Long-term support/maintenance of industrial software

[Dai Corner]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfw-class-398-stadler-citylink-tram-trains.229459/

I take your point, the same applies to those 30+ year trains doing mileages they where never intended to do when designed and built.

Look at any mechanical vehicle from the pre train management system era, as long as huge amounts of money is thrown at tbh every 5/6 years they’ll keep on going as long as the money to repair the rot and rust is available.

Will a 231s operating system still be supported in 20 years time ?

How much of those 30+ year old trains, apart from the numbers painted or stuck on the side,is original? Not that much I bet.

The operating system will be supported as long as the money is there to pay for it, just like the mechanical and electrical bits. There is computer code running for banks and insurance companies, for example, that is much more than 30 years old.

 

[Signal_Box]

How much of those 30+ year old trains, apart from the numbers painted or stuck on the side,is original? Not that much I bet.

The operating system will be supported as long as the money is there to pay for it, just like the mechanical and electrical bits. There is computer code running for banks and insurance companies, for example, that is much more than 30 years old.

The bodyshell, well some of it will be original but not much else granted.

 

[AdamWW]

There is computer code running for banks and insurance companies, for example, that is much more than 30 years old.

Or TOPS as another example perhaps.

Or has that now been re-written from the ground up?

 

[jh64]

Electronic components from the 80s are much more of an issue as they can be quite unique and almost impossible to replace. "Modern" systems not so much. In general, they are using standardised interfaces, so you don't need to have a 1:1 replacement. You can plug in a newer hardware part providing the same function using the same interface.

An "operating system" doesn't need much support as long as you don't touch it. Even if you have to update it, it can be done. When the replacing of GTO converters with IGBT converters and lots of other changes on SBBs Re460 fleet took place, the software had to be adapted. These things were designed more than 20 years ago, but it is still possible to update them. That was a major change, not just putting on a few new parameters. Just don't throw away the manual.

I found this link provided by ABB regarding these changes:

ABB

For an example from a different industry, take a look at how cinemas use a tablet emulating a 20-year-old PalmOS device to control an IMAX projector. Certainly not as safety critical as onboard train systems, but quite clever all the same.

IMAX emulates PalmPilot software to power Oppenheimer’s 70 mm release

IMAX TikTok shows an emulated Palm PDA controlling Oppenheimer's 600-lb reel.

arstechnica.com

...Palm Computing, which endured a series of acquisitions before HP sunset the brand in 2011, made other devices besides PalmPilots. One of those is the Palm m130, which is apparently IMAX projectionists' ideal controller for running 70 mm film.

As shown in IMAX's TikTok video below, the 70 mm print for Oppenheimer is so large that they had to extend their film platter. That's fascinating and all, but so is the emulated 2002 PDA apparently running things.

According to The Verge, the TikTok video shows the PDA emulated on a 10.1-inch Windows tablet for businesses, the Winmate W10IB3S-PCH2AC-POE Panel PC. It's easy to find Palm OS emulators online, as noted by Vice's Motherboard.

The PDA emulation controls the theater's Quick Turn Reel Units (where workers load the physical film reels), which can also have integrated controllers instead.

 

[Signal_Box]

Oh no, don't embrace the throw away society - we need to make things that last !.

You do realise the railway and country are a little thin on the ground financially and will be for at least a decade providing longer?! Keeping things going is going to be name of the game from now on.

Or TOPS as another example perhaps.

Or has that now been re-written from the ground up?

No idea about its upgrades, but it’s one of those systems that was so well designed it still works and is efficient today. Why redesign the wheel and probably cock it up in the process ?

 

[bahnause]

No idea about its upgrades, but it’s one of those systems that was so well designed it still works and is efficient today. Why redesign the wheel and probably cock it up in the process ?

One reason may be hardware. You might run out if parts. Same with the backend, databases might need updating due to security reasons. The second reason is new functions. Our drivers started using an electronic timetavle in 2003(?). It started on a Psion, the actual version is on an iPad. The change of the hardware requires a new software.

New functions do too. The software still might look very similar at first glance, but the amount of changes and improvements are vast. It is still usable completely offline, but new online functionalities support efficient driving and offer a lot more flexibility like an automatic detection of planned detours of your train. One click and the new route is shown, including the updated timetable. One the backend gets the correct data, it might even work...

 

[Prime586]

Or TOPS as another example perhaps.

Or has that now been re-written from the ground up?

TOPS and the associated systems around it were written in IBM BAL (Basic Assembly Language) and PL/1 and ran on System/370 mainframes. Eventually it was becoming too expensive for the privatised BR Computing Services to keep their Crewe and Nottingham datacentres going, and so the running of their systems was outsourced to ATOS at their datacentre in Andover. It is now probably running as virtual machines under the IBM z/OS System/360 virtualisation platform on oneof ATOS' IBM Z mainframe servers.