London Travelcards at risk

[mangyiscute]

As someone who frequently travels from Reading to and around London, this would be a disaster for people in places such as Reading - I see so many people buying the off-peak day travelcard which does give a pretty good saving on the cost of buying a return and then using contactless - especially as people who currently use a railcard will not realise that they could save money by getting an oyster card and then adding their railcard to that

 

[JonathanH]

As someone who frequently travels from Reading to and around London, this would be a disaster for people in places such as Reading - I see so many people buying the off-peak day travelcard which does give a pretty good saving on the cost of buying a return and then using contactless - especially as people who currently use a railcard will not realise that they could save money by getting an oyster card and then adding their railcard to that

From Reading, there is already Contactless capping at the same price as the Travelcard so for normal users without railcards it is actually no change. It is actually one of the places where it is not a disaster.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Getting rid of outer boundary travelcards will decrease my visits to the capital. [...]

Yeah I agree. Doesn't Khan want more people from the Home Counties to visit London to support the businesses (once covid subsides a bit of course)?

 

[Starmill]

Yeah I agree. Doesn't Khan want more people from the Home Counties to visit London to support the businesses (once covid subsides a bit of course)?

Only ones who can afford to pay the most.

 

[Hadders]

Frankly this is disgraceful behaviour from TfL unless a full contactless and Oyster solution is rolled out across the former NSE with appropriate daily capping in line with the current daily travelcard cost.

If it goes ahead it would represent a return to the bad old days, we should be encouraging ticketing integration not promoting its removal.

 

[miklcct]

From Reading, there is already Contactless capping at the same price as the Travelcard so for normal users without railcards it is actually no change. It is actually one of the places where it is not a disaster.

TfL website says otherwise:

Contactless caps

Note that journeys to or from Reading or Iver aren't included in caps (and Oyster cards aren't accepted on TfL Rail between Reading and Iver)

 

[Non Multi]

TfL website says otherwise:

It would not be the first time their website has shown really out of date information. Capping went live last spring.

Capping to Reading, Luton Airport etc – Oyster Fares Central

oysterfares.com

 

[Andrew1395]

There would be quite a bit of admin savings getting rid of Travelcards. It’s a laborious process maintains travelcard factors in Lennon. I bet the Elizabeth Line has been a real headache to get those allocation factors amended to take it into account.

 

[thedbdiboy]

In regards to the new TfL financial statement, the BBC London Transport Correspondent Tom Edwards has tweeted the following regarding the Mayor’s proposals:

https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1471183236428615681?

It includes the following information (the end is cut off in the tweet)



Whether this means anything for cross London “Maltese cross” journeys doesn’t seem to be mentioned.

The Cross-London Agreement is entirely separate from the Travelcard Agreement.

 

[JonathanH]

The Cross-London Agreement is entirely separate from the Travelcard Agreement.

How easy would it be for TfL to withdraw from the Cross-London Agreement (not suggesting that they necessarily want to)? Is it protected by legislation?

 

[thedbdiboy]

How easy would it be for TfL to withdraw from the Cross-London Agreement (not suggesting that they necessarily want to)? Is it protected by legislation?

Like the Travelcard Agreement, it is contractual and not protected by legislation. It was introduced as a commercial initiative between LT and BR - BR customers got inclusive cross-London travel on payment of an agreed sum to LT, and in return LT had a cost effective way to reduce queues and ticket buying at the main London railway stations.

 

[Wolfie]

Frankly this is disgraceful behaviour from TfL unless a full contactless and Oyster solution is rolled out across the former NSE with appropriate daily capping in line with the current daily travelcard cost.

If it goes ahead it would represent a return to the bad old days, we should be encouraging ticketing integration not promoting its removal.

Tell that to HMG....

 

[Hadders]

Tell that to HMG....

It won't go down well with Tory MPs in the shires whose constituents will end up paying significant price increases, especially for leisure travel.

 

[Hadders]

I would imagine that the Network Railcard is already on the way out, particularly with the extension of PAYG out of London.

A 50% increase in leisure fares would be the result and I can imagine many MPs would not be happy.

 

[MikeWh]

It won't go down well with Tory MPs in the shires whose constituents will end up paying significant price increases, especially for leisure travel.

