Long turn-rounds at quiet terminus stations

[nw1]

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I think it's similar for the Alderley Edge terminators, they sit in one of the turnback sidings for a good 40 minutes.

Better to have a long turn around time than too little.

Indeed, I always thought some of the shorter turnaround times were a bit crazy. IIRC at one time the Victoria-Southampton Central was in xx05, out xx11. Very tight for a total journey of 2hr+. No wonder they always turned back at Fareham; can't help thinking it would have been better (off-peak at least, when there was spare stock around) to interwork the Victoria and Brighton services at SOU to allow longer turnarounds and recovery time. (There are sidings available at the west end of the station if they could not lay over in the platforms). Could have been a good way for units to get back to the depot if needed too.

Kings Lynn is an interesting example.

20 years ago the down trains were xx45 from Kings Cross arriving at Kings Lynn at xx19 for a journey time of 94 minutes. There was a 37 minute turnround at Kings Lynn with departure of up trains at xx56, arriving Kings Cross xx33 for a journey time of 97 minutes.

Now the down trains are xx42 from Kings Cross arriving at Kings Lynn at xx31 for a journey time of 111 minutes. There is a 13 minute turnround at Kings Lynn with departure of up trains at xx44, mostly arriving Kings Cross xx33 for a journey time of 109 minutes.

So significantly slower journeys, and this is despite the fact there are lots of Thameslink services to pick up the intermediate stops to Cambridge. OT I know, but why is this?

 

[306024]

Southminster is half hour turn around on Sundays except first and last.

Otherwise, 15 minutes weekdays off-peak.

10 minute turnround off peak and Saturday, all timed to connect at Wickford as best as possible, bearing in mind the two trains have to pass at North Fambridge.

 

[dk1]

So significantly slower journeys, and this is despite the fact there are lots of Thameslink services to pick up the intermediate stops to Cambridge. OT I know, but why is this?

Thameslink doesn’t make any difference as the Kings Lynn/Ely services have always run non-stop Cambridge to Kings Cross for most of the day. Some additional time was added to improve reliability especially when they used to attach/detach. Cambridge North is also an additional calling point these days too.

 

[nw1]

Thameslink doesn’t make any difference as the Kings Lynn/Ely services have always run non-stop Cambridge to Kings Cross for most of the day. Some additional time was added to improve reliability especially when they used to attach/detach. Cambridge North is also an additional calling point these days too.

My point re. Thameslink was that I assumed that the slower journey times might be due to additional stops between KX and Cambridge.

Can't help thinking that, from a passenger convenience POV, it's better to improve reliability with long turnarounds rather than long journey times, where possible. (And on this line, I presume it is possible, as that is what they used to do).

 

[dk1]

My point re. Thameslink was that I assumed that the slower journey times might be due to additional stops between KX and Cambridge.

Can't help thinking that, from a passenger convenience POV, it's better to improve reliability with long turnarounds rather than long journey times, where possible. (And on this line, I presume it is possible, as that is what they used to do).

The Kings Lynn to Ely section is always going to be a bit of a headache due to it’s single line sections. Hopefully once Ely North Jcn is upgraded the planned half-hourly service will commence by projecting the Ely terminators through. Having all trains 8-cars throughout has helped with overcrowding, timekeeping & confidence passengers are in the correct portion on down departures from London.

 

[william.martin]

Seen train crew on the Birmingham New Street to Shrewsbury line sitting around in Costa at Shrewsbury before, stupid long turn around time for a line of its size and frequency of 1TPH. Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

 

[306024]

Seen train crew on the Birmingham New Street to Shrewsbury line sitting around in Costa at Shrewsbury before, stupid long turn around time for a line of its size and frequency of 1TPH. Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

Traincrew in coffee drinking shock!

Stupid long turnround? I’m no expert in timetabling the Coventry - Wolverhampton corridor, but what would be your timetabling proposal to make it more efficient without worsening other services.

 

[Parallel]

I think the late evening Exmouth - Barnstaple train on Fridays usually has a fair turnaround of around 35 minutes, when most others have around a 10-12 min turn around throughout the day.

Wasn’t actually the case on the Friday just gone however as the train arrived 23 minutes late on its inbound working from Exmouth.

 

[william.martin]

Traincrew in coffee drinking shock!

Stupid long turnround? I’m no expert in timetabling the Coventry - Wolverhampton corridor, but would be your timetabling proposal to make it more efficient without worsening other services.

