Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[LothianLover88]

If there is a new Airlink fleet due next year it raises the question on whats next for 1128-1140. I am doubtful that they'd be used for Skylink services so I'd expect conversion into normal city vehicles like 1126/7, however both took well over a month to complete raising questions on whether Lothian would outsource some of these to speed up the process.

I would say resources and time would be well spent adding an extra 12 buses to the city fleet. There are routes that would benefit greatly with the B8Ls, such as 3/25.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It's definitely going to be electric, whatever the replacements will be. Needs to be high capacity with good luggage capacity. Also up to the long running boards and short turnaround before going back out.

Its unlikely since it would require infrastructure upgrades but the 100 would be an ideal route to utilise opportunity charging for this reason.

 

[Graeme Duncan]

I noticed that service 45 was operating up and down Morningside Road . Has it been diverted.

 

[Resuwen]

Colinton Road was closed due to a fire

 

[Spsf3232]

Its unlikely since it would require infrastructure upgrades but the 100 would be an ideal route to utilise opportunity charging for this reason.

Perfect route for E500evs if they could get them certified for operation in the UK. It would go well if they could manage to get on street charging installed in the city or airport. Without that would need some creative duties to allow periods of recharging at central depot.

Current EVs don't have the capacity or luggage space as of yet.

 

[LothianLover88]

I noticed that service 45 was operating up and down Morningside Road . Has it been diverted.

It is diverted, you can find out the whole diversion on the LB Service Updates page.

Service Updates - Lothian Buses

Service Alerts – Last-minute road closures due to emergency works or following an incident can affect bus routes and service reliability. Our Service Alerts will keep you informed about any sudden changes to services as they occur. Planned Diversions – As soon as our teams are informed about...

www.lothianbuses.com

 

[Lx008]

Perfect route for E500evs if they could get them certified for operation in the UK. It would go well if they could manage to get on street charging installed in the city or airport. Without that would need some creative duties to allow periods of recharging at central depot.

Current EVs don't have the capacity or luggage space as of yet.

Would it be possible to get pantograph charging at the airport and wherever the city center terminus ends up being, saw this at quite a few places in Switzerland, even deep in the countryside.

I seem to remember that TfL was trialing the system on a E400ev so I’m sure it could be adapted to the E500ev.

As a Side Note, what is currently lacking for the E500ev to be approved for the UK?

 

[Baileygirl]

Would it be possible to get pantograph charging at the airport and wherever the city center terminus ends up being, saw this at quite a few places in Switzerland, even deep in the countryside.

I seem to remember that TfL was trialing the system on a E400ev so I’m sure it could be adapted to the E500ev.

As a Side Note, what is currently lacking for the E500ev to be approved for the UK?

They tried to get this type of charging for the second batch of Volvo 7900's, but they were refused planning permission. Can't see them getting permission to install pantographs in the centre of Edinburgh.

 

[A330Alex]

There are some interesting snippets in Lothain’s submission to CEC*’s City Mobility Plan (~p265).
* City of Edinburgh Council

It appears Lothian is planning to introduce electric vehicles to the 100 from 2025 with in-service charging points installed at the airport and South St Andrew Street.

View attachment 144323

Opportunity charging is already planned for 2025 to serve the 100 with further sites in the following years.

 

[stevenedin]

If the Airlink is moving back to South St David Street in the future, would this mean that Waverley Bridge will close again?

 

[LothianLover88]

Opportunity charging is already planned for 2025 to serve the 100 with further sites in the following years.

Would the South St David Street one be modified (place-wise) now that the 100 is terminating on Waverley Bridge?

 

[A330Alex]

If the Airlink is moving back to South St David Street in the future, would this mean that Waverley Bridge will close again?

Would the South St David Street one be modified (place-wise) now that the 100 is terminating on Waverley Bridge?

The relocation to Waverley Bridge is only temporary while building works take place on South St David Street. Once these are done, the 100 will move back (or, potentially, to another location).

The pedestrianisation of Waverley Bridge is part of the City Centre Transformation and other very lengthy strategy documents. Some extra info: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/city-mobility-plan-1/future-streets-delivering-city-mobility-plan

 

[stevenedin]

The relocation to Waverley Bridge is only temporary while building works take place on South St David Street. Once these are done, the 100 will move back (or, potentially, to another location).

The pedestrianisation of Waverley Bridge is part of the City Centre Transformation and other very lengthy strategy documents. Some extra info: https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/city-mobility-plan-1/future-streets-delivering-city-mobility-plan

Thanks for your response. It doesn’t make sense why Bright Bus AirPort Express moved as well if they will be moving back to Waterloo Place.