You've hit the nail on the head.

Khan has been asked to provide ideas to raise more revenue for TfL by DfT. Early ideas (Greater London boundary vehicle charge, London VED payments to be returned to City Hall) have been rejected. The DfT is playing politics, so Khan is joining in. If the proposal gets the go-ahead the DfT can expect serious questions from many of those MPs.

Raising the Oyster deposit to £7 is simply wrong. Even the current £5 is already difficult to justify when paper tickets are priced so high. Public transport has to remain accessible to the poorest in society; not all of them will have contactless cards (or even a bank account) and not all of them will have Oyster cards.

Funnily enough, Khan seems to have forgotten that the £5 hasn't been a deposit for nearly two years. It is a fee, refundable after one year if the card is still being used (ie not been refunded). However, TfL fare decisions go through rigorous impact assesments on low income groups so it is possible that this change won't happen for the reasons you state.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have seen it suggested on Twitter that this might not just mean the end of paper Travelcards, but also capping would only apply to TfL services, with NR on top, so no revenue sharing at all.

He surely wouldn't do that, would he? He would lose every single vote in South London. It would be Ken Livingstone's "Fares Fair" all over?

 

[MikeWh]

I have seen it suggested on Twitter that this might not just mean the end of paper Travelcards, but also capping would only apply to TfL services, with NR on top, so no revenue sharing at all.

He surely wouldn't do that, would he? He would lose every single vote in South London. It would be Ken Livingstone's "Fares Fair" all over?

My understanding (which might be wrong) is that there will be no changes to capping on Oyster/contactless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding (which might be wrong) is that there will be no changes to capping on Oyster/contactless.

That was my reading of it too.

 

[plugwash]

Does anyone know how revenue distribution for capped travel on oyster/contactless is handled? Are the payments to each operator just reduced pro-rata or is it more complex than that?

 

[duncanp]

Does anyone know what will happen to Travelcards within the London fare zones, e.g. Zones 1-6?

When I lived and worked in London, I had an annual travelcard for zones 1-3 on Oyster, which was priced at 40 times the cost of a weekly ticket.

So switching to weekly capping would involve a significant extra cost, as would be the case for commuters travelling from a zone 6 station such as, er, Uxbridge.

Perhaps people affected could contact their local MP.

 

[su31]

As a member of LU station staff working at a zone 2 NR interchange station with only an LU gate line, I often see customers with NR paper tickets (for example, station of origin to Z12 single or return) approach the gate line from the paid side with a used ticket portion but think they've got a day travelcard (because "that's what I asked for when I bought it" although 99% have been purchased from ticket machines (they obviosuly think we were born yesterday) - so they have to be let out through the barriers as we have to do so, and can't charge an excess fare.

 

[mangyiscute]

From Reading, there is already Contactless capping at the same price as the Travelcard so for normal users without railcards it is actually no change. It is actually one of the places where it is not a disaster.

But as someone with a railcard, since for whatever reason Reading isn't on oyster I'll be paying £9.10 more for that, so it is a disaster - most people I see using the train from Reading to London in off-peak are either under 30 or families and so should all have railcards

 

[Horizon22]

But as someone with a railcard, since for whatever reason Reading isn't on oyster I'll be paying £9.10 more for that, so it is a disaster - most people I see using the train from Reading to London in off-peak are either under 30 or families and so should all have railcards

Maybe currently but pre-Covid Reading was a huge commuter hub for London.

As for not being on Oyster well that’s because they have run out of “areas” for Oyster to my understanding as it’s actually quite an old system using fairly basic data management.

 

[Watershed]

As has been stated elsewhere, two other significant issues with this suggestion are that:

1. Capping only operates on a Monday-Sunday basis - so any other pattern of travel (for example a shift worker who works Thursday-Tuesday then has a week off) is heavily penalised. With Travelcards (both 'paper' and smart/Oyster) you can buy them so as to start on any day you like.
2. Outboundary Travelcards (both the Day and Season varieties) are normally priced only slightly higher than the equivalent fare to London Terminals. Now you could argue that the outboundary Travelcards have been underpriced... But ultimately, if the Travelcard option is removed, an awful lot of people are going to pay extra for their commute, days out etc.

