Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Blindtraveler]

The idea I posted above wasn't meant to do anything significant with journey time but was primarily designed to solve capacity where needed, the 16 often requires relief in the mornings on the North Edinburgh stretches and given the council's desire to make people use the tram having it pick up only between Edinburgh college and the tram and then again pick up only from commercial Street to surgeons hall wood do this, same for the reverse in the evenings. Trip time would be no quicker but would help certainly segregate a few of the passengers currently being left behind and mean that the long distance 49 in particular isn't running hopelessly late by nine o'clock and having to be spun around early to get the diagrams back to normal

 

[Siemens Trains]

The idea I posted above wasn't meant to do anything significant with journey time but was primarily designed to solve capacity where needed, the 16 often requires relief in the mornings on the North Edinburgh stretches and given the council's desire to make people use the tram having it pick up only between Edinburgh college and the tram and then again pick up only from commercial Street to surgeons hall wood do this, same for the reverse in the evenings. Trip time would be no quicker but would help certainly segregate a few of the passengers currently being left behind and mean that the long distance 49 in particular isn't running hopelessly late by nine o'clock and having to be spun around early to get the diagrams back to normal

I know the public quite like this model, often citing 'common sense', but it's not really the way to make best use of resources and is a bit unfair. There's no incentive attracting passengers onto the limited stop bus, so you just end up with a normal bus that observes fewer stops. It's effectively the same situation mentioned above where passengers are unable to board at their chosen stop. But this time people find it more frustrating because there is spare capacity on the bus that can't stop.

Then a service that does observe the stop appears, only for the driver to refuse boarding because it's full up.

 

[computerSaysNo]

In my opinion Lothian needs to get past its "all buses always run full-route" obsession. Does the 16 need 5 buses an hour at Silverknowes and Torphin? Cut the frequency at the extremities slightly and run more journeys in the centre where people are being left behind.
I think this will all be solved by the council's Network Review but who knows when that's going to conclude.

 

[smsm1]

In my opinion Lothian needs to get past its "all buses always run full-route" obsession. Does the 16 need 5 buses an hour at Silverknowes and Torphin? Cut the frequency at the extremities slightly and run more journeys in the centre where people are being left behind.
I think this will all be solved by the council's Network Review but who knows when that's going to conclude.

The problem with reducing the frequency on the extremities of the routes is that it makes it more complex as passengers need to be aware of the destination and discourages bus use through longer waiting times to get to the destination. To get people out of their cars need higher frequencies in the suburbs otherwise you end up with more congestion. Need a way to encourage more journeys avoiding the city centre.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Has someone who until 8 months ago lived two stops from an extremity of the 16 if they took one out during the middle of the day it resulted in the next one usually being pretty busy and therefore observing pretty much every stop so absolutely incapable of making up any lost time, not at all uncommon for them to be late starting from the terminus due to whatever kind of hell had broken loose on the outward journey

I don't hold out a great deal of hope for the councils network review, any changes made will like everything else Edinburgh cancel does prioritize visitors and students and so whilst you might see 20,000 buses an hour to some of the college and university campuses and lots of buses to the city centre it does not hold out much hope for normal everyday bus passengers who just want to get to the doctors and the supermarkets and work and less of course your work happens to be in the city centre or at one of the academia institutions

 

[zjsptgzxyspks]

It’s not just central campus causing problems. The 9 is so full between bristo square and kings buildings that not a single service between 8:30 and 10am has stopped at my local stop even though there are people there every time.
This is alongside the Uni shuttle bus which frequently leaves 15-20+ people behind at bristo square.
Could the AM and PM shuttles possibly be up gauged to XLBs?
Have had to resort to walking 10min to Newington to take a bus towards Kings buildings which aren’t much emptier.
It’s only slightly better leaving kings in the evening.

The 9 does need an increased frequency between 9-10. Probably the buses coming off the express services or the extra 38s can do a journey on it. The 8:00 extra 38 from Longstone can run a decker though as it is always packed all the way up to Kings, and that decker can go to service 9 since it is pretty useless running straight back to Longstone afterwards.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The 9 does need an increased frequency between 9-10. Probably the buses coming off the express services or the extra 38s can do a journey on it. The 8:00 extra 38 from Longstone can run a decker though as it is always packed all the way up to Kings, and that decker can go to service 9 since it is pretty useless running straight back to Longstone afterwards.

Surely the 9 needs extra buses from the City to King’s Buildings in the morning and less so the other way?

For context all morning journeys on the X26, X29 and X33 already go onto other services. There’s only a single X31 (the last one) that goes light back to Central. There’s also two X37’s (the first and second ones) which go light back to Marine and Central respectively. The last X44 also runs light back to Marine. A lot of these later journeys aren’t going to be much use and the X37’s are as good as useless due to them terminating at Granton, so you’ve really only got two potential options.

I don’t think the Uni Shuttle is working either at the moment. That could do with a third bus being added in the busy times. Before anyone asks, no XLB’s are not an option as it’s run from Marine. The 9 again cannot use XLB’s on most runs as they interwork with the 8’s at various points during the morning and evening, but some buses don’t interwork between the two routes at all.

