Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[overthewater]

YOU said The service has since been cancelled.

Ie it now gone.

 

[OmniCity999]

YOU said The service has since been cancelled.

Ie it now gone.

Okay boss, whatever you want.

 

[CN04NRJ]

You back up what im saying that is definitely gone then. Good to see you agree,

However if the Ex2 was still running it would get the funding, there is other routes which are express route and also compete with trains. Yet Ex2 cant?

You got the answer that you wanted - that the Ex2 has been cancelled because it's not currently viable (and as you're also privy to the traffic commissioners personal views - it couldn't come back anyway as the coaches have been used on other work) but yet you're still complaining that it should have had funding and should be running as other express services (not run by Lothian) that compete with the railway are still running?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I believe they have been cancelled.

Appears the EX2 is still registered: https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/543682/

 

[CN04NRJ]

The Green arrows are deffo gone, There is no way the Traffic commissioner is going to allow Lothian to bring back the EX2 when they feel like it, since the coaches have been off making money on rail replacements. Ex2 if running would be getting a help to cover its costs.

What if the company decided to bring the EX2 back using B7RLEs or the Streetairs? Would the traffic commissioner, in your view, allow it then?

I don't see how what the Leopards have been used on post lockdown has any bearing on whether the service will be 'allowed' to return or not. For clarity, before someone tries to inform me the Streetairs wouldn't be suitable for the EX2 - I wasn't being serious. I'm sure you'd be just as critical if the Leopards were kept parked and the opportunity wasn't taken to use them on other work.

 

[Jordan Adam]

What if the company decided to bring the EX2 back using B7RLEs or the Streetairs? Would the traffic commissioner, in your view, allow it then?

I would most certainly hope not!

 

[Graham Alexand]

If anyone says a definite answer WW3 will likely break out, however it seems "likely" that they won't come back...

Fair point, thanks.

Idle waffle

Lothian Country operated the X38 & EX2 commercially. During March it was removed from service due to expected low passenger numbers. The service has since been cancelled. Its an all day express service - there would be no great demand for it at this time. im not saying none, im saying there wouldn't be constant demand. On top of that, the route wouldn't get funding as its not a necessary route. The town of Linlithgow has a frequent train service and a frequent bus service from First. As mentioned before, the EX2 is an express route, missing out large areas - its less likely to get funded due to this.

Numbers will have been gauged on the Linlithgow Corridor since then and at this time it has been judged that it wouldn't be viable to continue their operation and the competition with First. So the service was paused. Later cancelled due to rules

Whilst i agree the coaches will likely be making more money on the rail replacement work, this being another contributing factor to the EX2 not being back. It's not the entire reason. There are other vehicles available to operate this route after all. The hoards of single deckers in the fleet etc. If they really wanted to run the route, there are plenty buses in the Lothian Country fleet and wider, there are plenty buses in reserve.

I'm not saying they'll definitely be back. But the Traffic Commissioner isnt going to outright say no. As previously stated, at this point the service has been terminated, its no longer on hold. it's been cancelled due to Traffic commissioner rules regarding services on 'Pause'.

They may be back in the future when numbers pick up.

Bottom line, the demand currently isnt there at this point in the Pandemic and First doing there bit, not to mention the train service. This is the reason the EX2 isnt currently back.

Makes sense because First operates the full X38 route.

My opinion Linlithgow doesn't need an express service because it just makes competition with there already low demand X38.

I think the service would have done better if it somehow was extended to Livingston Centre but thats my opinion.

If the X38 is cut Linlithgow is still well served so they wont miss out on anything, maybe Linlithgow Bridge will though.

 

[ScotRail158725]

When and will the B5TL’s registered SJ66 return to service 22? And will the ex London B9TL’s be used on the 14 again?

if the fleet are to return to their pre covid depot, which its not certain they will, then the 22 definately wont get them back as its now a Central based route

 

[TheManWho]

The Green arrows are deffo gone, There is no way the Traffic commissioner is going to allow Lothian to bring back the EX2 when they feel like it, since the coaches have been off making money on rail replacements. Ex2 if running would be getting a help to cover its costs.

What a company does with its vehicles while a route is "suspended" has got nothing to do with the Traffic Commissioner.

