Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[scosutsut]

20942 is finally out.

Link to photo on Flickr:

East Coast Buses 942 - SN10 DKO

After spending more than three years out of service following a bridge strike in 2017, 942 is now back in service and is seen here on service 124 to North Berwick.

www.flickr.com

Good to see! Well done all for getting her back.

Side vinyls are missing on the lower panels, unless they are planning on simplifying the livery by dropping those?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Good to see! Well done all for getting her back.

Side vinyls are missing on the lower panels, unless they are planning on simplifying the livery by dropping those?

Sadly this is the updated livery. I don't like it, just makes the livery unfinished!

 

[ScotRail158725]

Good to see! Well done all for getting her back.

Side vinyls are missing on the lower panels, unless they are planning on simplifying the livery by dropping those?

365, 371, 387, 397/398, 420 to name a few have all come back from repaint with the lower gold band ditched

 

[OmniCity999]

Good to see! Well done all for getting her back.

Side vinyls are missing on the lower panels, unless they are planning on simplifying the livery by dropping those?

Sadly this is the updated livery. I don't like it, just makes the livery unfinished!

Their looking at changing the livery again

Lets just undo everything that came in under Hall

 

[Bus9120UK]

Their looking at changing the livery again

Lets just undo everything that came in under Hall

Really.. The livery was good how it was. It's only getting ruined now...

 

[OmniCity999]

Really.. The livery was good how it was. It's only getting ruined now...

personally, i think the best livery we've had since Edinburgh Corporation was Swoops - it was designed for the Eclipse (&Gemini) bodies.

What we need is liveries suited to body styles. The current one is alright, but theres too much white, in my opinion.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Looks like some more 11 plate Gemini2’s have gained Hanover displays, I’ve seen both 369 and 371 in recent days with them. I take it most of these units are reused from now sold vehicles (where operators didn’t want to pay for them) rather than new ones?

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

personally, i think the best livery we've had since Edinburgh Corporation was Swoops - it was designed for the Eclipse (&Gemini) bodies.

What we need is liveries suited to body styles. The current one is alright, but theres too much white, in my opinion.

Is it me or is the current madder red a slightly different shade than the LRT one?

 

[ScotRail158725]

Their looking at changing the livery again

Is that why the 11 plate Gemini repaints stopped?

 

[scosutsut]

Sadly this is the updated livery. I don't like it, just makes the livery unfinished!

365, 371, 387, 397/398, 420 to name a few have all come back from repaint with the lower gold band ditched

Their looking at changing the livery again

Lets just undo everything that came in under Hall

Really.. The livery was good how it was. It's only getting ruined now...

I guess there is a degree of logic - the ADL Enviro 400s and the E400XLBs all don't have that detail neither do the new MCVs so it's a cost that can be cut and a bit of standardisation... Just don't start me on fleetnames, I'll just repeat a previous moan!

personally, i think the best livery we've had since Edinburgh Corporation was Swoops - it was designed for the Eclipse (&Gemini) bodies.

What we need is liveries suited to body styles. The current one is alright, but theres too much white, in my opinion.

I don't mind the Fleet of the Future livery however my main gripe is how badly it looks on first generation Gemini and Eclipse bodies at the front it's completely unsympathetic to the shape (admittedly these will probably be all but gone in the next year or two based on age I reckon!)

I also hate the colour scheme for ECB. As I've moaned before. I think the colours scheme should have reflected the county in some way! The Blue/White that Skylink uses had they not got it first wouldn't have been a bad shout given the Musselburgh Depot and the whole Saltire link.

 

[OmniCity999]

Is it me or is the current madder red a slightly different shade than the LRT one?

its completely different, yeah - its more purply

 

[figgi757]

Its been out a couple of times on short runs the last few days.

Certainly wasn’t in that shade of green back in August!

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

its completely different, yeah - its more purply

Hopefully in the next livery, they go back to the original madder. It was iconic.

 

[90019]

The newer colour is weinrot rather than madder.

IIRC they tried using madder on 649 when it was first repainted out of harlequin back in 2010 but it looked awful, so weinrot was chosen as a less drab alternative.

 

[OmniCity999]

Hopefully in the next livery, they go back to the original madder. It was iconic.

The newer colour is weinrot rather than madder.

