Longer Distance Service You Didn't Expect Without Changing

[61653 HTAFC]

Ah, yes. Alphaline it was. Nothing so grand as jfollows' HST. IIRC the train was just a three car unit with a refreshment trolley in the rear vestibule.

It would have been two or four coaches, as it used 158s and W&W didn't have any three car sets. I used the Manchester version end-to-end a couple of times just so I could say I'd done it. It went via Salisbury, Bristol Temple Meads and the Newport avoiding curve.

 

[Ken H]

Turning up at Gt Malvern station for the quick hop to Malvern Link to find the next one was going to Weymouth!

 

[Andy873]

The Paignton-Rose Grove and Blackpool-Blythe Bridge were a couple of other summer dated trains with oddball destinations.

I remember reading about the Rose Grove to Paignton running on Saturdays and clean forgot about it. It was an inter city "holidaymaker" which ran via Preston and Birmingham New Street, 06:50 from Rose Grove (1989).

I think for operational reasons (the line beyond Gannow Junction through Burnley to Colne) had not long since been singled, okay for DMU's but not for an engine pulling the train. So Rose Grove would have been the closest station to Burnley Central that was practical? I would have thought it should have started a little further west, say Accrington?

 

[Ken H]

I remember reading about the Rose Grove to Paignton running on Saturdays and clean forgot about it. It was an inter city "holidaymaker" which ran via Preston and Birmingham New Street, 06:50 from Rose Grove (1989).

I think for operational reasons (the line beyond Gannow Junction through Burnley to Colne) had not long since been singled, okay for DMU's but not for an engine pulling the train. So Rose Grove would have been the closest station to Burnley Central that was practical? I would have thought it should have started a little further west, say Accrington?

Think the train started at Leeds. (Neville Hill?) Ran ECS to Rose Hill. Rose Hill has/had long platforms.

 

[The exile]

Not as exotic as some previously mentioned, but around 1980 I was a student at Birmingham and there was a through train from New Street to all/most stations between Bristol Temple Meads and Taunton. I don't remember where it started; possibly as far north as Scotland.

Saved me changing at Temple Meads for Nailsea & Blackwell.

Don’t remember stopping in long-distance services between Bristol and Weston, but Highbridge and Bridgwater used to be regular stops on the intercity services - there was precious little else.

 

[Andy873]

Think the train started at Leeds. (Neville Hill?) Ran ECS to Rose Hill. Rose Hill has/had long platforms.

That would make sense to me, of course we would need a 1989 WTT to confirm where it came from. Rose Grove is just west of Gannow Junction which runs onto the copy pit line for Yorkshire. The train was marketed as the "holidaymaker" so you could get to Paignton say around lunchtime and return the following Saturday leaving I think around 14:10. The route from Rose Grove would take in the main towns along the East Lancs line onwards to Preston, so hopefully plenty of passengers for this one.

Question: Does anyone know when this service stopped? and are any such "holiday" trains now?

 

[nw1]

I used to see the Harwich Boat Train in the late 1970s; by then it terminated at Manchester Piccadilly and ran via the Hope Valley. At Piccadilly it stopped well short in platform 5 so its engine could run round the stock through platform 6 and work the service back to Harwich at 15:15. It's just telling how few platforms were in use at the time at Piccadilly given that 11 & 12 weren't used either, and 10 rarely, but it was still fine blocking 5 & 6 with the former being used for the stock for over an hour.

So there were points and a track link between 5 and 6 near the buffers? (if the train is doing what I think you're describing, i.e. loco comes off the front and runs round).

Not heard of that arrangement before but I can see how useful it could potentially be, as it means the same loco can bring a train into a terminus and then out again. Probably a subject for another thread.

 

[JonathanH]

Question: Does anyone know when this service stopped? and are any such "holiday" trains now?

No such holiday trains to the West Country now. Just the standard CrossCountry timetable really. The last vestige of "holiday" trains are longer unit formations from Derby to Skegness in the summer.

Rose Grove to Paignton finished in 1992.

 

[jfollows]

That would make sense to me, of course we would need a 1989 WTT to confirm where it came from. Rose Grove is just west of Gannow Junction which runs onto the copy pit line for Yorkshire. The train was marketed as the "holidaymaker" so you could get to Paignton say around lunchtime and return the following Saturday leaving I think around 14:10. The route from Rose Grove would take in the main towns along the East Lancs line onwards to Preston, so hopefully plenty of passengers for this one.

Question: Does anyone know when this service stopped? and are any such "holiday" trains now?