 

[overthewater]

You got the answer that you wanted - that the Ex2 has been cancelled because it's not currently viable (and as you're also privy to the traffic commissioners personal views - it couldn't come back anyway as the coaches have been used on other work) but yet you're still complaining that it should have had funding and should be running as other express services (not run by Lothian) that compete with the railway are still running?

NO? So its now complaining to highlight a fallacy?

The company would have got financial support IF the Ex2 was kept. Thats buy in buy..

What a company does with its vehicles while a route is "suspended" has got nothing to do with the Traffic Commissioner.

Right? Im sure the Traffic Commissioner going to be like hey that fine you can restart you services now after using the vehicles on highly profitable duties instead, even thought you were eligible to get help to support the route, since two months ago

Lothian can operate what it likes on the Ex2 but they haven't.

Appears the EX2 is still registered: https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/543682/

Mackies and two Stirling Companies are in the same boat, it would seem Mackies are not coming back.

 

[TheManWho]

NO? So its now complaining to highlight a fallacy?

The company would have got financial support IF the Ex2 was kept. Thats buy in buy..



Right? Im sure the Traffic Commissioner going to be like hey that fine you can restart you services now after using the vehicles on highly profitable duties instead, even thought you were eligible to get help to support the route, since two months ago

Lothian can operate what it likes on the Ex2 but they haven't.





Mackies and two Stirling Companies are in the same boat, it would seem Mackies are not coming back.

Exactly that. The TC would have the right to complain if Lothian were using vehicles that were meant to be on a scheduled service, but instead were used on something "more profitable." However, the route is suspended. Even the "support" wouldn't make the current service profitable right now.

The TC would look at the facts, which are:
- The route, for whichever reason, is suspended.

If/when the routes are restarted, it would be at a time the management and Lothian feel to be appropriate. Again, the TC would look at the facts:
- The route is now re-starting. We expect a decent, safe service to be provided.

Regardless of what vehicles are going to run on the EX2, nobody is going to use it during the pandemic, it doesn't have to run. There have been all sorts of examples of this all over the UK in the commercial, regulated and municipal environments.

These are the facts, not a fantasy written up on the back of a cigarette packet.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is the thread that never stops giving, with the usual opposing standpoints.

We have gone over this ad infinitum.

We often criticise the bus industry for a lack of innovation and when businesses do innovate, it's never a cast iron guarantee. In some cases, it may be a good idea but poorly executed (see various First efforts over the years) or it might be well executed but the actual idea is flawed (see Transdev CityZap Manchester or First Greyhound).

The Green Arrows seemed like a good idea in terms of a general concept i.e. to exploit any ScotRail weaknesses and to provide an alternative service to some areas that were not rail connected. In terms of the physical product, you can't really knock the investment and the implementation of the routes. However, IMHO, it was fundamentally flawed in that you just wouldn't get the critical mass of passengers from two relatively small towns that had a competing rail service, even if it did have the USP of serving the 'burbs and RBS.

In that context, Covid probably hastened the end of the EX2. Of course, Lothian could bring it back but I can fully understand why they wouldn't. Much better to be making money with those vehicles on RR stuff than carrying fresh air.

As for the TC, they are being pragmatic in all aspects with operators. We see it across the UK with some services still missing whilst resources are deployed on busy core routes in order to provide sufficiently socially distanced capacity. That the EX2 or X38 haven't returned (and that the general public is generally not inconvenienced by that) is a recognition of this. Trying to equate behaviours of both operators and the TC in these times against the pre Covid world doesn't reflect the realities of the world now (* except of course in terms of safety and legislative observance).

 

[GusB]

I think the situation regarding the EX2 service has been fully explained, and I see no point in complaining about its return (or lack thereof), especially when some forum members were dead against it from the outset!

Could we please draw this particular argument to a close and move on?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Don’t worry I’m sure it’ll be brought up again in 3 weeks

 

[OmniCity999]

Don’t worry I’m sure it’ll be brought up again in 3 weeks

like anything on this thread

 

[scosutsut]

What else can we bicker about in the meantime?

 

[OmniCity999]

What else can we bicker about in the meantime?

anything except going back to what the new buses are

Unless anyone is willing to share pictures then we can discuss them freely

 

[TheEastCoaster]

We could bicker about LCB again? That always seems to be fun in this forum

 

[overthewater]

Don’t worry I’m sure it’ll be brought up again in 3 weeks

That made me chuckle,

Maybe we should bicker about the scottish Government announcement the implications for Lothian. Will continue to operate a full service?

