Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Its interesting to note that on the service changes link both the 14 and 15 are omitted on the list, so there is a good chance both the routes may have changes also but just forgot to add them, I’m only saying this because the 100 was added on the Airport buses section with “No Changes”

I don’t see how either route has changes as there’s a few ECB and LC services not listed either. The 100 probably is listed like it is as it is has the change before then.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I don’t see how either route has changes as there’s a few ECB and LC services not listed either. The 100 probably is listed like it is as it is has the change before then.

I thought all the ECB and LC services were listed? Can’t think of any that are missed out

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I thought all the ECB and LC services were listed? Can’t think of any that are missed out

No 280 and no 125-128 - the latter of which was unlikely anyway.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If you extended the 12 and wished to keep hybrids on it you would either need a fleet shuffle with some of the v5 deckers or you need to do it as an X 12 limited stop especially on the Eastern leg to avoid it becoming completely overwhelmed

 

[cammyeaston]

If you extended the 12 and wished to keep hybrids on it you would either need a fleet shuffle with some of the v5 deckers or you need to do it as an X 12 limited stop especially on the Eastern leg to avoid it becoming completely overwhelmed

Not necessarily, if you timed any 12 journeys to fit in nicely alongside service 45 then you'd be able to get away with the hybrids I reckon. Keep in mind that there will be 8 buses per hour between the city centre and Portobello - it's not exactly under-served and this could even bring the 45 into its own with fuller loads on the Eastern end.

 

[duncanp]

The new routing of the 41 is in fact taking the route back to what it was in the stone age early 1980s when I was a student in Edinburgh.

Then the 41 followed it's new (post June 5th) routing between Davidsons Mains, Cramond and Barnton, where it would terminate. Lothian Region Transport (as it then was) service no 18 ran direct along the Queensferry Road, and also terminated at the Barnton roundabout.

I suppose when the tram does start running to Newhaven, there will be a revision of services between the City Centre, Leith and Newhaven, so perhaps the (supposedly) temporary curtailment of the 22 is a foretaste of things to come.

 

[freddiem]

The new routing of the 41 is in fact taking the route back to what it was in the stone age early 1980s when I was a student in Edinburgh.

Then the 41 followed it's new (post June 5th) routing between Davidsons Mains, Cramond and Barnton, where it would terminate. Lothian Region Transport (as it then was) service no 18 ran direct along the Queensferry Road, and also terminated at the Barnton roundabout.

I suppose when the tram does start running to Newhaven, there will be a revision of services between the City Centre, Leith and Newhaven, so perhaps the (supposedly) temporary curtailment of the 22 is a foretaste of things to come.

The rerouting of the 41 seems to be a positive development, with it no longer having to sit a the Quality St Junction forever, and going straight through the Barnton Junction instead of turning left/right in and out of whitehouse road. I hope the timetables of the 41/43 will be balanced enough to stop huge crowds using the 43 leaving those who live in Queensferry behind at peak times (as was common pre-covid).

The curtailment of the 22 appears to be a cleverly crafted move likely pushed by the city council so when the trams begin they can paint the Ocean Terminal - City - Gyle link as a new exciting route. This move will also artificially inflate passenger numbers on the tram as it removes 5/6 buses an hour on the Leith corridor.

A further thought on the changes is the pressure that the East Coast changes will put on the 44 along Milton Road as it will be the sole all stopping route along there which will likely mean more people will choose it over the other routes as they will be certain it will stop near to their homes

 

[Mickcloud9]

I'm slightly concerned that the withdrawal of the 275 is a mistake. The current 276 does nothing from Livingston - Loganlea - Bathgate as it is. People don’t want to pay £2.80 to get from Polbeth/West Calder to Livingston so a fare change could be necessary to bolster this route. Also the new 276 won’t be serving the top end of Houston Industrial Estate and it will be a much longer journey getting from Livingston to Broxburn. This could turn folk onto other services.