16/5/88 to 14/5/89 WTT:

• 1V39 06:32 Rose Grove to Paignton D315 SO UNTIL 1 OCT, Accrington 06:41, Blackburn 06:51h, Preston 07r24 (E315)
• 1M85 12:10 Paignton to Rose Grove, D210 SO UNTIL 1 OCT, Preston 17D48h, Blackburn 18:17h, Accrington 18:29h, Rose Grove 18:36h
• 5H43 19:33 ECS to Longsight

No ECS working shown to form 1V39, a misprint I think.

EDIT It's not in my 1991/92 WTT which is the next one I have covering the area. It's in my 14/5/90 to 12/5/91 Western WTTs as 1V40 calling at Birmingham New Street 09p31, Bristol Temple Meads 10N51-10N55, Taunton, Exeter, Dawlish Warren 12D11-12D20 overtaken by 1V39 07:03 York-Penzance HST, Dawlish, Teignmouth, Newton Abbot, Torquay, Paignton 13:00 (advertised 13:05).

p - advertised 1 minute earlier
N - stop not advertised
D - stop to set down only
r - advertised 3 minutes earlier
h - half a minute

 

[nw1]

Not as exotic as some previously mentioned, but around 1980 I was a student at Birmingham and there was a through train from New Street to all/most stations between Bristol Temple Meads and Taunton. I don't remember where it started; possibly as far north as Scotland.

Saved me changing at Temple Meads for Nailsea & Blackwell.

This definitely existed in 1983 as far as Weston-super-Mare at least: I saw it in a workings book recently on the BR Coaching Stock group in groups.io. It was an afternoon "XC" Manchester-Bristol which arrived Bristol between 1700 and 1800 and then extended to Weston-super-Mare as an evening peak additional. calling at most or all stations. Very neat way of efficiently using the stock.

 

[hexagon789]

I was at Penzance waiting to board the SO train to Milton Keynes in 1987 when a somewhat bemused local gentleman asked me where Milton Keynes actually was.

It was an oddity of a train, to be fair. I think it only ran that one year. Set of WCML Mk3s as well.

It was a standard Saturday operation for many years, it even continued under Virgin. There was also a Manchester and by the 90s, a Preston working.

In 1986 as an example, you had:

1V46 FO 2326 Manchester Piccadilly-Paignton & 1M37 SO 0820 Paignton-Man. Picc.

1V36 SO 0715 Milton Keynes Central-Penzance & 1M82 SO 1540 Penzance-Milton Keynes Central

These both used Wembley-based Manchester Pullman sets.

 

[nw1]

In NSE days there was a Saturday service which came down from Richmond (Surrey) and, I think, as far as Reading, which went via the Latchmere lines and then the Chatham Main Line to Dover (first stop Ashford). Rail mileage (at the time) around Clapham Junction. Don’t think it lasted more than a summer.

Interesting, don't remember that at all. Presumably a South Western Division service acting as some kind of holidaymaker special, geared at ferries to France? So Reading to France, late 80s or early 90s style: NSE VEP to Dover, ferry to Calais and then "classic" SNCF onwards. Very different to today!

 

[JonathanH]

16/5/88 to 14/5/89 WTT:

• 1V39 06:32 Rose Grove to Paignton D315 SO UNTIL 1 OCT, Accrington 06:41, Blackburn 06:51h, Preston 07r24 (E315)
• 1M85 12:10 Paignton to Rose Grove, D210 SO UNTIL 1 OCT, Preston 17D48h, Blackburn 18:17h, Accrington 18:29h, Rose Grove 18:36h
• 5H43 19:33 ECS to Longsight

No ECS working shown to form 1V39, a misprint I think.

Presumably it ran round the stock at Rose Grove and returned via Darwen, rather than going via Copy Pit then?

 

[nw1]

Does anyone recall the trains which ran from Wales to Waterloo to provide a connection with Eurostar? I came across one once which greatly simplified a return from Cardiff to Clapham Junction. IIRC the route was quite interesting and involved stops at Westbury and Salisbury. To reinforce the Eurostar connection, the guard even managed bi-lingual announcements - well, after a fashion!

Could even be tetralingual, potentially, I guess: certainly for Brussels connections.

 

[jfollows]

Presumably it ran round the stock at Rose Grove and returned via Darwen, rather than going via Copy Pit then?

It ran round, yes, but went via Farington Junction, Euxton Junction and Chorley, actually. It was air-conditioned stock, presumably one of the standard cross-country sets stabled at Longsight. But the empty stock working in the morning is strangely missing from more than one WTT where I'd expect to see it.

 

[nw1]

Struggling to think of any beyond what have already been mentioned, but three (kind of) - one with an odd starting point, one with an odd ending point and one not in the UK. The non-UK one I have personally observed, the first two were discovered through looking at the 1982 GBTT on Timetable World.

