Lost season tickets

[barrykas]

There might be some merit in this suggestion, especially given the tendency of paper tickets to fade and wear out.

Anybody see any down-sides?

From an accountancy point of view, the TOC would need to create new ticket types at the lower rate which would need to be suppressed in most Ticket Issuing Systems so they weren't issued in error.

If they issued them by doing a fare override they'd get a fares mismatch loss for each ticket, and there isn't a whole percentage discount that could be applied to produce the "correct" price.

 

[ModernRailways]

A way they could do it, is for people to have to buy their pass monthly at the monthly cost, and then at the end of the year, they would be refunded for the extra they may have paid. The person who holds the ticket must have their ticket valid for the whole year though and not miss any days. For example, their monthly pass expires on a Sunday, but it's a Bank Holiday Monday and so they don't need to go out. They may miss that day, that would make them ineligible for a refund at the end of the year. However, had they wanted the discount, when they went to renew on the Tuesday, they asked for the ticket to start the day before (on the Bank Holiday Monday), then they would still be eligible.

That would become difficult and extremely awkward for ticket office staff though, especially since some refunds would be in their £100s, and some may even be £1000s. I guess for a refund over £250/£500, they wouldn't be allowed to issue cash and it would have to be refunded onto a debit/credit card or done by cheque.

 

[elycommuter]

Surely, it's easier to misplace 11 (or 52) tickets than it is to misplace 1 ticket that would be in your wallet?I think I'd be more likely to misplace 11 (or 52) tickets than I would 1 ticket, for the reason I've mentioned, one would stay in my wallet, whereas having 11 (or 52) would mean having to store them somewhere safe.

How would I lose them if they're in my desk at home? I wasn't planning to scatter them randomly all over my house. The only way I could permanently lose them would be burglary or fire, and the ToCs have more generous terms for replacing tickets in those circumstances (i.e. up to two per year). Maybe I live in a safe area, but I think my desk is a much safer place than my pocket, because my desk never goes out anywhere.

Anyhow, if other people don't like the idea of looking after 52 tickets, because their homes are at higher risk of burglary than mine, they could still have the option of buying one extremely valuable ticket under current system.
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A way they could do it, is for people to have to buy their pass monthly at the monthly cost, and then at the end of the year, they would be refunded for the extra they may have paid. The person who holds the ticket must have their ticket valid for the whole year though and not miss any days. For example, their monthly pass expires on a Sunday, but it's a Bank Holiday Monday and so they don't need to go out. They may miss that day, that would make them ineligible for a refund at the end of the year. However, had they wanted the discount, when they went to renew on the Tuesday, they asked for the ticket to start the day before (on the Bank Holiday Monday), then they would still be eligible.

That would become difficult and extremely awkward for ticket office staff though, especially since some refunds would be in their £100s, and some may even be £1000s. I guess for a refund over £250/£500, they wouldn't be allowed to issue cash and it would have to be refunded onto a debit/credit card or done by cheque.

This wouldn't work for the Network Gold Card (and Partner Card) benefits of annual seasons in the southeast, because the ToCs wouldn't know in advance whether you were going to buy a whole year's travel. Also the ToCs would lose revenue from interest, because they would receive the fares at a later date; presumably this is part of the reason why annual tickets are discounted. I have no objection to paying an up-front sum for an annual season - I just don't want it issued on a single piece of card. Personally I'd be happy to receive all 12 monthlies (or 52 weekies) in one batch, and look after them at home, which I think (for me) is a lot safer than carrying them everywhere I go. However, there's no reason why the 12 or 52 coupons couldn't be collected from ticket offices or machines at the start of their validity, which would be even safer. Very much like a bank account for storing and withdrawing money, in fact, which was a concept invented 4,000 years ago in ancient Babylonia, but unfortunately hasn't reached the UK railways yet.

 

[Flamingo]

From an accountancy point of view, the TOC would need to create new ticket types at the lower rate which would need to be suppressed in most Ticket Issuing Systems so they weren't issued in error.

If they issued them by doing a fare override they'd get a fares mismatch loss for each ticket, and there isn't a whole percentage discount that could be applied to produce the "correct" price.

Fair enough, but I'm sure that could be overcome.

 

[elycommuter]

From an accountancy point of view, the TOC would need to create new ticket types at the lower rate which would need to be suppressed in most Ticket Issuing Systems so they weren't issued in error.

