Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[DunsBus]

No Doors Open Day at Central this September, as the Cockburn Association have announced this year's Doors Open Weekend will not be going ahead.

"Popular Edinburgh Doors Open Day postponed for 2022 over 'financial concerns' - Edinburgh Live" https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/best-in-edinburgh/popular-edinburgh-doors-open-day-23516890.amp

I actually am not a keen fan of them and much prefer the recent deliveries not having them.

The city crests were a Hall idea. He's long gone, now it's time for them to go.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

No Doors Open Day at Central this September, as the Cockburn Association have announced this year's Doors Open Weekend will not be going ahead.

"Popular Edinburgh Doors Open Day postponed for 2022 over 'financial concerns' - Edinburgh Live" https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/best-in-edinburgh/popular-edinburgh-doors-open-day-23516890.amp


The city crests were a Hall idea. He's long gone, now it's time for them to go.

Whilst it is unlikely to happen, I don’t think it can be confirmed at this stage that the Lothian one is definitely off. They’ve held events at the ECB depots out of these dates so it could still happen, but it is admittedly unlikely.

 

[Graham Alexand]

I stay in Kirkliston and still say they don’t deserve to have it back. They had their chance and refused to use it!

I think another factor was (at the time) First Buses 38, which turned into the X38 in January 2020 with no other change bar the "X" in it's service name, ran all the way to Stirling via Falkirk whereas the Lothian Country X38 just terminated in Linlithgow Bridge with the only route difference that it serviced Linlithgow Bridge so it essentially was the same route as First Midland Bluebirds X38.

I personally don't think there is any way for Linlithgow to receive a Lothian Country bus due to the amount of competition there with not only First but Prentice of Westwood and SD Travel too.

However, although Kirkliston neglected the service, there is potential there, why not (like previously suggested) extend the 275 or 276 there and make either of them go to Queensferry, I understand this sounds silly but hear me out:

Reasons for why the bus should go to Queensferry:
Assuming the bus would operate hourly, so every second bus terminating in Broxburn and the rest at Queensferry, having the 27⅚ operate to Scotstoun terminus then turn into the 43 to Edinburgh to save on dead runs from Livingston to Queensferry and will provide a daily link to Queensferry that the 7 only operates partially daily. Both the 275 and 276 go to Uphall Station providing links from Dalmeny Railway Station to Uphall Railway Station (assuming the 43 would allow through travel) for additional connections around Scotland.

Reasons for the 275 specifically:
Having a 275 operating to Queensferry allows for residents of Queensferry, Kirkliston and Winchburgh to all have a direct daily link to St John's Hospital (I understand that First West Lothian's service 600 currently operates to St John's but this is a temporary measure until the 27 returns which was suspended due to the driver shortage epidemic).

Reasons for the 276 specifically:
The 276 would have a much quicker run time to Livingston the Centre than the 275 and almost would reintroduced a hefty portion of the old 22A route that used to operate, albeit with small passenger numbers.

All of that is for the suggestion that Kirkliston could theoretically have a service that works.

 

[stevenedin]

Sounds like a good idea. You should send it to Lothian as a suggestion. You never know they may use it or part of it

 

[Siemens Trains]

Sounds like a good idea. You should send it to Lothian as a suggestion. You never know they may use it or part of it

Tell them you'll take a cut of the profits. Or losses....
The old 22A passenger numbers north of Kirkliston were close to zero. Placing journeys are only needed in the morning/evening and usually more frequent than this service would warrant. When travelling between Uphall Station and Dalmeny Station I always found the train better than bus via Broxburn & Kirkliston.

 

[Humberscot]

I stay in Kirkliston and still say they don’t deserve to have it back. They had their chance and refused to use it!