I'm surprised something isn’t being done to the 280 as First Scotland East are running duplicates from Armadale in front of it and one from Blackridge right behind it. It would have been better with Blackridge - Bathgate via Armadale and Bathgate - Livingston via Deans North, straight down Alderstone Road to the Centre and run these in between the 280. It would shut the door on the X25.

 

[Acfb]

My local Councillor is complaining about the 10 and the 16 changes bit I can't see it's that a big a deal as there is no frequency reductions and people from West Colinton/Torphin can just change in Colinton to get the 10 towards Firrhill. More people in Bonaly might actually use the bus.

Otherwise they seem pretty sensible overall, curtailing the 22 seems very sensible and was always the long term aim anyway. I'm pretty ambivalent about the Tram extension TBH as I live in South Edinburgh and can get the 11 or the 16 direct to Ocean Terminal/Newhaven anyway.

Also great to see the X5 coming back, I might do the Longniddry to Haddington old railway walk some time.

 

[DunsBus]

The new routing of the 41 is in fact taking the route back to what it was in the stone age early 1980s when I was a student in Edinburgh.

Then the 41 followed it's new (post June 5th) routing between Davidsons Mains, Cramond and Barnton, where it would terminate. Lothian Region Transport (as it then was) service no 18 ran direct along the Queensferry Road, and also terminated at the Barnton roundabout.

I suppose when the tram does start running to Newhaven, there will be a revision of services between the City Centre, Leith and Newhaven, so perhaps the (supposedly) temporary curtailment of the 22 is a foretaste of things to come.

Almost - as I recall, prior to deregulation the 18 and 41 were linked at Barnton with the 18 also serving March Road. After deregulation the March Road section was withdrawn with the 18 then running direct via Queensferry Road. The 18/41 changeover point then became the top of Cramond Glebe Road, until the early nineties.

 

[overthewater]

I'm slightly concerned that the withdrawal of the 275 is a mistake. The current 276 does nothing from Livingston - Loganlea - Bathgate as it is. People don’t want to pay £2.80 to get from Polbeth/West Calder to Livingston so a fare change could be necessary to bolster this route. Also the new 276 won’t be serving the top end of Houston Industrial Estate and it will be a much longer journey getting from Livingston to Broxburn. This could turn folk onto other services.

I'm surprised something isn’t being done to the 280 as First Scotland East are running duplicates from Armadale in front of it and one from Blackridge right behind it. It would have been better with Blackridge - Bathgate via Armadale and Bathgate - Livingston via Deans North, straight down Alderstone Road to the Centre and run these in between the 280. It would shut the door on the X25.

What about Wester inch, which has now lost its direct service to Livingston? It does seem odd that Lothian are given up trying to get the Broxburn to Livingston passengers.

 

[Mickcloud9]

What about Western inch, who has now lost its direct service to Livingston. It does seem odd that Lothian are given up trying to get the Broxburn to Livingston passengers.

Also the passengers in Livingston Village. Although is a small area, the 275 is the only LCB service that serves Livingston Village. The new 276 has been extended from Bathgate Morrison’s and now terminates at Wester Inch, Simpson Avenue but will not serve the whole of that estate. I’m not sure the commercial teams have completely looked at the full picture. I was on a 275 today for an early morning shift and for the most I was kept busy on it. Personally I would introduce an extra bus to the service and ease the pressures on the running times therefore making it more reliable. I can’t see any improvement on the Livingston-Loganlea-Bathgate section of the 276 as First Scotland East appear to have cornered that particular area. LCB only getting stragglers from Loganlea going in either direction to Livingston or Bathgate. I was a 276 a week or so ago and when I pulled up the bus stance was full but everyone was waiting on the 26/26A service from First Scotland East. Only want they can improve passenger number would be to review the fare structures within West Lothian as some of the Fares are extreme for the distance being travelled, Blackridge to Armadale being £2.80 is one such example, as is West Calder/Polbeth to Livingston

 

[overthewater]