If they issued them by doing a fare override they'd get a fares mismatch loss for each ticket, and there isn't a whole percentage discount that could be applied to produce the "correct" price.

Groupsave seems to work - I'm not aware of any problems with staff or machines issuing Groupsave tickets in the wrong quantity. Alternatively, if all 12 (or 52) coupons of an annual ticket were issued in the same transaction, I imagine the individual tickets would be officially priced at £0.00, just like replacement seasons or seat reservations. This in itself would be a safeguard against human error, since staff will be aware that any ticket priced at £0.00 is subject to special conditions.

 

[Deerfold]

It's all a question of balance. Lost tickets can be replaced twice in a twelve month period, which allows passengers an element of free insurance whilst limiting the railway to the exposure of fraud.

Has that changed recently?

I've commuted by rail for 20 years. In that time I've lost my season ticket twice - the two occasions were within about a month of each other. FCC refused to reissue my ticket the second time which worked out very expensive for me.

That was over 6 years ago and I've not lost one again since.

 

[barrykas]

Groupsave seems to work - I'm not aware of any problems with staff or machines issuing Groupsave tickets in the wrong quantity. Alternatively, if all 12 (or 52) coupons of an annual ticket were issued in the same transaction, I imagine the individual tickets would be officially priced at £0.00, just like replacement seasons or seat reservations. This in itself would be a safeguard against human error, since staff will be aware that any ticket priced at £0.00 is subject to special conditions.

In most cases, Groupsave is treated as a discount just like a Railcard, so wouldn't get "flagged" as a mismatch. And in the cases where it's done as a separate ticket type (EMT), it's priced appropriately as well.

And I didn't think of the zero fare option to be honest...Could be done in a similar way to some TOC's carnets, with one ticket at full price and the others at zero fare, thus obviating accountancy issues.

 

[ModernRailways]

How would I lose them if they're in my desk at home? I wasn't planning to scatter them randomly all over my house. The only way I could permanently lose them would be burglary or fire, and the ToCs have more generous terms for replacing tickets in those circumstances (i.e. up to two per year). Maybe I live in a safe area, but I think my desk is a much safer place than my pocket, because my desk never goes out anywhere.

Anyhow, if other people don't like the idea of looking after 52 tickets, because their homes are at higher risk of burglary than mine, they could still have the option of buying one extremely valuable ticket under current system.

My point was that you can easily put them in a drawer, but then when you go to look for them you forget you put them in that drawer or you've put something else in that drawer and when you've taken that out you've grabbed a ticket too. Yes there extreme but if you've managed to lose 1 ticket in the course of a year then it's much easier to lose 12.

At least with 1 ticket it's safer, as long as you look after it properly. If you think you're going to lose it every few months then why wouldn't you lose the other 11 tickets you would have - that includes whilst travelling?

Having 1 ticket then doing a check when you get on the train/before you get off to make sure you have it and then checking again would ensure it didn't happen or at least you can narrow down where it did happen.

When I buy a Travelcard for London, I always put it through the barriers to let me on, then put it in my pocket, I then board the train, put my hand in my pocket and check my phone (I'm actually checking my ticket is in there, and sometimes moving the ticket to the front so I can check later on), then upon leaving the train, I put my hand on my pocket and feel the outline of the ticket. Much easier and takes a matter of seconds. Obviously I don't do it everytime I get on a train, if I am 'bashing', but if I am making an end to end trip then I will check, especially when changing at a busy station.

 

[island]

Has that changed recently?

I've commuted by rail for 20 years. In that time I've lost my season ticket twice - the two occasions were within about a month of each other. FCC refused to reissue my ticket the second time which worked out very expensive for me.

That was over 6 years ago and I've not lost one again since.

A second replacement is subject to the production of a police report of theft etc., IIRC.

 

[elycommuter]

My point was that you can easily put them in a drawer, but then when you go to look for them you forget you put them in that drawer or you've put something else in that drawer and when you've taken that out you've grabbed a ticket too.

Maybe you, but not me. I know my habits, and I know that I never forgot the location where I store my passport, birth certificate, driving licence counterpart, and other things like that... partly because I know they're important, and partly because I very rarely move them. I don't "accidently grab" my birth certificate when I'm taking out some socks. Again, maybe you do that, but we're all different. If you think that's a risk, you could choose to have your season ticket issued under the existing system, and I could have mine in 52 parts, according to our different ways and preferences. Even if I did forget where I put them (unlikely, since I already know exactly where it would be), I would still know that they were in the house somewhere unless I was burgled, so they wouldn't be irretrievably lost.