 

[Jordan1296]

Thanks for your response. It doesn’t make sense why Bright Bus AirPort Express moved as well if they will be moving back to Waterloo Place.

Competition is why!

 

[iij]

Has Lothian Region Transport/Lothian Buses ever served Pathhead?

 

[DunsBus]

Has Lothian Region Transport/Lothian Buses ever served Pathhead?

No. There wouldn't be the demand there, plus nowhere to turn a bus.

 

[JKP]

No. There wouldn't be the demand there, plus nowhere to turn a bus.

Eastern Scottish used the northbound lay-by on the A68 around half a mile south of Pathhead to turn buses on their 512? 40 years plus ago.

 

[DunsBus]

Eastern Scottish used the northbound lay-by on the A68 around half a mile south of Pathhead to turn buses on their 512? 40 years plus ago.

I know the one you mean. It was service 514 which turned there.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Lothian really need to focus on getting the quality of their product up. Now that the 100 and the AIRX from McGill's are operating the same route and mostly the same stops, with the AIRX being cheaper, the only benefit to taking the 100 is what they're marketing as better quality, and that isn't going to come if they've got too few vehicles on the route or unpredictable run times. Since the change in City terminus, the AIRX buses I've seen have had a lot more passengers on them, which is both good for McGill's and bad for Lothian.
If I were Lothian I'd be seriously looking at how I could get the 100 service to stand out in a good way - electric buses? Air conditioning? Emphasise the better accessibility of the vehicles?

Give McGill's an inch of room and they'll take a mile - they're competing with the tours already, they're competing with the 100 already - their next move might be City service? East Coast services? And it's just going to end up in a poorer situation for passengers - areas or routes that they can't use their day ticket on, more expensive fares and poorer service quality in areas that Lothian withdraw from. That's been McGill's expansion strategy in the West; if they can get away with doing it here as well, I believe they will.

What for a faster more consistent journey time with less stops. Airlink needs to stop less and focus more on airport traffic rather than being a fast limited stop bus for residents of West Edinburgh.

Never say never! While the B8L/XLB combination might not be publicly available, if the order is big enough a manufacturer may be persuaded to change its mind - see the recent re-introduction of the diesel Solo, for example. Having said that, considering Lothian's route map to electrification, I think that particular ship has sailed.

I'd be keeping an eye on Volvo. While there isn't a tri-axle version of the BZL yet, there is a tri-axle BZR in its range; not having a tri-axle, low-floor double decker in the range leaves a significant gap and I suspect it will want to plug that hole eventually. As for bodywork, Alexander Dennis may be unwilling to build, but I'm sure MCV would step in if necessary.

All excellent points, particularly about the demand for a previously discontinued product and the demand that that product might then generate if someone starts making it again, correctly pointing out what's happening with the diesel solo, I don't think that story is anywhere near its end yet if I'm honest

I think Edinburgh airport might like the idea of electric vehicles running its primary City Centre bus service and would be prepared to invest in the infrastructure to opportunity charge these at their end. But whether they would be the willingness from City of Edinburgh Council is another matter, especially with the e Ever-Shifting quicksand of bus service provision in an increaseingly crouded city.



If I were them I'd be looking at a further diesel fleet to last the next 5 years but would be making the sort of noises that suggested that when the next fleet renewal came due that I would be wanting to electrify.
This might at least allow both City authorities and manufacturers to get their houses in order in terms of a readily available off-the-shelf product and the necessary infrastructure to make it work in the area it was meant to operate


I suppose the other arguement is that some envisaged airlink becoming a far less important and less frequent service once the tram was fully established and that route could also be explored again with several standard City routes simply being extended to service the airport for those. Still wishing to travel by bus with those from the city centre being expected to use the tram or indeed any other commercial service that someone else might want to offer

 

[Bus9120UK]

What for a faster more consistent journey time with less stops. Airlink needs to stop less and focus more on airport traffic rather than being a fast limited stop bus for residents of West Edinburgh.

From experience, admittedly as a local who reguarly uses the service, the stops are well used by Airport travelers for hotels. I don't think Lothian want to remove that option, nor do I see any logic behind doing it either. Saving a minute while losing lots of customers. Its stupidity at best. The journey time doesn't end up being hugely different due to other hold ups along the way which do affect Bright Bus, allowing Airlink to catch back up. That being said locals do still use it, generally those with Ridacards or NECs (as Lothian increased single fares a few years ago for Airlink to reduce the number of locals using it) as its a more convenient quicker option, especially at peak times where the normal services are packed.