It's also the exact opposite of the integrated public transport that is needed to present people with a plausible alternative to their car. For all those TOCs that lack an integrated PAYG smartcard solution like what GTR and SWR offer, this means any journey from outside the Zones that involves LU/DLR will require two different forms of ticket.

Of course this is all just TfL playing politics in a bid to prise the Treasury's wallet open (and the Treasury have a lot to answer for here as well). But even the fact that it's even seen as a legitimate suggestion is appalling.

 

[matt_world2004]

Capping is done ùnder a different agreement the travelcard agreement reimburses on a per mile basis through the travelcard survey which penalises buses and tubes over national rail

The capping agreement assigns the revenue based on the modes where there has actually been a charge. Meaning once you reach a cap any operator you travel on after the cap been reached will not receive revenue . As most people start or end their journey on a bus this actually benefits the buses more

I believe the threat to withdraw from the travelcard agreement is a negotiating tactic to get a fairer revenue apportion for buses and tubes. Currently the travelcard revenue per bus journey that uses that ticket is less than what TfL receive in freedom pass revenue per bus journey

 

[Spamcan81]

Not impressed with these proposals. When I visit London I always buy an off peak Travelcard from my local Thameslink station. When in London I travel mostly by tube. If Travelcards are withdrawn for TfL travel I will switch to using NR service in London and where not available, I'll use my bus pass on the buses so Khan won't be getting any of my money.

 

[Bikeman78]

There would certainly be a considerable saving on not maintaining magstripe kit.

What happens now if a passenger has a mobile ticket which involves a cross London journey? Do staff have to let them through the barriers?

It's a pity that one cannot load a one day travelcard onto Oyster. As it stands, if I travel around on the Underground all day, presumably I am obliged to tap out and in every time I change direction or risk a penalty fare? Can Oyster even cope with someone tapping out at a station and then immediately tapping in again? I tried it years ago and it got utterly confused and charged me way over the one day price cap.

 

[jfollows]

What happens now if a passenger has a mobile ticket which involves a cross London journey? Do staff have to let them through the barriers?

No, tickets which include a cross-London transfer should only be issued as paper tickets with magnetic stripes. Occasionally this hasn't happened, by error.

 

[matt_world2004]

What happens now if a passenger has a mobile ticket which involves a cross London journey? Do staff have to let them through the barriers?

It's a pity that one cannot load a one day travelcard onto Oyster. As it stands, if I travel around on the Underground all day, presumably I am obliged to tap out and in every time I change direction or risk a penalty fare? Can Oyster even cope with someone tapping out at a station and then immediately tapping in again? I tried it years ago and it got utterly confused and charged me way over the one day price cap.

Mobile tickets aren't issued where there is validity on the tube sometimes a few slip through the net and appear in the staff bulletins to let people through in those circumstances

You can get a paper tfL services only travelcard for the exact same price as a normal travelcard which is a con.

 

[Watershed]

What happens now if a passenger has a mobile ticket which involves a cross London journey? Do staff have to let them through the barriers?

In theory, no such tickets should be sold. But if they are sold, then (again in theory) they should be accepted by LU.

In practice, occasionally such tickets are sold and where they're attempted to be used to cross London, barrier staff usually reject them.

It's a pity that one cannot load a one day travelcard onto Oyster. As it stands, if I travel around on the Underground all day, presumably I am obliged to tap out and in every time I change direction or risk a penalty fare?

You're only obliged to touch out before reaching the maximum journey time. If you're doing a 'bashing' trip it will often be cheaper to touch out and back in at a lower numbered Zone.

Can Oyster even cope with someone tapping out at a station and then immediately tapping in again? I tried it years ago and it got utterly confused and charged me way over the one day price cap.

If you're touching out and back in at a station with a gateline, that should be absolutely fine - the gates are set directionally so they know that you're touching out and then in.

The problem is when you have stations which only have standalone validators, as they can be used both to touch in and touch out. There are various rules as to when consecutive touches are joined up and when they're not, but the easiest course of action is simply to avoid touching out and back in (in quick succession) at such stations.