Yes there extreme but if you've managed to lose 1 ticket in the course of a year then it's much easier to lose 12.

Not sure what you mean by that. If I never lose them permanently from my desk at home, and I always have exactly one season ticket (or part thereof) in my pocket while travelling, the average number losses per year from my pocket should be unchanged, if all other factors are equal. The difference is that the average value of tickets lost per year will be much smaller.

 

[ModernRailways]

Maybe you, but not me. I know my habits, and I know that I never forgot the location where I store my passport, birth certificate, driving licence counterpart, and other things like that... partly because I know they're important, and partly because I very rarely move them. I don't "accidently grab" my birth certificate when I'm taking out some socks. Again, maybe you do that, but we're all different. If you think that's a risk, you could choose to have your season ticket issued under the existing system, and I could have mine in 52 parts, according to our different ways and preferences. Even if I did forget where I put them (unlikely, since I already know exactly where it would be), I would still know that they were in the house somewhere unless I was burgled, so they wouldn't be irretrievably lost.

My point was that it would be quite easy to pick it up, maybe thinking it's out of date or something and just throwing it away. You could also just misplace them. The tickets are small and aren't easy to find. You also need to be able to get them easily.

I don't have a passport, and so I've never had to 'store' it somewhere, but if I did I would probably keep it in the living room where I can see it daily. Like I said, I keep important things on my desk, so every time I'm at my desk I can see them, if they aren't there I can then go looking for it, my bank cards/money stay in my wallet or in my PinSentry and that is also kept on my desk. My 16-25 railcard hasn't went walkabout's yet, and I still have the original form from 2 years ago so that if I do misplace it I can get another for £5 - maybe something similar should be introduced to season tickets?

Not sure what you mean by that. If I never lose them permanently from my desk at home, and I always have exactly one season ticket (or part thereof) in my pocket while travelling, the average number losses per year from my pocket should be unchanged, if all other factors are equal. The difference is that the average value of tickets lost per year will be much smaller.

You would have 12 tickets though to carry over the course of the year, if you lose two tickets within only 6 months, then to me that means you don't look after it enough and that you could then lose 4 or more tickets if you had 12. It would be much easier to lose 12 than it would be to lose 1 ticket that you looked after.

You could also forget to change the ticket and get the new one at the start of a new month, which would mean you would be Penalty Fare'd or liable to prosecution.

The only way to prevent this is for people to take more care of their tickets, if you had to carry your passport (or another form of ID everyday like in Belgium etc.) would you start losing that? You just need to take extra care with it to make sure you don't lose it.

One way of helping though would be to issue on smartcards where the season ticket is given unique information so if lost the card can be stopped and the season ticket moved to a new smartcard at a cost of £5 first time, then £10/£20 for every time after.

 

[elycommuter]

My point was that it would be quite easy to pick it up, maybe thinking it's out of date or something and just throwing it away. You could also just misplace them. The tickets are small and aren't easy to find. You also need to be able to get them easily.

Well, this is all very subjective. I know for an absolute fact (and I don't need to justify it to anybody) that items stored in my home are less likely to go walkabout than things which I carry in my pocket, especially things that have to be taken out of my pocket several times a day. Insurance companies seem to concur with this - it's normally more expensive to insure things that you take outside your home, as far as I'm aware. Again, other people may have different habits, but I know mine fairly well, and I try to minimise the impact of habits that I know are bad. You may have difficulty finding your belongings at home, but I don't. You may have no difficulty looking after things that you carry on your person, but I do.

My 16-25 railcard hasn't went walkabout's yet,

I never lost my Young Persons railcard either, during the ten years that I had one. However, I probably made fewer journeys in those ten years than I've made in the past two years with my season ticket, as I was not commuting every day; also I was usually travelling in less stressful conditions on less crowded trains outside the morning peak.

You would have 12 tickets though to carry over the course of the year, if you lose two tickets within only 6 months,

12 different tickets, yes, but the fact that I swap tickets each month does not increase the probability of losing the one I'm carrying. If you roll one dice 12 times, that's the same as rolling 12 different dice, in terms of the average number of sixes?? But the cost of each lost ticket is much smaller if the tickets are only worth hundreds rather than thousands of pounds.

then to me that means you don't look after it enough and that you could then lose 4 or more tickets if you had 12. It would be much easier to lose 12 than it would be to lose 1 ticket that you looked after.

