The extension of Anytime pricking to trains previously classed as Off Peak really is quite scandalous.

But it’s all simple, of course…

And I am pretty sure you know what I meant.

 

[KGX]

The problem with Advance fares is that there is no transparency.

Quite. They've pushed through circa 70%-100% fare increases on the services I use without any press coverage. Fair play to them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Looking at a random date in November, you can get a £28.90 single on the last two trains from Newcastle, so the fares have clearly not been withdrawn or restricted from being available in the extended horizon.

Then it’s as I said in parentheses, they’ve messed around with the buckets to the extent that the cheapest tiers are effectively withdrawn.

The joy of Advance tickets, of course, is that it’s easy to hide really very significant price rises. Just because a bucket exists doesn’t mean they have to offer it on a train.

 

[Haywain]

Then it’s as I said in parentheses, they’ve messed around with the buckets to the extent that the cheapest tiers are effectively withdrawn.

Not withdrawn, just not as available as might be preferred.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not withdrawn, just not as available as might be preferred.

If buckets which are currently available on daytime trains are no longer made available, then the only way to describe them is as withdrawn.

I’ve looked right at the end of the booking horizon and they’re not there.

There’s no obligation for LNER to make them available, but that’s not what I said.

 

[Krokodil]

This is an example of the sort of simplification that we’re constantly told passengers want.

Except that an Advance ticket was always an Advance ticket, no matter what the price is. Lining up all of the prices simplifies nothing from the passenger perspective. The conditions continue to be "booked train only".

Simplification would be streamlining the walk-up fares, such that a flexible ticket from A-B is a flexible ticket from A-B. No TOC-specific restrictions, and if any peak restrictions need to exist then they should be consistent with similar journeys.

To take Manchester to Manchester Airport for example, there are three sets of TOC-specific restrictions, with different definitions of "peak", plus Northern offering Advance fares for very short journeys. All for a 15 minute stretch with a high proportion of foreign travellers and inexperienced rail users. Then factor in the tiniest bit of late-running and "isn't this the 9:59?", "no, it's the late-running 9:55 and your ticket isn't valid" becomes a circus.

On another route, someone asking for a return ticket turns into a Mastermind quiz:

"What time will you be returning? If you use one of our services peak hours are x-y and they depart at z past every other hour. However for two quid more you can have a flexible ticket and there aren't any afternoon peak restrictions on that..."

Again for a 15 minute journey.

 

[KGX]

If buckets which are currently available on daytime trains are no longer made available, then the only way to describe them is as withdrawn.

I’ve looked right at the end of the booking horizon and they’re not there.

There’s no obligation for LNER to make them available, but that’s not what I said.

Notice the low fare buckets are still available on LNER Edinburgh services, Leeds and York originators. So mainly North East stations being targeted with the big % hikes. Strange.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Private let? Private jet?

Either way, what does £500 get you?

Private IET, aka chartering an Azuma.

 

[bob007]

To take Manchester to Manchester Airport for example, there are three sets of TOC-specific restrictions, with different definitions of "peak", plus Northern offering Advance fares for very short journeys. All for a 15 minute stretch with a high proportion of foreign travellers and inexperienced rail users. Then factor in the tiniest bit of late-running and "isn't this the 9:59?", "no, it's the late-running 9:55 and your ticket isn't valid" becomes a circus.

Here here.

It’s almost the work of a psychopath to subject tourists - who either have endured or will endure the horrors of Manchester airport - to such complicated rules and fares.

Mr Burnham needs to bash some heads together.

The contrast to eg Schipol is astounding. Exit on level ground to the train hall, buy a single ticket for €23 to the other side of the country, and get on whatever train turns up next.