I still maintain Winchburgh is a key location for Lothian Country. There are hundreds of houses being added every year and there is a significant market for journeys into Edinburgh and the approaches to Edinburgh - particularly with no sign of the train station being built in Winchburgh anytime soon. The First service isn't great and as per elsewhere in West Lothian, LC could give them a real run for their money - maybe not instantly but over time as we've seen on other routes, when passengers get used to the reliability and comfort of the service.

 

[overthewater]

I still maintain Winchburgh is a key location for Lothian Country. There are hundreds of houses being added every year and there is a significant market for journeys into Edinburgh and the approaches to Edinburgh - particularly with no sign of the train station being built in Winchburgh anytime soon. The First service isn't great and as per elsewhere in West Lothian, LC could give them a real run for their money - maybe not instantly but over time as we've seen on other routes, when passengers get used to the reliability and comfort of the service.

There is some truth in the fact Winchburgh is a key location, but the simple fact is they went in far to late and when they did, the tickets (of course LCB now has a weekly ticket which they badly need to start advertising) which they offered didn't help them at the time, nothing else makes sense: Why would you stick with - as many people have said, a worse service? Of course they had 4 months to try and then covid happened but its rather telling they don't want to stick it out.

The next transport bit to be built in the town will be the new off ramps to the M9, which is due to open at the end of this year.

I think another factor was (at the time) First Buses 38, which turned into the X38 in January 2020 with no other change bar the "X" in it's service name, ran all the way to Stirling via Falkirk whereas the Lothian Country X38 just terminated in Linlithgow Bridge with the only route difference that it serviced Linlithgow Bridge so it essentially was the same route as First Midland Bluebirds X38.

I personally don't think there is any way for Linlithgow to receive a Lothian Country bus due to the amount of competition there with not only First but Prentice of Westwood and SD Travel too.

Other parts of West Lothian have plenty of Competition what does that matter?

Reasons for why the bus should go to Queensferry:
Assuming the bus would operate hourly, so every second bus terminating in Broxburn and the rest at Queensferry, having the 27⅚ operate to Scotstoun terminus then turn into the 43 to Edinburgh to save on dead runs from Livingston to Queensferry and will provide a daily link to Queensferry that the 7 only operates partially daily. Both the 275 and 276 go to Uphall Station providing links from Dalmeny Railway Station to Uphall Railway Station (assuming the 43 would allow through travel) for additional connections around Scotland.

Reasons for the 275 specifically:
Having a 275 operating to Queensferry allows for residents of Queensferry, Kirkliston and Winchburgh to all have a direct daily link to St John's Hospital (I understand that First West Lothian's service 600 currently operates to St John's but this is a temporary measure until the 27 returns which was suspended due to the driver shortage epidemic).

Reasons for the 276 specifically:
The 276 would have a much quicker run time to Livingston the Centre than the 275 and almost would reintroduced a hefty portion of the old 22A route that used to operate, albeit with small passenger numbers.

All of that is for the suggestion that Kirkliston could theoretically have a service that works.

People don't want to spend hours on buses, they want fast direct routes. Its why Stagecoach X51 is getting more and more passengers from Queensferry and Kirkliston, because its fast and direct. If Lothian were to have faster service then that might be different kettle of fish.

600 is a good illusion, because they think its faster as it goes down fast link then into the Hospital. Before Covid it was the faster service for Broxburn.

 

[Darklord8899]

Couldn't you take anything to Waverley then X22/X23/X27/X28?

Well not to Waverley, with North Bridge being shut.... I can get 25/34/LCBX27/X28.... but still need to get to foot of Mound then get to the right bus stop on Princess St. for any of those services and really how much time would I actually save, whilst having a ridacard, still changing buses in the city centre rather than using one bus.