IIRC they tried using madder on 649 when it was first repainted out of harlequin back in 2010, but it looked awful, so weinrot was chosen as a slightly less drab alternative.

Exactly this, hasnt aged well...

Certainly wasn’t in that shade of green back in August!

thats a secret it was also rebuilt using parts from one 775-780, think it was 779.

There are alot of enthusiasts that would love to see pictures of that process...

 

[tbtc]

I agree that it's a silly decision. If Princes Street is going to be too busy then why not send (say) all the Leith Walk services down Queen Street and York Place instead

I guess that the two main things are the "new" road layouts (so that Queensferry Road/ Fife services all run along Princes Street, which must add around thirty buses per hour to Princes Street...

...plus the fact that passenger demand seems to be to Princes Street itself, which is why we've seen various routes that went up the Mound (etc) replaced by Princes Street ones.

Also, the longer distance East Lothian stuff now runs through to the West End, rather than terminating at St Andrew Square, whilst the West Lothian services now run all the way to Regent Road.

Look at an older bus map, there were frequent corridors that didn't run along Princes Street - the 1/6 and 34/35 along the Royal Mile, there was the 28/29 and 42/46 and 89 up the Mound, the 19/39 never crossed Princes Street, there was a lot more variety - but the Eastern Scottish services (mainly City Sprinter ones) ran direct along Princes Street and the LRT network slowly followed suit - meaning we now have a situation where there are over a hundred "regular" buses per hour along Princes Street (plus trams, plus guided tours, plus tourist coaches etc etc) - it's nice and "simple" in that everything tends to run the same way - probably easier for people changing between services - but it's quite the bottleneck and I can see why The Powers That Be are wanting to at least be seen to try to do something about it.

It wouldn't take much to divert a few buses per hour away (e.g. turn a "Leith Walk to Lothian Road" service and a "Bridges to Haymarket/Queensferry Road" service into a "Leith Walk to Bridges" service and a Lothian Road to Haymarket/ Queensferry Road" service - doesn't need ao be anything really radical) - but nobody is going to want *their* local service diverted away from the main shopping area, so it'll be tricky to get people to agree

(yeah, there are a handful of services that don't run along Princes Street - but significantly fewer buses per hour than twenty years ago)

 

[Highland050261]

Exactly this, hasnt aged well...

thats a secret it was also rebuilt using parts from one 775-780, think it was 779.

There are alot of enthusiasts that would love to see pictures of that process...

What happened to the remains of 779? Were they scrapped?

 

[ScotRail158725]

thats a secret it was also rebuilt using parts from one 775-780, think it was 779.

There are alot of enthusiasts that would love to see pictures of that process...

779 hasnt been accounted for since it was withdrawn in february 2019, all the rest are at new operators

 

[Siemens Trains]

I guess that the two main things are the "new" road layouts (so that Queensferry Road/ Fife services all run along Princes Street, which must add around thirty buses per hour to Princes Street...

...plus the fact that passenger demand seems to be to Princes Street itself, which is why we've seen various routes that went up the Mound (etc) replaced by Princes Street ones.

Also, the longer distance East Lothian stuff now runs through to the West End, rather than terminating at St Andrew Square, whilst the West Lothian services now run all the way to Regent Road.

Look at an older bus map, there were frequent corridors that didn't run along Princes Street - the 1/6 and 34/35 along the Royal Mile, there was the 28/29 and 42/46 and 89 up the Mound, the 19/39 never crossed Princes Street, there was a lot more variety - but the Eastern Scottish services (mainly City Sprinter ones) ran direct along Princes Street and the LRT network slowly followed suit - meaning we now have a situation where there are over a hundred "regular" buses per hour along Princes Street (plus trams, plus guided tours, plus tourist coaches etc etc) - it's nice and "simple" in that everything tends to run the same way - probably easier for people changing between services - but it's quite the bottleneck and I can see why The Powers That Be are wanting to at least be seen to try to do something about it.