1. In 1982/3, the first Paddington-Manchester XC at around 0600 started at Ealing Broadway, not Paddington, presumably off an ECS from OOC. Thus, Ealing Broadway had a rare IC service to the Midlands and North.

2. Also in 1982/3, one of the afternoon Manchester southbound XCs terminated at Didcot, rather than extending to Reading or Paddington. Thus, there was a rare link between the northwest and Didcot, generally skipped by XC services.

3. Overseas, the Berchtesgaden branch in the Bavarian Alps is generally served by an hourly shuttle from Freilassing operated by BLB EMUs. However one path in the afternoon is (or was, in the first half of the 2010s, no idea about now) instead used by a loco-hauled IC service which originated somewhere far away in the north of Germany. This seems to be a very common German style of operation: clockface services on track segments between Hbf "nodes", but with variable starting and ending points.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

In the heady early days of privatisation North Western Trains / First North Western attempted a Rochdale to Euston service. They also ran Manchester Airport to Euston using Cl 322s, but because of the moderation of competition rules had to call at Alderley Edge instead of Wilmslow. I travelled from Euston back to Alderley once - I seem to remember it had an extended wait at Tamworth for pathing reasons. Central Trains also ran to Manchester Airport from the Stoke direction, but again were not permitted to call at Wilmslow - they were very lightly loaded as I recall.

The CT Service was the hourly North Staffs Line Service mostly originating from Nottingham but occasionally IIRC from Skegness
Withdrawn in 2003 I believe

 

[Ken H]

I must have misremembered about the ECS for the Rose Grove - Paignton. Sorry

 

[nw1]

It was a standard Saturday operation for many years, it even continued under Virgin. There was also a Manchester and by the 90s, a Preston working.

In 1986 as an example, you had:

1V46 FO 2326 Manchester Piccadilly-Paignton & 1M37 SO 0820 Paignton-Man. Picc.

1V36 SO 0715 Milton Keynes Central-Penzance & 1M82 SO 1540 Penzance-Milton Keynes Central

These both used Wembley-based Manchester Pullman sets.

Which route did this go? Birmingham, or via the OOC-Willesden link?

 

[jfollows]

One of my favourites was 1V76 08:45 SO Liverpool to Penzance which avoided Birmingham New Street by going through Walsall and Sutton Park (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Park_line) but there used to be a whole number of trains which avoided Birmingham on summer Saturdays, it was relatively easy for trains from Derby. They were advertised trains but made some unadvertised stops (like 1V39/1V40 above calling at Bristol Temple Meads) but also had some quite unusual non-stop runs.

Attached is from 1974

 

[Andy873]

16/5/88 to 14/5/89 WTT:

• 1V39 06:32 Rose Grove to Paignton D315 SO UNTIL 1 OCT, Accrington 06:41, Blackburn 06:51h, Preston 07r24 (E315)
• 1M85 12:10 Paignton to Rose Grove, D210 SO UNTIL 1 OCT, Preston 17D48h, Blackburn 18:17h, Accrington 18:29h, Rose Grove 18:36h
• 5H43 19:33 ECS to Longsight

No ECS working shown to form 1V39, a misprint I think.

EDIT It's not in my 1991/92 WTT which is the next one I have covering the area. It's in my 14/5/90 to 12/5/91 Western WTTs calling at Birmingham New Street 09p31, Bristol Temple Meads 10N51-10N55, Taunton, Exeter, Dawlish Warren 12D11-12D20 overtaken by 1V39 07:03 York-Penzance HST, Dawlish, Teignmouth, Newton Abbot, Torquay, Paignton 13:00 (advertised 13:05).

p - advertised 1 minute earlier
N - stop not advertised
D - stop to set down only
r - advertised 3 minutes earlier
h - half a minute

@jfollows thanks for that, it's very interesting as are the other replies, thanks everyone.

Going back a little further, my 1962 WTT shows a SO from Lincoln to Blackpool. The destination isn't surprising but I would have thought someone from Lincoln might have preferred to go to say Cornwall or Brighton... then again Blackpool was a big draw as are most coastal resorts.

 

[Ken H]

@jfollows thanks for that, it's very interesting as are the other replies, thanks everyone.

Going back a little further, my 1962 WTT shows a SO from Lincoln to Blackpool. The destination isn't surprising but I would have thought someone from Lincoln might have preferred to go to say Cornwall or Brighton... then again Blackpool was a big draw as are most coastal resorts.

Which way did it go. I imagine it would have gone through industrial Yorkshire somehow.

 

[Magdalia]

So there were points and a track link between 5 and 6 near the buffers? (if the train is doing what I think you're describing, i.e. loco comes off the front and runs round).

This was a fairly common arrangement. Platforms 2 and 3 were like this at both Norwich and Yarmouth.

It even used to be possible to do it at some London termini for example platforms 11 and 12 at Liverpool Street.