At the moment I think Bright Bus is just not doing well enough passenger number wise, I don't see how it can be sustainable maintaining their service long term, especially when winter arrives and demand dies down again. Perhaps they should be considering serving these extra stops as it might make a difference passenger number wise.

 

[stevenedin]

What for a faster more consistent journey time with less stops. Airlink needs to stop less and focus more on airport traffic rather than being a fast limited stop bus for residents of West Edinburgh.


All excellent points, particularly about the demand for a previously discontinued product and the demand that that product might then generate if someone starts making it again, correctly pointing out what's happening with the diesel solo, I don't think that story is anywhere near its end yet if I'm honest

I think Edinburgh airport might like the idea of electric vehicles running its primary City Centre bus service and would be prepared to invest in the infrastructure to opportunity charge these at their end. But whether they would be the willingness from City of Edinburgh Council is another matter, especially with the e Ever-Shifting quicksand of bus service provision in an increaseingly crouded city.



If I were them I'd be looking at a further diesel fleet to last the next 5 years but would be making the sort of noises that suggested that when the next fleet renewal came due that I would be wanting to electrify.
This might at least allow both City authorities and manufacturers to get their houses in order in terms of a readily available off-the-shelf product and the necessary infrastructure to make it work in the area it was meant to operate


I suppose the other arguement is that some envisaged airlink becoming a far less important and less frequent service once the tram was fully established and that route could also be explored again with several standard City routes simply being extended to service the airport for those. Still wishing to travel by bus with those from the city centre being expected to use the tram or indeed any other commercial service that someone else might want to offer

I agree that there should be less stops. They should only stop at Shandwick Place, Haymarket, Edinburgh Zoo, Drum Brae South and Airport Hotels. The 200 covers Maybury for those going to the airport on that section.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I don't even see the need for the zoo or drumray. Non-stop from Haymarket and the airport airport hotels, ingleston, Park and ride, etc. Traffic could be directed on to a separate shuttle bus between the terminal and these destinations speeding up journey times from the city centre. Further, the difference on the McGills service not serving the hotels is noticeable

 

[computerSaysNo]

What is vehicle 221 doing today? It looks to be heading westbound on the A8 around Murrayfield just now, showing "Private Hire" on the screen. From looking at bustimes it looks like it has been to the RBS offices near the airport?

 

[CSB0241]

The recent changes have caused havoc with running times and reliability.

Why did the 100 go up to every 9 minutes anyway? It just feels like such a specific frequency, & it’s only 2 buses per 3 hours more so it makes a very little difference overall.

 

[Darklord8899]

I don't think there needs to be less stops or any shuttle service to intermediate stops. The stops have all been picked for a reason.

Wester Cotes (was added, after the removal of A8/RBS, to serve the Guest Houses in that area.)
Murrayfield Ice Rink (for Murrayfield Stadium - Rugby fans especially will fly in for match and fly back home same day)
Western Corner (for Hotels and Guest Houses in Murrayfield area)
Zoo (large Holiday Inn Hotel beside the zoo and a Guest House opposite)
Drumbrae (several Guest houses in that area)
Maybury (large Hotel there)

 

[SilentWatcher]

Airlink needs to stop less and focus more on airport traffic rather than being a fast limited stop bus for residents of West Edinburgh.

I have heard a number of drivers say the Air Link should be set down only going into town, with some supervisors agreeing as well. Delays caused by west Edinburgh residents hopping onto that instead of one of the city buses to save a minute or two in short journeys are commonplace. I would even go so far to say some of these residents would flatly refuse to use anything other than a 100.

 

[stevenedin]

I have heard a number of drivers say the Air Link should be set down only going into town, with some supervisors agreeing as well. Delays caused by west Edinburgh residents hopping onto that instead of one of the city buses to save a minute or two in short journeys are commonplace. I would even go so far to say some of these residents would flatly refuse to use anything other than a 100.

The only way around that will be to stop allowing the Ridacard to be accepted on the Airlink and this would push people onto the X18. For fare payers, the X38 is also an option.

 

[Bus9120UK]

The only way around that will be to stop allowing the Ridacard to be accepted on the Airlink and this would push people onto the X18. For fare payers, the X38 is also an option.

Part of the Airlink attractiveness is the frequency - its guaranteed it'll turn up especially at later hours. An every 30 minute service won't do that.
Unlike the 26, it doesn't stop at each stop en-route for 3 minutes boarding a number of people. Its faster, especially at peak times, and often allows you to get a seat instead of being cramped stood among other passengers.
The local buses in the area would need peak time frequency boosts to make them more attractive again, in my opinion.