It wouldn't take much to divert a few buses per hour away (e.g. turn a "Leith Walk to Lothian Road" service and a "Bridges to Haymarket/Queensferry Road" service into a "Leith Walk to Bridges" service and a Lothian Road to Haymarket/ Queensferry Road" service - doesn't need ao be anything really radical) - but nobody is going to want *their* local service diverted away from the main shopping area, so it'll be tricky to get people to agree

(yeah, there are a handful of services that don't run along Princes Street - but significantly fewer buses per hour than twenty years ago)

Remember that general traffic used to be allowed on Princes Street until a couple of decades ago. That would amount to a lot more than 100 vehicles per hour, albeit with three lanes each way rather than the present two. Perhaps this discouraged routing as many buses along here and maybe designating Princes Street as a bus/taxi/cycle road was viewed as a good opportunity by the bus companies to transfer routes onto a quieter street, in addition to being attractive for shopping in those days. But George St has a fair number of shops too, and can be quite a lively area of an evening along with Rose St etc.
However I must say bus journeys have never felt slower to me, despite the absence of other traffic on Princes St. I wonder if it's all the traffic lights and tram priority that does it, or if I just look back with rose-tinted glasses.
Like you, I could never see the point of re-opening Shandwick Place at Ryan's Bar (the former fruit shop, Rankins) - there doesn't seem any advantage in dumping Queensferry St routes onto Princes St and the busy Lothian Road junction, while Charlotte Square and the west part of George St remain very quiet.

 

[Fifescottish]

Having travelled in from Fife for years I much preferred when services used Charlotte Square and George Street, was much quicker!

 

[TheEastCoaster]

would it ideally not make more sense to re-route certain services to either George Street or Queens Street from both ends to avoid proper conjunction?

proposal

Buses to serve:
Queens Street
1,4,10,19,26,34,44

George Street
11,12,16,24,25,29,30,31,37,41

Princess Street
3,15,22,33,43,X17,X18,X27,X28,X38,104,113,124,X5,X7 (All Nightbuses and Express Services)

the best idea is if a certain service serves the same area as another service then they shouldn’t run on the same route along town, like having the 26 on Queens Street and keep the 124 on Princess Street as they both serve Portobello and same for say the 44/113 as they both serve Brunstane

If Lothian also wanted to bring St Andrews Square back as a terminus than I would of also suggested bringing the West Lothian services on George Street. Or vice versa for the East Lothian services but on Charlottes Square

 

[A330Alex]

The east end of Princes Street was always a bit of a bottle neck so hopefully the new bus gates and closure of Waverley Bridge can help speed things up. Just needs some camera enforcement & adjusted traffic lights at Waverley Bridge.

Bus rerouting wise, I would have thought shifting the 10/11/16 to George Street would be an easy first move since they already move up there eastbound. I'd imagine in 'normal' times they would add up to a non-trivial number of buses an hour. Would also solve the issue of Stagecoach services delaying them at Scott Monument and creating a queue.

 

[Grumpyscot]

The problem here would be that 26 passengers on Princes St would aim for the 124 - a half hourly service that often gets so filled up by people going no further than Joppa that passengers for East Lothian sometimes can't get on. It's happened to me a couple of times waiting at Waterloo Place. "Sorry, full up, pal". I've then had to get a 26 to Seton Sands and get someone to come and pick me up. The X5 also gets filled up with people bound for Willowbrae. You get to the Lady Nairne, and the bus is suddenly half empty.

P.S. Lothian Motorcoaches are being used on the 124 / 125 / 140. None have "on hire to" stickers that I've been able to see.

 

[CN04NRJ]

The problem here would be that 26 passengers on Princes St would aim for the 124 - a half hourly service that often gets so filled up by people going no further than Joppa that passengers for East Lothian sometimes can't get on. It's happened to me a couple of times waiting at Waterloo Place. "Sorry, full up, pal". I've then had to get a 26 to Seton Sands and get someone to come and pick me up. The X5 also gets filled up with people bound for Willowbrae. You get to the Lady Nairne, and the bus is suddenly half empty.

P.S. Lothian Motorcoaches are being used on the 124 / 125 / 140. None have "on hire to" stickers that I've been able to see.

Why would they need on hire stickers when they've got East Coast Buses legal lettering and operating license discs displayed?

 

[90019]

P.S. Lothian Motorcoaches are being used on the 124 / 125 / 140. None have "on hire to" stickers that I've been able to see.