Also the passengers in Livingston Village. Although is a small area, the 275 is the only LCB service that serves Livingston Village. The new 276 has been extended from Bathgate Morrison’s and now terminates at Wester Inch, Simpson Avenue but will not serve the whole of that estate. I’m not sure the commercial teams have completely looked at the full picture. I was on a 275 today for an early morning shift and for the most I was kept busy on it. Personally I would introduce an extra bus to the service and ease the pressures on the running times therefore making it more reliable. I can’t see any improvement on the Livingston-Loganlea-Bathgate section of the 276 as First Scotland East appear to have cornered that particular area. LCB only getting stragglers from Loganlea going in either direction to Livingston or Bathgate. I was a 276 a week or so ago and when I pulled up the bus stance was full but everyone was waiting on the 26/26A service from First Scotland East. Only want they can improve passenger number would be to review the fare structures within West Lothian as some of the Fares are extreme for the distance being travelled, Blackridge to Armadale being £2.80 is one such example, as is West Calder/Polbeth to Livingston

I would have pulled off the 276, but hey oh. The only place Lothian made a minor change to the fare structure was around the Big Tesco building. However it does seem First and Lothian now have certain areas to its self.

 

[Acfb]

With the 10 reduced to every 20 minutes, Bonaly was down to hourly and Torphin had an irregular 20/40 pattern. Extending the 16 is an expensive way of solving the problem for tiny numbers of passengers. Off-peak the 10 is very quiet all the way into town.

I think it's interesting that they are extending all the 16s from Colinton to Torphin. I would have thought overall it's an improvement as more people in Bonaly might use the 10 with a more consistent and regular service. Also the Bonaly bound 10 still takes people a fair distance up Woodhall Rd before turning off towards Bonaly.

 

[Mickcloud9]

I would have pulled off the 276, but hey oh. The only place Lothian made a minor change to the fare structure was around the Big Tesco building. However it does seem First and Lothian now have certain areas to its self.

I would have Curtailed the 276 Livingston Maybe

 

[mb88]

The new 276 has been extended from Bathgate Morrison’s and now terminates at Wester Inch, Simpson Avenue but will not serve the whole of that estate.

I really can’t fathom out the thinking behind this decision at all. If they really must withdraw the 275, why not just put the 276 right through Wester Inch and have it terminate at Bathgate Railway Station as the 275 currently does? Having it go up past Tesco to Kaim Park and down Edinburgh Road and then go to Wester Inch but miss out 2/3rds of the estate is no use to man nor beast. They should really be rerouting the 276 in Blackburn as well so it turns right at the Cross coming from Loganlea then left into Elm Grove to serve that part which is being left by the withdrawal of the 275 also. Really don’t think this has been thought through at all.

I would have pulled off the 276, but hey oh. The only place Lothian made a minor change to the fare structure was around the Big Tesco building. However it does seem First and Lothian now have certain areas to its self.

Why would you have pulled off the 276? It’s busy between Broxburn and Livingston as it’s current routing makes it a relatively quick journey.

 

[overthewater]

Why would you have pulled off the 276? It’s busy between Broxburn and Livingston as it’s current routing makes it a relatively quick journey.

Because it's better than pulling off the 275.

 

[Mickcloud9]

I really can’t fathom out the thinking behind this decision at all. If they really must withdraw the 275, why not just put the 276 right through Wester Inch and have it terminate at Bathgate Railway Station as the 275 currently does? Having it go up past Tesco to Kaim Park and down Edinburgh Road and then go to Wester Inch but miss out 2/3rds of the estate is no use to man nor beast. They should really be rerouting the 276 in Blackburn as well so it turns right at the Cross coming from Loganlea then left into Elm Grove to serve that part which is being left by the withdrawal of the 275 also. Really don’t think this has been thought through at all.


Why would you have pulled off the 276? It’s busy between Broxburn and Livingston as it’s current routing makes it a relatively quick journey.

They are allegedly doing that but that’s going to be a very tight turn from the main road into the scheme at Blackburn.

 

[mb88]

They are allegedly doing that but that’s going to be a very tight turn from the main road into the scheme at Blackburn.

Oh aye I’ve just looked at the map and that is what they’re doing. It will be a tight turn but doable.