 

[Swanny200]

That made me chuckle,

Maybe we should bicker about the scottish Government announcement the implications for Lothian. Will continue to operate a full service?

I think her quote was unless it is travelling for school or work that we discourage you from using public transport if possible in the 5 areas of the central belt, that to me is a deathknell to a lot of bus companies who are just starting to go back to a semblance of a full service, I can see a lot of companies including Lothian scaling back again, there was posts about nightbuses a few weeks ago, I can see them scaled back for a start.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

We could bicker about LCB again? That always seems to be fun in this forum

Ridacards - (rolls grenade, then runs)

 

[overthewater]

I think her quote was unless it is travelling for school or work that we discourage you from using public transport if possible in the 5 areas of the central belt, that to me is a deathknell to a lot of bus companies who are just starting to go back to a semblance of a full service, I can see a lot of companies including Lothian scaling back again, there was posts about nightbuses a few weeks ago, I can see them scaled back for a start.

The schools are shut no matter what from Friday anyways because its October break, and because of that less people would be working anyways.

 

[scosutsut]

We could come up with a rota? Reckon we could face off every couple of days without looping back round too quickly?

LCB
B8RLEs
Ridacards
EX2/X38
Motorcoaches
Heritage Fleet Disposals
Lothian City Brand
Websites
Twitter team not mentioning First
Bid/Non Bid for tendered services

Loads to get us started!

 

[Jordan Adam]

We could come up with a rota? Reckon we could face off every couple of days without looping back round too quickly?

LCB
B8RLEs
Ridacards
EX2/X38
Motorcoaches
Heritage Fleet Disposals
Lothian City Brand
Websites
Twitter team not mentioning First
Bid/Non Bid for tendered services

Loads to get us started!

You forget the questions about reinstating certain deroofed/fire damaged buses!

 

[fgwrich]

I'm not intending to stoke up any fires here at all (only commenting now as I've been at work all day) but I cant say I'm surprised to see the EX2 disappear. I used it once last year when staying in Linlithgow when we had the summer of floods (& Winchburgh tunnel flooded), due to a very limited rail replacement being put on by ScotRail. At the start of the journey, it picked up a handful of passengers in the Linlithgow area and was fairly rapid through Ratho, but as soon as we hit the Glasgow Road / Corstorphine area of Edinburgh, it became a rather slow and tedious crawl into the city centre due to sheer volume of traffic - the express element rapidly lost.

Anyway, moving on. A question for those who may know, do we know which vehicles have been sold in this years clear-out list?

 

[Bus9120UK]

We could come up with a rota? Reckon we could face off every couple of days without looping back round too quickly?

LCB
B8RLEs
Ridacards
EX2/X38
Motorcoaches
Heritage Fleet Disposals
Lothian City Brand
Websites
Twitter team not mentioning First
Bid/Non Bid for tendered services

Loads to get us started!

You've forgotten the long conversations on Bus Panels and Incidents too

 

[Aaronb2601]

This is really random but I’m not a driver so I don’t know, when someone pushes the stop button does the stopping light only turn off after the doors open or is there a button the driver presses to turn it off?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

This is really random but I’m not a driver so I don’t know, when someone pushes the stop button does the stopping light only turn off after the doors open or is there a button the driver presses to turn it off?

Opening the doors will deactivate the stop request, yes

I believe the next stop announcements are also controlled by the doors (as well as the onboard GPS)

 

[ScotRail158725]

Anyway, moving on. A question for those who may know, do we know which vehicles have been sold in this years clear-out list?

04/55 plate B7RLEs, all the B7TLs excpet 763 which is sat at Seafield and has been sat there for around 8/9 months now (only 11 ive not seen with new operators so the other 10 might still be at Lothian), some if not all of the non compliant coaches (including the heritage liveried one), 112/701

 

[fgwrich]

04/55 plate B7RLEs, all the B7TLs excpet 763 which is sat at Seafield and has been sat there for around 8/9 months now (only 11 ive not seen with new operators so the other 10 might still be at Lothian), some if not all of the non compliant coaches (including the heritage liveried one), 112/701

Excellent, Thank You!