That's like a counsellor telling a gambling addict that he should "just stop gambling". The whole point of this thread is to find constructive solutions to avoid the risks of a bad habit. Yes, I could probably look after it better, but there will always be one day in the year when I'm feeling stressed and distracted by something else, and that's probably when I will lose my ticket. I know I'm not perfect, and I don't need other people reminding me of that fact. Lots of people have said helpful things about bright coloured wallets, keychains and so forth - the point is that everybody makes mistakes, and we (or I at least) need as many safeguards as possible.

Being slightly controversial, I could claim that "propensity to lose season tickets" is a symptom of a mental disability (commonly known as "being an occasional scatterbrain"), so anti-discrimination laws should prevent the ToCs from charging me more for my actual journeys than they charge other passengers who don't lose their tickets.

You could also forget to change the ticket and get the new one at the start of a new month, which would mean you would be Penalty Fare'd or liable to prosecution.

I wouldn't be prosecuted if I can prove that I have paid the fare, and can subsequently produce the ticket. If they were silly enough to try prosecuting someone who can produce a valid ticket bearing my photocard number in court, I don't think any judge or jury would find me guilty. Penalty fares also are not issued to season ticket holders, according to FCC at least:

What if I discover that I have forgotten my Season Ticket and / or photocard once I have boarded the train?

If you board a train without a valid ticket and are approached by one of our Revenue Protection Inspectors you will be asked to provide your personal details i.e. name, address etc - which will be verified with a quick telephone call.

You will then be asked to either pay the standard single fare for your journey (which will be refunded on production of your valid season ticket), if you have no money then it will be a 'nil paid' penalty fare.

[Actually it just occurred to me that the above rule is a security flaw. If you know the name and address of another person (same gender) with a valid season ticket for your route, and the inspector doesn't require photo id, it would be rather easy (but highly illegal) to evade penalty fares.]

 

[jb]

Being slightly controversial, I could claim that "propensity to lose season tickets" is a symptom of a mental disability (commonly known as "being an occasional scatterbrain"), so anti-discrimination laws should prevent the ToCs from charging me more for my actual journeys than they charge other passengers who don't lose their tickets

I would look for a different adjective as the third word if I were you.

 

[Tibbs]

[Actually it just occurred to me that the above rule is a security flaw. If you know the name and address of another person (same gender) with a valid season ticket for your route, and the inspector doesn't require photo id, it would be rather easy (but highly illegal) to evade penalty fares.]

Done to death on here, but an RPI can't require a photo ID. Nothing to stop them asking of course, and nothing to stop the passenger from saying no.

 

[ModernRailways]

Done to death on here, but an RPI can't require a photo ID. Nothing to stop them asking of course, and nothing to stop the passenger from saying no.

But you could always do a photocard season ticket (like the railcard). Therefore you have to have a picture linked to your season ticket, that way when the RPI phones to check the details they can also get a rough idea of what the person should look like. For example, a 26 year old man has a season ticket, but a 47 year old man is trying to claim it's his so he gets out of paying the fare, however the 26 year old has a photocard season ticket and so when the RPI phone's to check the descriptions they don't match 100% which means the RPI would investigate further, possibly giving the 47 year old an Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN) which he would be allowed to contest did he have a proper season ticket. If the 26 year old didn't match the description either then he would contest the UFN and would succeed.

 

[455driver]

You may have no difficulty looking after things that you carry on your person, but I do.

Surely that is your problem then and not the railways!

Keep your season in your wallet, seems sensible to me!

 

[Tibbs]

But you could always do a photocard season ticket (like the railcard). Therefore you have to have a picture linked to your season ticket, that way when the RPI phones to check the details they can also get a rough idea of what the person should look like. For example, a 26 year old man has a season ticket, but a 47 year old man is trying to claim it's his so he gets out of paying the fare, however the 26 year old has a photocard season ticket and so when the RPI phone's to check the descriptions they don't match 100% which means the RPI would investigate further, possibly giving the 47 year old an Unpaid Fares Notice (UFN) which he would be allowed to contest did he have a proper season ticket. If the 26 year old didn't match the description either then he would contest the UFN and would succeed.

You have a photocard with your annual season ticket, or at least I do. The RPI has a right to see that and indeed should request to see it as AFAIK your season ticket isn't valid without the photocard. What they don't have a right to see is a driving licence for example, which combines photo, name and address.