 

[permarquis]

Out of interest, is Lothian's eventual goal to integrate LCB and ECB? The liveries seem to be drifting ever closer to each other, and now that they don't have standalone websites it seems a little redundant to maintain them separately. I've always thought it would be a lot cleaner to divide all services between Lothian City (self-explanatory) and Lothian Country (the wider Lothians). Is there any barrier against doing so?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Out of interest, is Lothian's eventual goal to integrate LCB and ECB? The liveries seem to be drifting ever closer to each other, and now that they don't have standalone websites it seems a little redundant to maintain them separately. I've always thought it would be a lot cleaner to divide all services between Lothian City (self-explanatory) and Lothian Country (the wider Lothians). Is there any barrier against doing so?

To be honest they should, when East Coast Buses was introduced i was confused as to why such a different name with no relation to Lothian whatsoever, especially when you can intergrate tickets/passes on the Lothian City buses also.

and now that Lothian Country has been well established in the West and that the fleet are now having similar liveries, I would just go ahead and rename it Lothian Country East and Lothian Country West, if it’s as easy as that.

 

[scotrail158713]

Very much going full circle then - the 104 & 113 were Lothian Country services before being merged with East Coast a few months after their services launched

 

[stevenedin]

East Lothian buses
Lothian Country Buses
EastCoastbuses
Lothiancountry

If it happens.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Very much going full circle then - the 104 & 113 were Lothian Country services before being merged with East Coast a few months after their services launched

It was a bit more than a few months but wasn’t too long.

The 113 started in June 2012. I think the original Lothian Country Buses rebrand came about as part of the introduction of TfE in around June 2014, with the 104 launching shortly after in that September. East Coast Buses launched in August 2016 and shortly after (possibly at the same time) Lothian Country Buses was legally merged into East Coast Buses, the buses now operating with ECB drivers from Musselburgh and the brand remaining in use until April 2017 at which point the brand was changed in the public eye to East Coast Buses. The brand remained unused for around 2 months until Lothian Country launched in June 2017 and announced the 43/X43. West Lothian expansion started in August 2018 and then that awful new logo came in ‘Lothiancountry’ - for reason Hall and co. didn’t like the word ‘Buses’ when it comes to most of the new brand identities and I’m not sure why?

There was a legal reason why the two couldn’t merge in the public eye straight away, and I believe it was something to do with the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA).

 

[Bus9120UK]

West Lothian expansion started in August 2018 and then that awful new logo came in ‘Lothiancountry’ - for reason Hall and co. didn’t like the word ‘Buses’ when it comes to most of the new brand identities and I’m not sure why?

There was a legal reason why the two couldn’t merge in the public eye straight away, and I believe it was something to do with the Competition and Markets Authority (CMA).

Personally I do prefer the current Lothiancountry logo due to the consistent text size although would prefer if it still had the roundal. The lack of "buses" also looks rather clean and smart in my opinion.

 

[permarquis]

Lothian's branding hasn't been especially coherent for a while now, which is a real shame given the strength of the name. The fonts, colours, and stylings for their various sub-brands (not to mention the website) are a mess of inconsistencies. They could do with a proper corporate identity strategy with well defined guidelines.

I like this version (although the colours need to be adjusted) of the LCB logo: it keeps the roundel and the Lothian name front and centre, while emphasising that it's a "country" sub-brand, which is a paradigm that can then be used elsewhere for consistency. If you want to keep East and West Lothian separate, have three brands using this style: Lothian City, Lothian West, and Lothian East, and format them consistently.

This does away with the status quo where you have three separate brands which don't integrate or cohere properly, and awkwardly styled brand names like "EastCoastbuses" which look very dated.

If Transport for Edinburgh want to build a coherent mass transit network, you have to get this sort of stuff right. It should be immediately obvious that all the buses and trams come under the same umbrella and work in the same way.

Anyway. I can dream!

 

[frvic93]

Does anyone know if Lothian are extending the 33 any further? I know it's been extended to Millerhill, which is good because it was lacking in bus services before, in spite of all the new houses. The Burgh Gate development in Musselburgh is lacking a decent service - could they terminate the 33 there instead?

