Long Distance Off Peak / Peak Query

[NSEUser]

Sorry if this has been answered before....

I've been traveling for years between Gatwick and Manchester Picc on an open off-peak rtn ticket (Mon-Fri). Virgin Trains are very clear about their peak and off-peak times. I tend to leave Euston on the 09.40 service heading northwards.

In order to get to Euston to take one of Virgin's first off-peak trains of the day, I need to travel over the Southern / Gatex / TL network on my off-peak ticket. This involves beginning my journey at about 8am.

It's my understanding that 'peak' and 'off-peak' is determined by the long-distance operator when traveling long distance.

This has always been fine until this week when a Southern ticket inspector told me my off-peak ticket (to get me up to London) wasn't valid.

I don't quite know where to find the rule, as I know I'm right that my ticket is valid on Southern in the peak (even the guy at my local ticket office knows I'm right but can't find where to look to give me something to print out and keep).

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[yorkie]

Due to the 'Network Area Rule' you can take any train from Gatwick to London.

Ticket inspectors employed by GTR are not always knowledgeable, so I am not surprised you were given incorrect information.

 

[yorkie]

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=GTW&dest=MAN&grpd=0438&ldn=1&tkt=SVR

NETWORK AREA:
The 'Network area' is defined
as the area in which the
Network railcard is valid. For
details see Network Railcard
map.

Off-Peak tickets for journeys
starting within the Network
Area to destinations outside
the Network Area with travel
via London are valid by any
train to London, to connect
with trains from London

 

[gray1404]

Please confirm that the GTR ticket inspector did not take your details or take your ticket from you or make you pay more?

 

[Gareth Marston]

The phrase "off peak" is totally meaningless there is no generic definition of it. It confuses passengers and seemingly our more poorly trained / less knowledgeable colleagues.

It should be replaced by "See restriction code for validity" or hevan forbid a national universal definition. no arrival into a major conurbation 0730 to 0930 odd departure 1630 to 1829.

 

[bkhtele]

Is there a source for this rule either on National rail or the internal knowledge base, that we can point staff to. Not sure tbey will always accept br fares.Thanks.

 

[Hadders]

It's documented in the restriction codes in Avantix Traveller which is publicly available via download from the Rail Delivery Group website.

Every booking engine implements the Network Area Rule too so an itinerary is also proof of its existence.

This isn't anything new, it's existed for donkeys years and a complaint needs to be made to GTR about this.

 

[Hadders]

9I is the restriction code covering the journey and this states:


www.nationalrail.co.uk/9I

Outward:

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45, except for Easements shown below;
London Kings Cross after 02:59 and before 09:06 or after 14:59 and before 18:59 (and before 18:15 on Fridays);
London Liverpool Street after 04:29 and before 09:31 or after 16:28 and before 18:35;
London Marylebone after 06:29 and before 09:00 or after 16:00 and before 19:00;
London Paddington after 04:29 and before 08:10 or after 16:40 and before 18:31;
London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 10:26 or after 15:15 and before 18:59;
London Waterloo after 04:29 and before 08:15;
Kensington Olympia after 04:29 and before 09:15 or after 15:14 and before 18:12;
Clapham Junction after 04:29 and before 09:30;
Bedford after 04:29 and before 09:01;
Luton or Luton Airport Parkway after 04:29 and before 09:01 or after 16:29 and before 18:59;
Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 and before 09:51;
Reading after 04:29 and before 08:35 or after 17:10 and before 19:01;
Stevenage after 02:59 and before 09:19 or after 15:06 and before 19:01 (and before 18:35 on Fridays);
Stratford (London) after 04:29 and before 09:30 or after 16:29 and before 18:34;
Watford Junction after 04:29 and before 09:38 or after 15:00 and before 18:38.