They've been transferred to ECB and had the legals on the side of the bus changed so aren't on hire.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

would it ideally not make more sense to re-route certain services to either George Street or Queens Street from both ends to avoid proper conjunction?

proposal

Buses to serve:
Queens Street
1,4,10,19,26,34,44

George Street
11,12,16,24,25,29,30,31,37,41

Princess Street
3,15,22,33,43,X17,X18,X27,X28,X38,104,113,124,X5,X7 (All Nightbuses and Express Services)

the best idea is if a certain service serves the same area as another service then they shouldn’t run on the same route along town, like having the 26 on Queens Street and keep the 124 on Princess Street as they both serve Portobello and same for say the 44/113 as they both serve Brunstane

If Lothian also wanted to bring St Andrews Square back as a terminus than I would of also suggested bringing the West Lothian services on George Street. Or vice versa for the East Lothian services but on Charlottes Square

The big advantage (from a passenger point of view) of almost everything going along Princes Street is the ease of interchange between services. Having to traipse up from Queen Street to Princes Street to connect isn't going to be popular.

Having buses that serve similar routes leaving from different streets is a terrible idea - if I was going to Willowbrae (or Musselburgh or Wallyford) having half the buses running from Princes and half from Queen Street is far less useful

As Queen Street is now the main through route for all other traffic I doubt having stopping bus services would help traffic flow

 

[tbtc]

Having buses that serve similar routes leaving from different streets is a terrible idea - if I was going to Willowbrae (or Musselburgh or Wallyford) having half the buses running from Princes and half from Queen Street is far less useful

Where do you draw the line though?

There's been a relatively random mix of York Place/ Leith Street for services towards both Leith Walk and London Road over the years - maybe it'd make more sense for all the London Road routes to go via York Place whilst all the Leith Walk services went down Leith Street, but then there'd be complaints that there was a lack of easy interchanges for people doing journeys like South Bridge to Jocks Lodge.

Some Jocks Lodge services run via London Road, some run via Regent Road... since the 4 and 5 have similar routes at the eastern side of town, but one comes over North Bridge whilst the other runs along Princes Street... but then if you made them run the same way through the city centre then someone would complain about a lack of "choice".

 

[buslad1988]

Where do you draw the line though?

There's been a relatively random mix of York Place/ Leith Street for services towards both Leith Walk and London Road over the years - maybe it'd make more sense for all the London Road routes to go via York Place whilst all the Leith Walk services went down Leith Street, but then there'd be complaints that there was a lack of easy interchanges for people doing journeys like South Bridge to Jocks Lodge.

Some Jocks Lodge services run via London Road, some run via Regent Road... since the 4 and 5 have similar routes at the eastern side of town, but one comes over North Bridge whilst the other runs along Princes Street... but then if you made them run the same way through the city centre then someone would complain about a lack of "choice".

Ever heard of the line “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”?! think that applies to the madness this council is trying to enforce on Lothian. They’ve managed to successfully run buses for 100 years so why start meddling now!

Yes there is/was a problem on Princes Street pre Covid-19 but it’s much better now. If they can sustain this long term and make the east end bus gate permanent (with enforcement) and a few other tweaks they don’t need to bring in such ludicrous changes.

The council can’t simply rid Princes Street of buses and favour trams as what happens when trams get suspended part route or halted altogether? (happens more often than you’d think!). Likewise tourists wanting Murrayfield or Zoo... are they expected to take a hopper to Shandwick Place to catch a bus from there?! Can’t think of anything less user friendly than that!

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Likewise tourists wanting Murrayfield or Zoo... are they expected to take a hopper to Shandwick Place to catch a bus from there?! Can’t think of anything less user friendly than that!

Also disabled people and infirm. To expect a large group of users daily to get one bus to the edge of town, on to a hopper, and on to a 3rd bus, is going to put people off using buses altogether and back in to the car. Which is exactly what they don't want to happen.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Also disabled people and infirm. To expect a large group of users daily to get one bus to the edge of town, on to a hopper, and on to a 3rd bus, is going to put people off using buses altogether and back in to the car. Which is exactly what they don't want to happen.

This is what happens when public transport becomes political and the decisions are made by people who have probably only ever sat on a bus for a photo opportunity. Their decisions won't affect them as they don't use bus services - the whole idea is an exercise in futility and they're too blind to see it.

It's a case of the goal justifying the means - in this case making large parts of the city centre free of dirty (/sarcasm) euro 6 or euro 6 EEV buses.