 

[Porty]

The rerouting of the 41 seems to be a positive development, with it no longer having to sit a the Quality St Junction forever, and going straight through the Barnton Junction instead of turning left/right in and out of whitehouse road. I hope the timetables of the 41/43 will be balanced enough to stop huge crowds using the 43 leaving those who live in Queensferry behind at peak times (as was common pre-covid).

The curtailment of the 22 appears to be a cleverly crafted move likely pushed by the city council so when the trams begin they can paint the Ocean Terminal - City - Gyle link as a new exciting route. This move will also artificially inflate passenger numbers on the tram as it removes 5/6 buses an hour on the Leith corridor.

A further thought on the changes is the pressure that the East Coast changes will put on the 44 along Milton Road as it will be the sole all stopping route along there which will likely mean more people will choose it over the other routes as they will be certain it will stop near to their homes.

As far as I can see the 113 and 124 will only be limited stop between Magdalene Drive and Abbeyhill. There's a diagrammatic map on the Lothian website if you click on the East Coast Buses section of the proposed changes. Therefore Milton Rd will actually have an improved service with the 124 additions.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

As far as I can see the 113 and 124 will only be limited stop between Magdalene Drive and Abbeyhill. There's a diagrammatic map on the Lothian website if you click on the East Coast Buses section of the proposed changes. Therefore Milton Rd will actually have an improved service with the 124 additions.

The 113 and 124 will share the same stopping pattern as the the X44. All are to stop at Portobello High School too.

X5 and X6 will share the same stopping pattern as the X7.

 

[Mickcloud9]

I really can’t fathom out the thinking behind this decision at all. If they really must withdraw the 275, why not just put the 276 right through Wester Inch and have it terminate at Bathgate Railway Station as the 275 currently does? Having it go up past Tesco to Kaim Park and down Edinburgh Road and then go to Wester Inch but miss out 2/3rds of the estate is no use to man nor beast. They should really be rerouting the 276 in Blackburn as well so it turns right at the Cross coming from Loganlea then left into Elm Grove to serve that part which is being left by the withdrawal of the 275 also. Really don’t think this has been thought through at all.


Why would you have pulled off the 276? It’s busy between Broxburn and Livingston as it’s current routing makes it a relatively quick journey.

Oh aye I’ve just looked at the map and that is what they’re doing. It will be a tight turn but doable.

It is do-able but bearing in mind the corner has bollards and there is a island, so the bus will have to take up a considerable amount of the oncoming carriageway in order to get around it, be interesting to see how many panels this costs in the first few weeks lol

 

[mb88]

It is do-able but bearing in mind the corner has bollards and there is a island, so the bus will have to take up a considerable amount of the oncoming carriageway in order to get around it, be interesting to see how many panels this costs in the first few weeks lol

Oh ye of little faith. We’re all professional drivers…allegedly.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

The 113 and 124 will share the same stopping pattern as the the X44. All are to stop at Portobello High School too.

X5 and X6 will share the same stopping pattern as the X7.

Guess that’s a good thing they are taking the new high school into consideration!

Why would you have pulled off the 276? It’s busy between Broxburn and Livingston as it’s current routing makes it a relatively quick journey.

Honestly I would of extended the 276 to the Gyle and maybe have one bus an hour extend that way from Broxburn like how one bus an hour extends from Loganlea to Bathgate, the 275 being cut seems haste, i would of looked for other alternatives to the route before considering giving it the chop, maybe this might be a good thing for the 276? Broxburn has the X18 for a direct fast service to Bathgate and Livingston has the 280 also so there’s plenty of options to changeover too!

And as for Wester Inch, I would of just ran the 276 the route to Bathgate Station like the 275 did rather than the opposite direction and cut out half of the estate, and then reroute the X27 to run through Livingston Village to fill the link.

My local Councillor is complaining about the 10 and the 16 changes bit I can't see it's that a big a deal as there is no frequency reductions and people from West Colinton/Torphin can just change in Colinton to get the 10 towards Firrhill. More people in Bonaly might actually use the bus.

I figured it makes sense in the long run, well that or run the 16’s up to Bonaly but it might be a tight turn!