 

[CN04NRJ]

To be honest they should, when East Coast Buses was introduced i was confused as to why such a different name with no relation to Lothian whatsoever, especially when you can intergrate tickets/passes on the Lothian City buses also.

and now that Lothian Country has been well established in the West and that the fleet are now having similar liveries, I would just go ahead and rename it Lothian Country East and Lothian Country West, if it’s as easy as that.

Unlikely due to difference in pay/conditions across the three separate operators - as well as LMC and EBT.

 

[Porty]

East Lothian buses
Lothian Country Buses
EastCoastbuses
Lothiancountry

If it happens.

...or Lothian Coastal.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Does anyone know if Lothian are extending the 33 any further? I know it's been extended to Millerhill, which is good because it was lacking in bus services before, in spite of all the new houses. The Burgh Gate development in Musselburgh is lacking a decent service - could they terminate the 33 there instead?

It likely would need to be terminated south of the railway bridge a number of Lothian’s Double Deckers cannot fit underneath the bridge that carries the ECML, some can just can’t remember which ones do. I remember looking at this previously and found out that one of the better buses to fit would be low height Gemini 3’s and it would still be tight.

I can’t see why Lothian would want to terminate any bus route there and it would make sense for any bus to go this way to then continue onto Musselburgh. The consequence there is that this then arguably overlaps the Prentice 111 too much. Perhaps it’s better being served with a couple of Express journeys via the A1? A bit like the western half of Windygoul and Port Seton. Would probably need to be single deckers but could serve other areas beforehand too.

I think it’s more likely we’ll see an extension to the 44 and/or others to serve the new housing estate in Wallyford first. There’s even bus shelters already up.

 

[Edirim]

It likely would need to be terminated south of the railway bridge a number of Lothian’s Double Deckers cannot fit underneath the bridge that carries the ECML, some can just can’t remember which ones do. I remember looking at this previously and found out that one of the better buses to fit would be low height Gemini 3’s and it would still be tight.

I can’t see why Lothian would want to terminate any bus route there and it would make sense for any bus to go this way to then continue onto Musselburgh. The consequence there is that this then arguably overlaps the Prentice 111 too much. Perhaps it’s better being served with a couple of Express journeys via the A1? A bit like the western half of Windygoul and Port Seton. Would probably need to be single deckers but could serve other areas beforehand too.

I think it’s more likely we’ll see an extension to the 44 and/or others to serve the new housing estate in Wallyford first. There’s even bus shelters already up.

Wallyford new stuff probably be served by the 104 rather than the 44 I'd imagine

 

[cammyeaston]

It likely would need to be terminated south of the railway bridge a number of Lothian’s Double Deckers cannot fit underneath the bridge that carries the ECML, some can just can’t remember which ones do. I remember looking at this previously and found out that one of the better buses to fit would be low height Gemini 3’s and it would still be tight.

I can’t see why Lothian would want to terminate any bus route there and it would make sense for any bus to go this way to then continue onto Musselburgh. The consequence there is that this then arguably overlaps the Prentice 111 too much. Perhaps it’s better being served with a couple of Express journeys via the A1? A bit like the western half of Windygoul and Port Seton. Would probably need to be single deckers but could serve other areas beforehand too.

I think it’s more likely we’ll see an extension to the 44 and/or others to serve the new housing estate in Wallyford first. There’s even bus shelters already up.

There's been bus shelters here for 3 or 4 years now. The road is finally open throughout but I wouldn't be surprised if Lothian didn't fancy operating over this road until ELC shave the speedbumps - they're horrendous and bad enough to drive over in a car, forget a bus.

 

[frvic93]

It likely would need to be terminated south of the railway bridge a number of Lothian’s Double Deckers cannot fit underneath the bridge that carries the ECML, some can just can’t remember which ones do. I remember looking at this previously and found out that one of the better buses to fit would be low height Gemini 3’s and it would still be tight.

