Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[ScotRail158725]

1026/1030 now at East Coast with 1025/1027 back at Marine

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Lothian should treat all employees in the same job equally, unless there is a specific reason as to why they get paid more in the city than in East Lothian or West Lothian, I don’t see why they should get treated differently.

Agreed 100%, ECB and LCB travel longer or equal distances than Lothian (especially if they are travelling to the likes of Midlothian) so they should have equal amount of pay.

Surprised there hasn't been a strike of some kind demanding equal pay amongst the different services.

 

[Theproinsider]

We aren't.. we are just saying they should all deserve equal pay because they all work under the same company and should reel in the same benefits!

But they're working for subsidiary companies. It's a subtle difference.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

But they're working for subsidiary companies. It's a subtle difference.

I can't tell if you're justifying it or being realistic, honestly. Regardless, Lothian is advertised as being one big family so they should all pay the same. The drivers in each other's sector work no doubt the same amount of hours as the Lothian City drivers, so they should be treated the same in that regard, and it would be a better incentive to work with LCB if they paid the same because I can imagine they still need drivers in West Lothian.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I can't tell if you're justifying it or being realistic, honestly. Regardless, Lothian is advertised as being one big family so they should all pay the same. The drivers in each other's sector work no doubt the same amount of hours as the Lothian City drivers, so they should be treated the same in that regard, and it would be a better incentive to work with LCB if they paid the same because I can imagine they still need drivers in West Lothian.

It was discussed a while ago whether City drivers had an easier job than rural drivers and I think the conclusion was that slightly different skills were needed but overall the difficulty was the same.
So going by that conclusion I'd say they ought to all be paid the same and have the same employment and working conditions.

 

[Cesarcollie]

It was discussed a while ago whether City drivers had an easier job than rural drivers and I think the conclusion was that slightly different skills were needed but overall the difficulty was the same.
So going by that conclusion I'd say they ought to all be paid the same and have the same employment and working conditions.

so then the Lothian Country and ECB will end up with fare hikes and/or reduced network, as the revenue earned by these operations is less than the city. Take your pick!

 

[buslad1988]

I can't tell if you're justifying it or being realistic, honestly. Regardless, Lothian is advertised as being one big family so they should all pay the same. The drivers in each other's sector work no doubt the same amount of hours as the Lothian City drivers, so they should be treated the same in that regard, and it would be a better incentive to work with LCB if they paid the same because I can imagine they still need drivers in West Lothian.

If that’s the case then expect a reduced network across the board. That’s simply unachievable. The whole point of starting Lothian Country was that it was a relatively low cost operation to set up.

 

[Simon75]

Lothian Country was formed from buying part of First Scotland East which would have have different pay, terms and conditions than Lothian?

 

[stevenedin]

Lothian Country was formed from buying part of First Scotland East which would have have different pay, terms and conditions than Lothian?

It’s confusing i think you are correct. In East Lothian there was

-East Lothian Buses (Edinburgh Shuttle registered)
-Renamed Lothian Country Buses (registered name Lothian Country Buses Ltd)
-East Coast Buses Ltd was formed as a new company which purchased part of First Scotland East (the East Lothian operation)

Lothiancountry is a new name formed for service 43 & X43 within Edinburgh as they couldn’t use Lothian brand as they wanted to charge more money. They then expanded in 2018 to West Lothian and I think this operation uses the Lothian Country Buses Ltd company which was originally in East Lothian?

Correct me if I’m wrong with any of this.

I think that it makes sense to move all operations to Lothian Country but it could be due to the uncertainty of the West Lothian part specifically. I guess that they could do what they do in Glasgow and name East Coast Buses as Lothian Country No 1 Ltd and the West Lothian operations as Lothian Country No 2 Ltd and all trade as Lothiancountry.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I think that it makes sense to move all operations to Lothian Country but it could be due to the uncertainty of the West Lothian part specifically. I guess that they could do what they do in Glasgow and name East Coast Buses as Lothian Country No 1 Ltd and the West Lothian operations as Lothian Country No 2 Ltd and all trade as Lothiancountry.

While good for the passenger, what could potentially happen here is that you’ll need to sort out the Terms for staff that differentiate between the two, and it’s quite a lot.

You also risk the potential of Traffic Commissioner intervention, which while possible is probably far less likely than it was before.