 

[bobdoe]

It’s not just central campus causing problems. The 9 is so full between bristo square and kings buildings that not a single service between 8:30 and 10am has stopped at my local stop even though there are people there every time.
This is alongside the Uni shuttle bus which frequently leaves 15-20+ people behind at bristo square.
Could the AM and PM shuttles possibly be up gauged to XLBs?
Have had to resort to walking 10min to Newington to take a bus towards Kings buildings which aren’t much emptier.
It’s only slightly better leaving kings in the evening.

Was this a common thing with the 41 before the 9 replaced it?

 

[Baileygirl]

Has someone who until 8 months ago lived two stops from an extremity of the 16 if they took one out during the middle of the day it resulted in the next one usually being pretty busy and therefore observing pretty much every stop so absolutely incapable of making up any lost time, not at all uncommon for them to be late starting from the terminus due to whatever kind of hell had broken loose on the outward journey

I don't hold out a great deal of hope for the councils network review, any changes made will like everything else Edinburgh cancel does prioritize visitors and students and so whilst you might see 20,000 buses an hour to some of the college and university campuses and lots of buses to the city centre it does not hold out much hope for normal everyday bus passengers who just want to get to the doctors and the supermarkets and work and less of course your work happens to be in the city centre or at one of the academia institutions

The council network review is for their contracted services (13, 20, 63, 68 etc) not the commercial Lothian Buses services.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

The council network review is for their contracted services (13, 20, 63, 68 etc) not the commercial Lothian Buses services.

I don't see the 13 changing anytime soon, maybe we can hope if the 20 and 63 will transfer over to LCB, I'm sure the 20 would fit well with the X40 in Wester Hailes and the 63 would compliment the 43 in Queensferry along with the 72 in Kirkliston.

 

[computerSaysNo]

The council network review is for their contracted services (13, 20, 63, 68 etc) not the commercial Lothian Buses services.

Oh. I was under the impression that it was to affect all services within the council area with the aim to reduce the number of buses using Princes Street and reduce the complexity of the bus network in general. Is this definitely wrong then?
I did search the council website a while ago and couldn't find any reference to the review at all; the only information I have about it is what has been previously posted on this forum.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Oh. I was under the impression that it was to affect all services within the council area with the aim to reduce the number of buses using Princes Street and reduce the complexity of the bus network in general. Is this definitely wrong then?
I did search the council website a while ago and couldn't find any reference to the review at all; the only information I have about it is what has been previously posted on this forum.

I think they're talking at cross purposes. City of Edinburgh Council have a review of the bus network in their Implementation document for the City Mobility Plan. This is aimed at improving interchanges, which means the council aim to persuade operators to turf passengers off services short of Princes St so they can walk, wheel, cycle, scoot or use the tram for onward travel. This is a long term goal, fitting with an objective to remove vehicles from the city centre. Perhaps 2027 to 2030 timescale.
In parallel the council need to re-tender the rural west Edinburgh contract(s) (for 20, 63 and 68, previously let as a single package) mainly because the cycle is coming to an end within the next few months but also because McGill's are unable to resource the routes.

 

[Volvodart]

McGills contract came to an end in August but they agreed to continue until the Council review happened and new contracts were awarded.

 

[Auld reekie]

Is it unusual to se ex London buses on the 44 route as there was one on the route today?

 

[Bus9120UK]

Is it unusual to se ex London buses on the 44 route as there was one on the route today?

It's becoming a more common occurrence as of late. Not sure if they really are the best option for it, especially as it's often the double door ones that appear on it. Capacity is very important on the 44.

 

[Lothianbus703]

Is it unusual to se ex London buses on the 44 route as there was one on the route today?

It was unusual up until recently where 1 or 2 have been appearing.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Is it unusual to se ex London buses on the 44 route as there was one on the route today?

I saw 2 yesterday on it. It’s possibly down to the fact the mmc’s are getting MOT’d at the moment and it’s simply cover vehicles. The choice of an ex London though is somewhat questionable.

 

[Darklord8899]

The ex-London's periodically appear on the 3 as well *grimacing face emoji* again, a questionable choice

 

[VioletEclipse]

The ex-Londons may only be slightly shorter than the other deckers in the fleet, but - and I say this from experience - it's very much noticeable that an ex-London on a busy service at peak times which is normally operated by a longer bus can mean the difference between getting a seat and standing. Obviously it's still much better than no bus, but ex-Londons on busy services at peak times is certainly questionable.

 

[Surreyman]

Scottish Bus Emission Abatement Retrofit Fund | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

I note that the "BEAR phase 5 (round 1) includes 18 vehicles for Lothian (cost £1,735,650) for upgrade, any idea which vehicles are being upgraded?

 

[Auld reekie]

The ex-Londons may only be slightly shorter than the other deckers in the fleet, but - and I say this from experience - it's very much noticeable that an ex-London on a busy service at peak times which is normally operated by a longer bus can mean the difference between getting a seat and standing. Obviously it's still much better than no bus, but ex-Londons on busy services at peak times is certainly questionable.