Why did the 100 go up to every 9 minutes anyway? It just feels like such a specific frequency, & it’s only 2 buses per 3 hours more so it makes a very little difference overall.

Its a busy service, that's why. Each bus added makes a difference. Less people boarding on each bus will speed up journey times, which are already a bit inconvenient at some stops due to the flow of passengers boarding for the Airport.

 

[roadierway77]

I agree that there should be less stops. They should only stop at Shandwick Place, Haymarket, Edinburgh Zoo, Drum Brae South and Airport Hotels. The 200 covers Maybury for those going to the airport on that section.

The journey time of the AIRX is essentially identical to that of the Airlink, despite the fact the former has far fewer stops. I don't think the Airlink should cut any stops because it clearly won't affect the journey time much and will just reduce passenger numbers.

At the moment I think Bright Bus is just not doing well enough passenger number wise, I don't see how it can be sustainable maintaining their service long term, especially when winter arrives and demand dies down again.

I agree. I doubt Lothian will really need to do much to beat the AIRX as I don't see how the AIRX will survive long term - while it's doing a lot better now, most of the E300s would likely have to run full to turn a profit with the high airport surcharges, and they just aren't. Considering that McGill’s have already quietly raised fares, reducing the price difference between the Airlink and AIRX, I don't see it lasting beyond this winter, or next winter at the most.

On the topic of new vehicles - I feel electric is unlikely even though it would be ideal for a route as short as the 100, simply because there isn't really an electric double decker on the UK market that matches the capacity of an E400 XLB. One could compensate for that with an increase in frequency and thus more vehicles but that would cost more and add even more buses onto the already very busy A8 corridor. If Lothian were to order new vehicles I could see them going for the tri-axle Volvo B8L, they have almost the same capacity as the XLBs and we all know Lothian likes a good Volvo.

 

[CSB0241]

I believe two B5TL’s are being rebranded into the new airlink livery as spares.

Which ones? 496/7?

I believe Airlink replacements are planned for 2025, though in my opinion the current ones could do with an external refresh in the meantime.

I wonder what it’ll be on. Are there any electric chassis that could be used for a tri-axle bus like the E400XLB or MCV Evoseti XL?

Maybe E500EVs?

I don’t think that E500EVs are available in the UK.

I'd be keeping an eye on Volvo. While there isn't a tri-axle version of the BZL yet, there is a tri-axle BZR in its range; not having a tri-axle, low-floor double decker in the range leaves a significant gap and I suspect it will want to plug that hole eventually. As for bodywork, Alexander Dennis may be unwilling to build, but I'm sure MCV would step in if necessary.

You beat me to it. If Volvo don’t make a tri-axle BZL double-deck chassis before 2025, could a potential tri-axle Yutong bus work if one gets made (what with the first GTe14s being shipped to operators like Ember or the demonstrator used on the Xplore Dundee FLY)?

Competition is why!

I think that if they wanted competition, it’d have probably been better to stick to Waterloo Place to get all the passengers at Waverley Steps, & I will stand by that, but I guess that it’s probably just as good, if not better, change competition-wise.

No. There wouldn't be the demand there, plus nowhere to turn a bus.

I always thought a smaller single decker (like a Solo or E200MMC) could turn at one of the small roundabouts on Roman Court, but I’ve just looked at it on street view, & you couldn’t fit anything bigger than a minibus around one of them if you tried.

Eastern Scottish used the northbound lay-by on the A68 around half a mile south of Pathhead to turn buses on their 512? 40 years plus ago.

Yeah, that looks better. Still looks quite narrow for a bus larger than a 9 meter bus to pull out of though.

Part of the Airlink attractiveness is the frequency - its guaranteed it'll turn up especially at later hours. An every 30 minute service won't do that.
Unlike the 26, it doesn't stop at each stop en-route for 3 minutes boarding a number of people. Its faster, especially at peak times, and often allows you to get a seat instead of being cramped stood among other passengers.
The local buses in the area would need peak time frequency boosts to make them more attractive again, in my opinion.

Its a busy service, that's why. Each bus added makes a difference. Less people boarding on each bus will speed up journey times, which are already a bit inconvenient at some stops due to the flow of passengers boarding for the Airport.

I hadn’t really thought that far, but yeah, that’s a fair point. What they could do if they were to make the 100 set down only is increase the X18 to every 20min to make up for it (or, if pressed enough, every 15min).