It’s not impossible to do, but it’s not really simple.

 

[Vectron383]

999 on the 1 today

 

[LothianBusesPh]

999 on the 1 today

That's very different to what it's usually on, that being a Service 100, of course.

 

[scosutsut]

I think that it makes sense to move all operations to Lothian Country but it could be due to the uncertainty of the West Lothian part specifically. I guess that they could do what they do in Glasgow and name East Coast Buses as Lothian Country No 1 Ltd and the West Lothian operations as Lothian Country No 2 Ltd and all trade as Lothiancountry.

I can't see it, no customer benefit. Network map and zone names would be an absolute mess and it throws away the goodwill built up behind the name East Coast Buses.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

It’s getting closer to the service changes. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what buses may move around?

The only suggestions I’ve thought so far that seem likely is that 176-190 will all end up at Marine. I’m hopeful that 1152-1153 will return to service as well.

 

[Jordan1296]

999 on the 1 today

It was out on the 1 on Monday too. 997 is on the 7 today too.

 

[Bus9120UK]

It was out on the 1 on Monday too. 997 is on the 7 today too.

999 has been out on the 1 for the last 2 and a half months now.

 

[computerSaysNo]

999 has been out on the 1 for the last 2 and a half months now.

It still doesn't track though so the only way to know if it is out, and if so what route it is on, is by being out and happening to see it.

 

[roadierway77]

It still doesn't track though so the only way to know if it is out, and if so what route it is on, is by being out and happening to see it.

You can also get a rough idea by comparing the number of vehicles tracking on the route with the usual vehicle requirement e.g. if a route requires 8 vehicles but only 7 are tracking, it's possible that 999 or 997 are out on that service.

 

[Dave2105]

With the freeing up of deckers with the 48 becoming single deck, 25 frequency reductions and the 49 being cut back to the hospital, could one of the current single decker routes, apart from the 30 and 38, be converted to double deck operation?

 

[stevenedin]

With the freeing up of deckers with the 48 becoming single deck, 25 frequency reductions and the 49 being cut back to the hospital, could one of the current single decker routes, apart from the 30 and 38, be converted to double deck operation?

I reckon the only route worthwhile upgrading would be the 1 especially since the 22 will no longer go to Princes Street east end and a lot of people from Stenhouse/west side of Whitson will use the bus rather than the Tram.

 

[Bus9120UK]

I reckon the only route worthwhile upgrading would be the 1 especially since the 22 will no longer go to Princes Street east end and a lot of people from Stenhouse/west side of Whitson will use the bus rather than the Tram.

If there weren't a frequency upgrade, i'd agree. First I'd like to see how it performs with the improved frequency before considering deckers.

 

[Scotrail88]

With the upcoming changes, do we know overall PVR change and if an increase or decrease?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I’ve thought so far that seem likely is that 176-190 will all end up at Marine.

Apparently they are meant to be used on the 46/48 from what I've heard from sources.

 

[stevenedin]

187 was out on the 2 today.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Apparently they are meant to be used on the 46/48 from what I've heard from sources.

I was aware of that already, hence why I put that forward as a realistic suggestion. It’s more what outside of that that will be interesting, such as the inevitable movement of some 7900’s.

 

[Bus9120UK]

With the upcoming changes, do we know overall PVR change and if an increase or decrease?