Return:
London Euston after 07:19 until 11:30, except Easements shown below;
London Kings Cross after 04:29 until 11:17;
London Liverpool Street before 10:00;
London Marylebone before 11:30;
London Paddington before 10:10;
London St Pancras International before 11:29;
London Waterloo before 10:00;
Kensington Olympia before 11:00;
Bedford before 09:30;
Luton or Luton Airport Parkway before 10:04;
Milton Keynes Central after 06:38 until 10:48;
Reading before 09:40;
Stevenage after 03:59 until 10:55;
Stratford (London) before 10:00;
Watford Junction after 06:43 until 10:45.

The restrictions are very specific, even without the clarification of the Network Area Rule, there is no mention of any restrictions between Gatwick Airport and London.

 

[NSEUser]

Thank you - very helpful. I spent an hour at my home station with the man in the ticket office (who also agreed I was right) - but he could not find any written reference to this 'rule'. He even called Brighton ticket office who agreed but didn't know where to find this in writing.

Thankfully I wasn't penalty fared or had my ticket taken off me - but I was given a stern warning and made to feel like I had done something wrong.

I guess this isn't as bad as the other week when they terminated an Eastbourne to Victoria train short of Victoria at E Croydon (late running) and before E Croydon the guard suggested (helpfully) everyone get off at Gatwick and catch the Gatex to reach Victoria. The OBS on the Gatex was having none of it though and penalty fared the dozens of people who didn't have valid Gatex tickets!

 

[yorkie]

Thank you - very helpful. I spent an hour at my home station with the man in the ticket office (who also agreed I was right) - but he could not find any written reference to this 'rule'. He even called Brighton ticket office who agreed but didn't know where to find this in writing.

All he had to do was look at the restriction code, which clearly states what restrictions apply to the ticket. No restrictions are mentioned from Gatwick.

If you were delayed for an hour I would put in a Delay Repay claim for your journey.

Thankfully I wasn't penalty fared or had my ticket taken off me - but I was given a stern warning and made to feel like I had done something wrong.

A Penalty Fare would be unlawful; the conditions of travel clearly state that if you had been travelling at an invalid time you should be charged an excess fare. Not a new ticket (unless cheaper), and certainly not a Penalty Fare.

As.for the warning, you could consider issuing a warning to the company that they are in breach of their obligations by providing incorrect information/warnings about ticket validity.

I guess this isn't as bad as the other week when they terminated an Eastbourne to Victoria train short of Victoria at E Croydon (late running) and before E Croydon the guard suggested (helpfully) everyone get off at Gatwick and catch the Gatex to reach Victoria. The OBS on the Gatex was having none of it though and penalty fared the dozens of people who didn't have valid Gatex tickets!

This is a breach of the Penalty Fare legislation as well as a breach of contract & consumer laws. Did you report it?

The appears to be a gang of rouge OBS staff employed by GTR to work their GX route, they are active on Twitter. They need to be dealt with appropriately.

GTR should have their license to issue Penalty Fares revoked.

I suspect many of those who have been wronged by the company have not reported the incidents to the relevant authorities, so nothing will end up being done about them, as usual.

By the way, there is not really any such concept as a "valid Gatex ticket"; it's a complete nonsense claim. If I encounter any of these individuals I'd like to challenge their ludicrous, wholly inaccurate, interpretation of the rules.

 

[northwichcat]

The phrase "off peak" is totally meaningless there is no generic definition of it. It confuses passengers and seemingly our more poorly trained / less knowledgeable colleagues.

It should be replaced by "See restriction code for validity" or hevan forbid a national universal definition. no arrival into a major conurbation 0730 to 0930 odd departure 1630 to 1829.

It used to be called Saver and the change to Off Peak Return was supposed to make ticketing easier to understand!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It used to be called Saver and the change to Off Peak Return was supposed to make ticketing easier to understand!

The problem is largely that "off peak" means "at a time when we'd lose too many passengers if we price-gouged" or "at a time when the Government has told us to", rather than "when it isn't busy".