I can’t see why Lothian would want to terminate any bus route there and it would make sense for any bus to go this way to then continue onto Musselburgh. The consequence there is that this then arguably overlaps the Prentice 111 too much. Perhaps it’s better being served with a couple of Express journeys via the A1? A bit like the western half of Windygoul and Port Seton. Would probably need to be single deckers but could serve other areas beforehand too.

I think it’s more likely we’ll see an extension to the 44 and/or others to serve the new housing estate in Wallyford first. There’s even bus shelters already up.

Quite possibly - it just seems strange that that development doesn't have any direct links to Edinburgh city centre, and I figured it wouldn't be that much of an extension to have the 33 terminate at Craighall Drive (south of that railway bridge). They could certainly divert one of the express buses through Old Craighall and back onto the A1, though.

 

[VioletEclipse]

Does the 104 still operate the evening workings to Amisfield Park in Haddington?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

In the few hours since I’ve looked at extensions I’d say it actually seems more likely West Craigs will get a bus first. I’m not sure how Lothian will be able to do this with existing routes though, the 31 is already quite long so a new route may be easier.

Does the 104 still operate the evening workings to Amisfield Park in Haddington?

It does, yes. Although I’m not sure how well used it is. I’ve only ever done it twice.

 

[90019]

In the few hours since I’ve looked at extensions I’d say it actually seems more likely West Craigs will get a bus first. I’m not sure how Lothian will be able to do this with existing routes though, the 31 is already quite long so a new route may be easier.

I'm wondering if there'll be a new route heading out along Queensferry Road, through the development at Cammo Meadows then round into West Craigs.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I'm wondering if there'll be a new route heading out along Queensferry Road, through the development at Cammo Meadows then round into West Craigs.

That could work well, if this new route and the 41 & the 43 offered a consistent pattern it could work well. If traffic was less of an issue it could eventually extend to the Gyle via Turnhouse when the houses there are at a decent stage.

 

[ScotRail158725]

It likely would need to be terminated south of the railway bridge a number of Lothian’s Double Deckers cannot fit underneath the bridge that carries the ECML, some can just can’t remember which ones do. I remember looking at this previously and found out that one of the better buses to fit would be low height Gemini 3’s and it would still be tight.

I can’t see why Lothian would want to terminate any bus route there and it would make sense for any bus to go this way to then continue onto Musselburgh. The consequence there is that this then arguably overlaps the Prentice 111 too much. Perhaps it’s better being served with a couple of Express journeys via the A1? A bit like the western half of Windygoul and Port Seton. Would probably need to be single deckers but could serve other areas beforehand too.

I think it’s more likely we’ll see an extension to the 44 and/or others to serve the new housing estate in Wallyford first. There’s even bus shelters already up.

The bridge is 14”6. The tallest vehicles in the Lothian fleet are 14”5

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The bridge is 14”6. The tallest vehicles in the Lothian fleet are 14”5

Which probably means it’s nearer 15ft. The heights are often off a bit to reduce bridge strikes.

I do wonder how often it’s actually used by Double Deckers then? Presumably all out of service.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I'm wondering if there'll be a new route heading out along Queensferry Road, through the development at Cammo Meadows then round into West Craigs.

If the 41 could justify a 15 minute frequency on the main route maybe it would run alternately to Cramond and Cammo Meadows. Maybe similar journey times. A developer contribution might keep that going for a couple of years.

That could work well, if this new route and the 41 & the 43 offered a consistent pattern it could work well. If traffic was less of an issue it could eventually extend to the Gyle via Turnhouse when the houses there are at a decent stage.

Yes, if including the 43 they could run all three every half hour and have 10 minute frequency at Blackhall.
Or more likely nothing for ages then all coming at once.

 

[alexf380]

It does, yes. Although I’m not sure how well used it is. I’ve only ever done it twice.

More often than not, the bus is empty. The first one at 05:00 picks up a couple of people but I've yet to drop someone off in the evening.