 

[jon0844]

There are some very good ideas on here to offer some additional protection for season ticket holders, until such time that smartcards make it a non-existent problem.

Some TOCs will let you pay by direct debit over a year, and get 12 x monthly tickets (with the last one being free). That's not quite as good as a Gold Card (which is two months free) but could be seen as perfect for anyone that is concerned.

The downside, besides paying for one more month, is that you don't get the Gold Card benefits - simply because you can stop at any time. The TOC has no risk because it only gives the free ticket if you've paid for 11 tickets.

What could happen is that a TOC can give those tickets on Gold Card stock IF you pay the whole year up front. I'd even argue they could do the two months free, or something inbetween. By all means make it so these tickets can only be issued at certain stations, or online, but it seems like a sensible solution.

TOCs could then issue these tickets in one go, or supply them each month (no reason to do that though, and it would mean more admin costs).

The customer would have to remember to change tickets (the TOC might be able to email them though?) and be treated as having no ticket if they don't carry it - byelaw 18 - or go through the current process of paying for a new ticket/PF and then claiming back when presenting the valid ticket later.

I never lost a season ticket in eight-odd years, but it's always something to be concerned about, or certainly if you do lose it and make your one and only claim. Knowing that next time you could be losing something worth thousands might 'focus the mind' but it doesn't suddenly mean you can't lose it!

 

[maniacmartin]

Apparently it used to be the case that the gatelines were not able to check the start date of a season ticket, which would but a spanner in the works of your plan. Whether this is still the case, I don't know.

 

[jon0844]

Ah yes, that would probably mean having no choice but to send out tickets each month then!

I remember when I renewed my season around Christmas, to start when my old one expired (I am not sure the crossover period - perhaps a week?) and the new season actually worked there and then.

I can't see why a TOC couldn't offer this to people, at a cost. In effect, doing what some already do but giving them on Gold Card stock to anyone that prepays for the year. Or, perhaps offering this to anyone who has made their first and only claim - as a sort of insurance policy - again with a charge that makes sure the TOC isn't out of pocket.

Or just introduce smartcards ASAP!

 

[Haywain]

Apparently it used to be the case that the gatelines were not able to check the start date of a season ticket, which would but a spanner in the works of your plan. Whether this is still the case, I don't know.

Gatelines can probably check the start date, the trouble is that the tickets don't have it encoded on the magnetic strip. And can't have, because there isn't room.

 

[westv]

Talk of Gold Cards reminds me when they first came out for annual season ticket holders and offered 50% off of travel in the SE region and 1/3 of travel UK wide - those were the days!

 

[bb21]

Being slightly controversial, I could claim that "propensity to lose season tickets" is a symptom of a mental disability (commonly known as "being an occasional scatterbrain"), so anti-discrimination laws should prevent the ToCs from charging me more for my actual journeys than they charge other passengers who don't lose their tickets.

I'd like to see this one tested in court.

I wouldn't be prosecuted if I can prove that I have paid the fare, and can subsequently produce the ticket

Byelaw 18.

You do have a choice, but seemingly you want the railway companies to bend over backwards so you can enjoy all the financial benefits without any of the responsibilities.

 

[elycommuter]

You do have a choice, but seemingly you want the railway companies to bend over backwards so you can enjoy all the financial benefits without any of the responsibilities.

Yes, I do.

Put another way, I think it is ethically questionable that railway companies (as franchise holders in a market without practical competition) should reap the benefit of passengers paying twice for their journeys, when this double payment would not exist in a better ticketing system. Train companies using Oyster in London presumably receive less revenue from passengers re-buying lost season tickets (though they may gain some due to a reduction of fraud) - it's an example where the transport provider has invested money, but the passengers are the winners, because Oyster cards are always replaceable. Private transport companies will not "bend over backwards" to provide benefit to their customers when there is no financial incentive to do so; but I do expect the government to do exactly that. This includes the government's responsibility to regulate the railways, forcing train companies to invest money in the interests of passengers. Exactly as they seem to have done in London.

[Edit: I know Oyster was not funded by "train companies" per se... but the point is that the government made sure that somebody paid for it, regardless of any change in ticket revenue.]

 

[island]

The train companies do gain from Oyster though; aside from the fact that they don't ever run the risk of a duplicate season ticket being used alongside the original, presumably they get the chance to crunch the data generated from it?