Daytime PVRs now and after changes (does not include extra peak buses including express services):
Service 1: 8 -> 11 (+3)
Service 2: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 3: 18 -> 19/20 (+1/2 - dependent on layover length)
Service 4: 8 -> 9 (+1)
Service 5: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 7: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 8/9: 7 -> 13 (+6) - I've merged these in one due to them being combined for the northern end of the route
Service 10: 7 -> 7 (+0)
Service 11: 13 -> 13 (+0)
Service 12: 6 -> 6 (+0)
Service 14: 9 -> 8 (-1)
Service 15: 2 -> 2 (+0)
Service 16: 16 -> 16 (+0)
Service 19: 8 -> 10 (+2)
Service 21: 14 -> 14 (+0)
Service 22: 5 -> 6 (+1)
Service 23: 6 -> 6 (+0)
Service 24: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 25: 17 -> 14 (-3)
Service 26: 24 -> 24 (+0)
Service 27: 7 -> 7/8 (+0/1 - dependent on layover length)
Service 29: 10 -> 10 (+0)
Service 30: 21 -> 18 (-3)
Service 31: 12 -> 12 (+0)
Service 33: 9 -> 9 (+0)
Service 34: 9 -> 9 (+0)
Service 35: 8 -> 9 (+1)
Service 36: 6 -> 7 (+1)
Service 37: Unsure due to shorter bush runs, should stay the same
Service 38: 5 -> 5 (+0)
Service 41: 7 -> 0 (-7)
Service 44: 18 -> 18 (+0)
Service 45: 6 -> 5 (-1)
Service 46/8: 5 -> 13 (+8) (-5 deckers + 13 singles)
Service 47: 10 -> 11 (+1)
Service 49: 13 -> 9 (-4)
Service 100: 9 -> 9 (+0)
Service 200: 4 -> 4 (+0)
Service 400: 6 -> 7 (+1)

A total PVR increase of 9 (or 7 assuming the two mentioned routes have a short layover)
Single deckers increase by 11, deckers reduce by 2 (or 4 assuming the two mentioned routes have a short layover)
This is under the assumption that the 37 isn't changing PVR.

Please be reminded this only includes daytime services and no peak runs nor night/express buses.

 

[roadierway77]

Daytime PVRs now and after changes (does not include extra peak buses including express services):
Service 1: 8 -> 11 (+3)
Service 2: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 3: 19 -> 19/20 (+0/1 - dependent on layover length)
Service 4: 8 -> 9 (+1)
Service 5: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 7: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 8/9: 7 -> 13 (+6) - I've merged these in one due to them being combined for the northern end of the route
Service 10: 7 -> 7 (+0)
Service 11: 13 -> 13 (+0)
Service 12: 6 -> 6 (+0)
Service 14: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 15: 2 -> 2 (+0)
Service 16: 15 -> 16 (+1)
Service 19: 8 -> 10 (+2)
Service 21: 14 -> 14 (+0)
Service 22: 5 -> 6 (+1)
Service 23: 6 -> 6 (+0)
Service 24: 8 -> 8 (+0)
Service 25: 14 -> 13 (-1)
Service 26: 24 -> 24 (+0)
Service 27: 7 -> 7/8 (+0/1 - dependent on layover length)
Service 29: 10 -> 10 (+0)
Service 30: 22 -> 18 (-4)
Service 31: 12 -> 12 (+0)
Service 33: 9 -> 9 (+0)
Service 34: 9 -> 9 (+0)
Service 35: 8 -> 9 (+1)
Service 36: 6 -> 7 (+1)
Service 37: Unsure due to shorter bush runs, should stay the same
Service 38: 5 -> 5 (+0)
Service 41: 7 -> 0 (-7)
Service 44: 18 -> 18 (+0)
Service 45: 6 -> 5 (-1)
Service 46/8: 5 -> 13 (+8) (-5 deckers + 13 singles)
Service 47: 10 -> 11 (+1)
Service 49: 13 -> 9 (-4)
Service 100: 9 -> 9 (+0)
Service 200: 4 -> 4 (+0)
Service 400: 7 -> 7 (+0)

A total PVR increase of 10 (or 8 assuming the two mentioned routes have a short layover)
Single deckers increase by 12, deckers reduce by 2 (or 4 assuming the two mentioned routes have a short layover)
This is under the assumption that the 37 isn't changing PVR.

Please be reminded this only includes daytime services and no peak runs nor night/express buses.

I believe the daytime requirements for the 3, 11, 14, 16, 25, 30 and 400 are currently 18, 14, 9, 16, 16, 21 and 6 respectively though I'm happy to be corrected.

 

[Acfb]

Seems to be a lot of fuss over the 41 changes in the evening news presumably mainly from people in Cramond and Davidsons Mains.

I think the thing people have forgotten about though is the future pedestrianisation of George St so it was probably inevitable the 41 would get changed sooner or later.

 

[jb66]

Just seen that Facebook, I don't think it's that big a deal the 41 being replaced!

 

[stevenedin]

Just seen that Facebook, I don't think it's that big a deal the 41 being replaced!

The only issue I can see is that people no longer have a link to The Mound, George IV Bridge or Princes Street