Not necessarily, if you timed any 12 journeys to fit in nicely alongside service 45 then you'd be able to get away with the hybrids I reckon. Keep in mind that there will be 8 buses per hour between the city centre and Portobello - it's not exactly under-served and this could even bring the 45 into its own with fuller loads on the Eastern end.

I didn’t think about that but in all honesty I feel like the 45 won’t increase anytime soon, it was scrapped through most of the pandemic and it lost its Saturday services years before the 124 was introduced to Portobello, but with the 15 being no more there could be a chance?

I say trial the 12 to Eastfield

 

[stevenedin]

Maybe cancelling the 275 will free up some single deckers to go to ECB and then maybe some of 841-850 can be withdrawn

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Maybe cancelling the 275 will free up some single deckers to go to ECB and then maybe some of 841-850 can be withdrawn

Maybe they could go on the 106/139? the 140 seems to be primarily double decker now, I usually see this route being very busy

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Maybe cancelling the 275 will free up some single deckers to go to ECB and then maybe some of 841-850 can be withdrawn

I think it’ll ultimately free up 186-190 but they could stay for now so that LC can start the repaints.

 

[CraigLockhart]

I know this will be controversial but there needs to a massive overhaul of the routes in general. Change the mindset that one bus can take me from penicuik to silverknowes for instance. The routes were designed from a different time when congestion wasn't an issue. Remove the barrier to switching between buses with a transfer ticket. Smaller buses to serve estates that connect with high frequency buses on the arterial routes. Less duplication of services on the arterial routes.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I know this will be controversial but there needs to a massive overhaul of the routes in general. Change the mindset that one bus can take me from penicuik to silverknowes for instance. The routes were designed from a different time when congestion wasn't an issue. Remove the barrier to switching between buses with a transfer ticket. Smaller buses to serve estates that connect with high frequency buses on the arterial routes. Less duplication of services on the arterial routes.

I don’t think that’s controversial at all. The entire network does need a re-think. As the years go on more and more new urban villages are going to appear so it will eventually get to a point where it needs to be ripped up and started again.

There’s some things I still wouldn’t touch but if I’m honest that is now a much lower number than it was 10 years ago.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm surprised that it's the 275 that is being axed, i would've expected the 276 to go instead. These changes do generally leave the West Lothian network quite bare compared to how it was and there's a few corridors that Lothian had attacked in the past that they're clearly not going for anymore. Notably Livingston - Broxburn and Livingston - Blackburn.

Glad to see the return of the X5 and the increasing in frequency of the 30, the cuts to the 22 also come as no surprise. If anything i won't be surprised if further down the line the 22 gets axed entirely and other services along the same corridors (such as the 1 and 2) get a slight increase in it's place or a new route is created instead. Once the tram extension is open running the 22 as it is from the Gyle Centre to Ocean Terminal really won't make much sense at all.

I know this will be controversial but there needs to a massive overhaul of the routes in general. Change the mindset that one bus can take me from penicuik to silverknowes for instance. The routes were designed from a different time when congestion wasn't an issue. Remove the barrier to switching between buses with a transfer ticket. Smaller buses to serve estates that connect with high frequency buses on the arterial routes. Less duplication of services on the arterial routes.

I agree, i also think there needs to be more cohesion between services where they share corridors. Just look at the 37 and 47 for example, in most other cities these routes would be combined to some extent as different variations of the same service and would be timed consistently. Instead at present you have a 37 operating up to a 15 minute frequency and a 47 operating up to every 20 minutes.

Another example is the western legs of the 26 and 31, both routes operate every 12 minutes and are timed to provide a 6 minute frequency over the shared sections of route, this is really something that should be advertised, yet it isn't. In fact in the past i have found that lots of people don't even realise you can get the 31 to the Zoo!

I actually think both examples listed highlight cases where route branding could actually be very beneficial. I'm not saying they're perfect examples or how Lothian should follow but just look at what First Glasgow did with The One or the 38, they brought multiple existing routes under one brand that provide a consistent high frequency over a shared corridor.