Going back a little further, my 1962 WTT shows a SO from Lincoln to Blackpool.

This lasted until 1975.

 

[nw1]

This was a fairly common arrangement. Platforms 2 and 3 were like this at both Norwich and Yarmouth.

It even used to be possible to do it at some London termini for example platforms 11 and 12 at Liverpool Street.

Ah, ok - thanks.

 

[Andy873]

This lasted until 1975.

Thanks, I was wondering about when the Lincoln - Blackpool service stopped.

On the flip side to all of this was whilst talking on here I think last year, two of us were surprised to see in the 1962 WTT that there were summer day excursions from Blackpool to Lake Windermere in the Lake district - that is from one tourist hotspot to another.

 

[D1537]

Which route did this go? Birmingham, or via the OOC-Willesden link?

Birmingham. It changed locomotives from electric to diesel and vice/versa at Coventry. Usually a 47/4, but had the odd 50 if Saltley had one spare.

 

[jfollows]

Which route did this go? Birmingham, or via the OOC-Willesden link?

All went via Birmingham (https://www.branchline.uk/psul/1986-7.pdf):

So there were points and a track link between 5 and 6 near the buffers? (if the train is doing what I think you're describing, i.e. loco comes off the front and runs round).

Not heard of that arrangement before but I can see how useful it could potentially be, as it means the same loco can bring a train into a terminus and then out again. Probably a subject for another thread.

Yes, you describe exactly what happened. The train arrived at 13:18. stopped short, the loco detached and moved forward to the buffers, then went through the points and along the adjacent platform, out of the station, and reversed again to back onto the stock. The train then sat there looking slightly strange for almost two hours because of the gap at the concourse/buffer end until it left at 15:15.
The points and crossing mouldered away in place for many years. It could even be rusting away gently there today, although it probably isn't.

The loco was a Stratford 37 when it still ran over Woodhead in the late 1960s, having previously been electrically hauled from Sheffield, but by the time I saw it it was a "Peak" class 45 or occasionally class 46.

EDIT Attached is the down working, over Woodhead, with a diesel locomotive in 1969 just prior to its diversion via the Hope Valley the following year. Ardwick was the point at which it was crossed to the fast lines, so it was important to check that it was diesel-hauled at that point because of the different overhead electrification systems (1500v DC on the EL, 25000v AC on the FL).

 

[nw1]

All went via Birmingham (https://www.branchline.uk/psul/1986-7.pdf):
View attachment 133675


Yes, you describe exactly what happened. The train arrived at 13:18. stopped short, the loco detached and moved forward to the buffers, then went through the points and along the adjacent platform, out of the station, and reversed again to back onto the stock. The train then sat there looking slightly strange for almost two hours because of the gap at the concourse/buffer end until it left at 15:15.
The points and crossing mouldered away in place for many years. It could even be rusting away gently there today, although it probably isn't.

The loco was a Stratford 37 when it still ran over Woodhead in the late 1960s, having previously been electrically hauled from Sheffield, but by the time I saw it it was a "Peak" class 45 or occasionally class 46.

OK thanks for that. Thanks also to you and @D1537 for the info re. the Milton Keynes service.

 

[Magdalia]

The loco was a Stratford 37 when it still ran over Woodhead in the late 1960s, having previously been electrically hauled from Sheffield, but by the time I saw it it was a "Peak" class 45 or occasionally class 46.

EDIT Attached is the down working, over Woodhead, with a diesel locomotive in 1969 just prior to its diversion via the Hope Valley the following year. Ardwick was the point at which it was crossed to the fast lines, so it was important to check that it was diesel-hauled at that point because of the different overhead electrification systems (1500v DC on the EL, 25000v AC on the FL).

As far as I'm aware the boat train was never electric hauled all the way from Sheffield Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly.

When the train ran to Liverpool Central via Manchester Central, and was electric hauled over Woodhead, it changed locos at Guide Bridge. I think there is a brief period around 1962/63 when the Stratford EE Type 3 worked to/from Guide Bridge.

When it was diverted to Manchester Piccadilly it did indeed have to be diesel hauled because it used platform 5.

Was there a run round in any of platforms 1-4 at Manchester Piccadilly for the DC electrics?

 

[Helvellyn]

The Sussex Scot from Glasgow to Brighton.

Glasgow Central/Edinburgh Waverley to Brighton in the late 1980s (one of the Carstairs splitters). Interestingly in the Summer Timetables this (and other "Scots") only carried their title Mon-Fri - Saturday saw the use of the "InterCity Holidaymaker" name for many services instead. What was unique about the erstwhile Sussex Scot was that on a Saturday the service was actually Glasgow Central/Edinburgh Waverley to/from Eastbourne!