I totally agree with this.
The exit doors seem to take a long time to close which made the journey appear to take forever.

 

[ScotRail158725]

In my opinion Lothian needs to get past its "all buses always run full-route" obsession.

What on earth. 99% of routes run full route all the time

Does the 16 need 5 buses an hour at Silverknowes and Torphin? Cut the frequency at the extremities slightly and run more journeys in the centre where people are being left behind.

This just isn’t practical in the real world. Especially the 16 as an example one of Lothians busiest routes

 

[computerSaysNo]

What on earth. 99% of routes run full route all the time

What I mean is if there is only a small section of a route overcrowded then only that section should get more buses on it (in an environment where driver availablity is limited). You could double the frequency of a small section in the city centre using the same number of vehicles and drivers as you'd use if you increased a whole route by a single "chunk" (e.g. every 15 minutes up to every 12 minutes), but you'd benefit many more people (all the people being left behind at those stops vs a limited number of extra people using the slightly enhanced frequency).

 

[CN04NRJ]

What I mean is if there is only a small section of a route overcrowded then only that section should get more buses on it (in an environment where driver availablity is limited). You could double the frequency of a small section in the city centre using the same number of vehicles and drivers as you'd use if you increased a whole route by a single "chunk" (e.g. every 15 minutes up to every 12 minutes), but you'd benefit many more people (all the people being left behind at those stops vs a limited number of extra people using the slightly enhanced frequency).

I really think there could be some kind of city centre circular, there's large amounts of passenger traffic between Leith Walk, Princes St to the Bridges (and vice versa) - you can have a full bus from Leith St and be almost empty by Newington Road. During the festival this left people wanting to go on further with the 7/14/49 being left behind at South Bridge.

It'll probably never happen for various reasons (people would probably just use whatever bus google tells them to) but some kind of shuttle service/circular would theoretically help on the overcrowded short sections.

 

[Lx008]

I really think there could be some kind of city centre circular, there's large amounts of passenger traffic between Leith Walk, Princes St to the Bridges (and vice versa) - you can have a full bus from Leith St and be almost empty by Newington Road. During the festival this left people wanting to go on further with the 7/14/49 being left behind at South Bridge.

It'll probably never happen for various reasons (people would probably just use whatever bus google tells them to) but some kind of shuttle service/circular would theoretically help on the overcrowded short sections.

2 circulars/shuttles might not be a bad idea
1 would take the route of the 14 from foot of the walk to commie pool and turn onto Newington and follow the 7s route back to foot of the walk.
The other would mirror a section of the 3 from Bernard place to haymarket

 

[Siemens Trains]

2 circulars/shuttles might not be a bad idea
1 would take the route of the 14 from foot of the walk to commie pool and turn onto Newington and follow the 7s route back to foot of the walk.
The other would mirror a section of the 3 from Bernard place to haymarket

For the Leith Walk & Newington example the 7 and 14 routes are already reasonably short, serving quite useful termini, so it might make more sense just to strengthen these. Between Newington and Haymarket the 3 is joined by the 31, 33 and all except the Atholl Crescent area is covered by the 30 and 37 as well. Passengers have quite a wide choice at the moment so I can't see a separately numbered but almost identical route being a magic bullet.
Short workings are sometimes helpful to address crowding and definitely have their place but timetabling complications can mean they often just run empty. In years gone by the Festival season would see extra 41s between the city centre and Blackhall theoretically running in between the timetabled 41. But of course the normal bus would be delayed by 10-15 minutes anyway, and nobody would deliberately wait for the short working service. This often resulted in the normal bus being equally busy as before leaving the extra one lightly loaded.
I fully understand the frustrations with crowding and being unable to board the only service that goes to your desired destination because it is filled with passengers who had a choice of buses. However I wonder if these types of suggestions for new routes or shuttle buses may be better suited to the 'speculative ideas' thread rather than discussions on Lothian's normal services.

 

[danielhogg2005]

Timetables for the X40 and probably the 72 as well have appeared in bus stops. I noticed the X40 ones at the Westside Plaza today.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Timetables for the X40 and probably the 72 as well have appeared in bus stops. I noticed the X40 ones at the Westside Plaza today.

Bet the locals have been pretty shocked/surprised to see them if they haven't heard the news months ago. Hope this will encourage folk to use the new services when they launch.

Any idea if they started building a bus stop at Clovenstone Roundabout heading towards Westside Plaza? it'll be the first time in forever since they had a bus route run down that way.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Any idea if they started building a bus stop at Clovenstone Roundabout heading towards Westside Plaza? it'll be the first time in forever since they had a bus route run down that way.

I suspect they will just dump a temporary stop for now, but a stop is being added.

 

[stevenedin]

Bet the locals have been pretty shocked/surprised to see them if they haven't heard the news months ago. Hope this will encourage folk to use the new services when they launch.

Any idea if they started building a bus stop at Clovenstone Roundabout heading towards Westside Plaza? it'll be the first time in forever since they had a bus route run down that way.

I hope so too. It could bring in a whole new lot of passengers from Wester Hailes to Livingston and also a faster link to the Royal Infirmary from there. I’m really looking forward to it.