At no point did I say that it could be changed, I just find it a bit annoying to have a 170/ 196 lying around doing nothing, though I am aware that there isn't a solution without making huge changes to the entire timetable on the WCML and stour valley line.

 

[JonathanH]

Seen train crew on the Birmingham New Street to Shrewsbury line sitting around in Costa at Shrewsbury before, stupid long turn around time for a line of its size and frequency of 1TPH. Sorry if this has already been mentioned.

It isn't stupid if Shrewsbury has the place to park the train and Birmingham New Street doesn't. The running time is such that a 1tph timetable can't be run with two cycles, regardless of what path it has. That said, 2tph could potentially be run with five cycles, rather than six.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Marlow? No I had only 10 minutes to take pics last Sunday! Henley? Only 3 minutes on Sunday 23rd, so I had to get the next departure!

9 minutes off peak and longest peak time weight is 18minutes

 

[william.martin]

It isn't stupid if Shrewsbury has the place to park the train and Birmingham New Street doesn't. The running time is such that a 1tph timetable can't be run with two diagrams, regardless of what path it has.

As said in my previous post, I am aware that there is no resolution and the point that I am trying to get at is that it sits around in the platform for a while, which is what this thread is all about. I am not suggesting that the timetable ought be remodeled.

 

[ctrh136]

In the September timetable Caterham has a 31 minute turnaround now.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, should always be a service boarding was one of the advertising claims.

That was also one of the ideas behind the 20 minute Avanti frequency between Euston and both Birmingham and Manchester. Worked well for a while, especially at Manchester. Obviously a hollow laugh nowadays.

The Wirral electrics from Liverpool have some longer turnrounds, such as 10 minutes at New Brighton on a 15-minute interval service. Each branch runs independently and is interleaved on the Liverpool loop. Some years ago the trains returned to different lines, and visited all the termini on a repeating pattern through the day. This was the most efficient scheduling of trains, but had the downside that it would completely disorganise all the branches in the event of any disruption on just one of them. Eventually it was determined better to add one train to the circuit, and run them on the same route all day.

 

[jfollows]

I think the alternate hours calls at Middlewood and Dove Holes are more about lack of demand rather than tight timetabling - and it does make the slow journey to Buxton marginally less slow.

If true, then I think it's silly - it's been the case for a while now and I have simply given up on going to Middlewood when faced with a return trip of one train every two hours.
The Styal call in the Manchester-Airport-Crewe was one of the good things about the May 2018 timetable: the timetable prior to this didn't allow enough time for the turnaround at Crewe as well as the call at Styal. This was just silly because the reality was that the trains arrived in Wilmslow early almost all the time, but the timetable rules exist for a purpose and they didn't allow the call. Fortunately this is now an hourly service and I find it convenient to use it occasionally.

 

[Driver2B]

Of course. It’s no different to having breakfast/lunch in a buffet that sells alcohol.

Really?!

Certainly a definite no-no at my TOC. Certainly in uniform!

I'd just like to occasionally go in Pizza Express during PNB, but the fact that they serve alcohol for on site consumption makes it a no-go!

 

[dk1]

Really?!

Certainly a definite no-no at my TOC. Certainly in uniform!

I'd just like to occasionally go in Pizza Express during PNB, but the fact that they serve alcohol for on site consumption makes it a no-go!

That’s sounds very unfair. It’s no more than a cafe bar really. Been going in for over 20 years for breakfast at my home station & there’s one opposite 2 others we are booked PNB at. I’ve even had part of R&R exam in there once. Across the country in Liverpool the local driver managers were at the opening of The North Western on Lime Street & even appeared in Wetherspoons magazine.

 

[najaB]

Certainly a definite no-no at my TOC. Certainly in uniform!

Is it actually a no-no (as in a disciplinary offence) or just something that's seen as socially unacceptable among the drivers to maintain a professional image?

 

[Driver2B]

Is it actually a no-no (as in a disciplinary offence) or just something that's seen as socially unacceptable among the drivers to maintain a professional image?

The uniform policy states that uniform must not be worn in licenced premesis. That technically means that we shouldn't be getting a meal deal in Tesco Express, but it's interpreted to mean premesis licenced for on-site consumption.

 

[dk1]

The uniform policy states that uniform must not be worn in licenced premesis. That technically means that we shouldn't be getting a meal deal in Tesco Express, but it's interpreted to mean premesis licenced for on-site consumption.

If there’s major disruption, our local Spoon will normally be busier than the messroom. Can’t go wrong with unlimited tea/coffee for £1.35.

 

[Efini92]

Clitheroe is another example (ish) where the service arrives generally at :56 departing at :23 minutes past the next hour, however the ish part is the unit is not sat the whole dwell time in the station as it reverses from platform 2 to platform 1 via Horrocksford Junction, this ECS move more often than not takes around 5 minutes platform to platform rather than the allotted 17 minutes allowed for the move thus spending more dwell time on the station.

Apart from one service in the afternoon that only had a couple of minutes turn round time. Caught a few train crew out that didn’t check their diagrams and nipped to booths.

 

[Driver2B]

If there’s major disruption, our local Spoon will normally be busier than the messroom. Can’t go wrong with unlimited tea/coffee for £1.35.

So many drivers at our place have a Pret subscription, that it's a de facto messroom. Not usually much space for the general public!

 

[dk1]

Seems so strange & like your TOC doesn’t trust you. Our buffet cars sell alcohol for consumption & we sit in there. Doesn’t mean will swig a crafty G&T too.

So many drivers at our place have a Pret subscription, that it's a de facto messroom. Not usually much space for the general public!

I was going to do that but I’d need lots of Filter Coffees to make it worthwhile.

 

[Driver2B]

Seems so strange & like your TOC doesn’t trust you. Our buffet cars sell alcohol for consumption & we sit in there. Doesn’t mean will swig a crafty G&T too.


I was going to do that but I’d need lots of Filter Coffees to make it worthwhile.

Until reading your post earlier, I just thought it was usual for all TOCs!

 

[nw1]

If true, then I think it's silly - it's been the case for a while now and I have simply given up on going to Middlewood when faced with a return trip of one train every two hours.

I don't know Middlewood so well but I do remember it being advertised as "for the Middlewood Way", which I think is a walking route on an old railway line?

Might be fair enough to have 1tp2h this time of year, but I would suggest an hourly service at weekends from say March to October, and even weekdays in the summer. And given that, one might as well make it hourly 7 days a week all year.

Would it not be better to skip Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme and have those stations served solely by electrics?

 

[Undiscovered]

As said in my previous post, I am aware that there is no resolution and the point that I am trying to get at is that it sits around in the platform for a while, which is what this thread is all about. I am not suggesting that the timetable ought be remodeled.

There is a resolution.
The xx45 (to round to an easy figure) departures from SHR arrive at BHM to depart back at xx00.
Those arrive into SHR at xx08 to form the xx13 semi-fast (WLN, TFC, SFN CSL, WVH, BHM) services, arriving xx25 to form xx35 semi fasts back to SHR which then form xx45 departures back to BHM. Rinse, repeat.
In recent 196 training, these xx13 paths have been used.



xx denotes the hour- saves writing out every single hour when services regularly depart at the same time each hour (or thereabouts)
SHR is Shrewsbury (station)
WLN is Wellington
TFC is telford
SFN is shifnal
CSL is Codsall
WVH is Wolverhampton
BHM is Birmingham New Street

196 denotes a Class 196 DMU which is a train used along that particular line. Class 170s are also used. These are trains too.
DMU stands for Diesel Multiple Unit.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Ardrossan Harbour is another one, on weekdays and Saturdays trains usually have just over 30 minutes there.

 

[Steve Harris]

What is Whitby like nowadays? I once visited on a ALR and had to take a walk down the High Street to waste time, as the layover was something like 50-60 mins (that was in the late 90's).

 

[jfollows]

I don't know Middlewood so well but I do remember it being advertised as "for the Middlewood Way", which I think is a walking route on an old railway line?

Might be fair enough to have 1tp2h this time of year, but I would suggest an hourly service at weekends from say March to October, and even weekdays in the summer. And given that, one might as well make it hourly 7 days a week all year.

Would it not be better to skip Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme and have those stations served solely by electrics?

I don't see the point of one train every two hours at Middlewood if the reason isn't turnaround times at Buxton (which I used to think) and my attempted use of the station has been as much in winter as in summer. Be that as it may, it's a nice reminder to me that I should go out on a walk from Middlewood to Poynton soon; I lived in Poynton 1961-1976 so I have some nice memories of the area and it looks like there's a good walk along a footpath along the former Higher Poynton railway line too. Poynton's only hourly too, these days, but that's more easy to work around!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What is Whitby like nowadays?

Quite a nice place to visit, but if we're still talking about train turnaround times, seems (mostly) to be around eight to ten minutes or so during the week.