 

[Gareth Marston]

The problem is largely that "off peak" means "at a time when we'd lose too many passengers if we price-gouged" or "at a time when the Government has told us to", rather than "when it isn't busy".

Most people have an understanding of "peak" as busy and "off peak" as not so. It is misleading.

Last time i left Euston on the 1643 on a weekday I had an Off Peak RTN portion back to Newtown (£68.00)- Valid, the two people opposite were on Off Peak Day Returns from Milton Keynes (£22.80) - valid and the poor sap next to me had an Anytime from New St - £176.00..........

 

[gray1404]

Can you please recall which Eastbourne train you were on and the date? I'll then be able to work out which GX service you boarded.

Are GX OBS authorised to issue PFs?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Is there a source for this rule either on National rail or the internal knowledge base, that we can point staff to. Not sure tbey will always accept br fares.Thanks.

The rule is normally written in to the restriction codes by the way they are worded. For example, Gatwick Airport-Manchester will have a restriction code that limits departure from London rather than Gatwick. Getting the troublesome staff to look at the restrictions codes however.....

 

[NSEUser]

Can you please recall which Eastbourne train you were on and the date? I'll then be able to work out which GX service you boarded.

Are GX OBS authorised to issue PFs?

Hello,

It was this service (attached). Left Wivelsfield (my home) almost on time - but was cancelled short of London Victoria due to late running (problems with attachment at Haywards Heath). If we wanted Victoria we were all advised to leave train at Gatwick and take a Gatex (sound advice by the Southern guard / OBS!).

I don't know whether 'penalty fare' is the correct term or whether 'excess fare' is better - but the OBS was definitely asking dozens of already disgruntled people for even more money despite them all protesting that they'd been told to take that train due to aforementioned cancellation.

 

[yorkie]

It is all the same company; normal fares are valid on it anyway. I'd refuse to pay and ensure they were reported.

 

[NSEUser]

I've had the attached response from Southern Customer Services - which (thanks to the other responses in this thread) shows they haven't got a clue. My only concern is that anyone else asking this question, might just believe them.....

 

[gray1404]

Would you be willing to report your experience to the train company? We can help you with the letter. Would you also be willing to appeal to Transport Focus if the reply you get is not satisfactory? It you would it would be a massive help as some of us on the forum here are most unhappy with this sort of practice.

As Yorkie said, its all the same train company, and the guard on your first train was correct saying to board that train.

 

[yorkie]

I've had the attached response from Southern Customer Services - which (thanks to the other responses in this thread) shows they haven't got a clue. My only concern is that anyone else asking this question, might just believe them.....

Totally clueless, but not unexpected from a UK train operating company, especially one as notoriously diabolical as Govia Thameslink Railway.

You could ask them to reconsider their response and/or refer the matter to Transport Focus, unfortunately they lack knowledgeable staff too.

 

[NSEUser]

I'd happily report either the matters formally I described - it drives me mad that those employed by TL / S / GN can't provide the correct answers - and cause so much confusion. Point me in the right direction and I can send something!

 

[yorkie]

There are contact details for GTR here: https://www.complaintsdepartment.co.uk/govia-thameslink-railway-gtr/

Govia Thameslink Railway is a train operating company that operates the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern (TSGN) rail franchise. Within the franchise, GTR runs the Thameslink, Great Northern, Southern and Gatwick Express airport services.


Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) complaints contacts

• Email Charles Horton (CEO) on [email][email protected][/EMAIL]
• Call Customer Services on 0345 026 4700
• Email Customer Services - London Area on [email][email protected][/EMAIL]
• Email Customer Services - Thameslink on [email][email protected][/EMAIL]
• Visit Customer Services Contact Form
• Email Customer Services Great Northern Rail (GTR) on [email][email protected][/EMAIL]
• Visit Delay Repay Form
• Tweet Great Northern
• Tweet Thameslink
• Follow Govia Thameslink Railway

And here is the form to escalate the matter to Transport Focus: https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint/