Lower Speed Limits Will Make Bus Travel Less Desirable

[Envoy]

Lower speed limits will make bus journeys slower and therefore less desirable. They will also add to costs in fuel and crew as you will need more buses & staff to provide the same frequency of service if the buses are running slower.

Professor Stuart Cole has written an interesting article in Nation Cymru regarding this issue.

The unseen cost of Wales' new 20 mph speed limit

Professor Stuart Cole, CBE, Emeritus Professor of Transport Economics and Policy, University of South Wales. From September 17th the Welsh Government 20-mph default speed limit replaces, in urban areas, the current 30-mph. The change means there are cost implications on logistics and bus...

nation.cymru

"From September 17th the Welsh Government 20-mph default speed limit replaces, in urban areas, the current 30-mph.

The change means there are cost implications on logistics and bus operators through increased drivers’ hours and less efficient vehicle operation with vehicles operating at lower speeds".

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes, Cardiff Bus and Newport Transport have cited the reduced speed limits when announcing service changes (reductions) from September 3rd. I haven't heard anything about First in Swansea, Stagecoach in the Valleys, Adventure Travel or the independents, nor anything in the north.

My journey from home to Newport City centre currently takes 25m off-peak M-F. From September 4 it will take about 35m on NT bus as my nearest stop will no longer be served. Fortunately Stagecoach will still serve the stop but that means the frequency will be cut from 2 to 1 bus per hour.

 

[Snow1964]

They have done it in parts of London too

Bus frequencies have been cut as journeys take longer and they can't afford extra drivers and vehicles to compensate.

Road deaths and serious injuries have not really changed (there are still idiots that drive). 2/3 the speed doesn't result in 2/3 the deaths.

Minor collisions are up. Although the figures are difficult to get publicly because they are unreliable as many minor bumps don't get reported. The biggest clue is TfL only ever selectively say that they aim to reduce deaths and serious casualties, they never say it has done so, and also never say that it has reduced accidents.

It's very difficult to determine the effect on pollution as other measures are changing (ULEZ) and the general replacement of older vehicles. However virtually no cars are geared to cruise at 32km/h (20mph) so it probably results in lower gear being used.

 

[Titfield]

As the change has yet to take effect how can anyone say with certainty what the benefits and disbenefits will be?

 

[90019]

As the change has yet to take effect how can anyone say with certainty what the benefits and disbenefits will be?

Because it's already been done elsewhere.

 

[InOban]

How many buses manage to exceed 20mph in urban areas?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How many buses manage to exceed 20mph in urban areas?

Plenty of them outside of town/city centres.

 

[nw1]

If 20mph limits mean less frequent bus services due to increased costs, people shouldn't be afraid of critiquing them. Or, the governments who introduce them should be required to financially compensate bus companies to cover the costs.

 

[WestAnglian]

Plenty of them outside of town/city centres.

Yes, but the speed limit proposals are for urban areas.

 

[Dai Corner]

If 20mph limits mean less frequent bus services due to increased costs, people shouldn't be afraid of critiquing them. Or, the governments who introduce them should be required to financially compensate bus companies to cover the costs.

The Welsh Government are cutting support for bus services next month,.

This is despite Lee Waters, deputy Minister for Climate Change (including transport) telling a conference that a pound spent on subsidising buses achieves a greater reduction in CO2 emissions than one spent on railways or active travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, but the speed limit proposals are for urban areas.

No "but". @InOban argued that buses rarely reach 20mph anyway. In town centres that's true, but in the suburbs (where it'll still be 20) it's not, 30 is easily reached, particularly on longer stretches between stops. As such, the argument is incorrect - it will slow operation outside of the town centre.

 

[Dai Corner]

No "but". @InOban argued that buses rarely reach 20mph anyway. In town centres that's true, but in the suburbs (where it'll still be 20) it's not, 30 is easily reached, particularly on longer stretches between stops. As such, the argument is incorrect - it will slow operation outside of the town centre.

Especially electric buses with their superior acceleration. Indeed they need to do 30mph to keep on time.

 

[mb88]

My own experience of areas where blanket 20mph zones have been introduced has been that operators have not made the necessary adjustments to the timings of their services. This results in two categories of bus driver. Ones that (rightly) stick to the 20mph limit and therefore run late all the time, and ones that don’t stick to the limit in order to ‘chase the time’. With drivers in general, I have found those that did 40mph in a 30 zone, continue to do 40 when it is reduced to 20. Two things need to happen: enforcement of the 20 limit by the police, who don’t have the resources to do so. And increased running times by bus operators, who don’t have the resources to do so.

 

[rcro]

I think there’s an assumption here that the 20mph limit will only apply to residential streets. Based on where the signs are going up, and the website that shows where the changes will be - it also includes wide artery roads with few houses fronting on to them.

Using Newport as an example - Risca Road, Bassaleg Road, Cardiff Road will all be 20mph. A bit further out of town Caerphilly Road (A468) will be 20mph through most of Rhiwderin. A Newport-Caerphilly bus (12 miles?) could easily take 10 minutes longer each way despite over half the distance being non-urban.

It’s a bit hard to justify to a pro-pedestrian/cyclist/bus road user like me, so I’m assuming it’ll be really unpopular with general motorists when they realise how it’s being implemented.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My own experience of areas where blanket 20mph zones have been introduced has been that operators have not made the necessary adjustments to the timings of their services. This results in two categories of bus driver. Ones that (rightly) stick to the 20mph limit and therefore run late all the time, and ones that don’t stick to the limit in order to ‘chase the time’. With drivers in general, I have found those that did 40mph in a 30 zone, continue to do 40 when it is reduced to 20. Two things need to happen: enforcement of the 20 limit by the police, who don’t have the resources to do so. And increased running times by bus operators, who don’t have the resources to do so.

It often seems like timetables by many bus operators are based on the office junior ragging round non-stop in their Citroen Saxo, not actual operating conditions. So this doesn't surprise me one iota.

I think there’s an assumption here that the 20mph limit will only apply to residential streets. Based on where the signs are going up, and the website that shows where the changes will be - it also includes wide artery roads with few houses fronting on to them.

It's any road that's currently 30 by virtue of having street lighting unless a special order has been put in place to up it to 30 (which is a costly process, so it won't be done often).

It’s a bit hard to justify to a pro-pedestrian/cyclist/bus road user like me, so I’m assuming it’ll be really unpopular with general motorists when they realise how it’s being implemented.

I suspect a lot of people don't realise how extensive it is.

 

[nw1]

The Welsh Government are cutting support for bus services next month,.

This is despite Lee Waters, deputy Minister for Climate Change (including transport) telling a conference that a pound spent on subsidising buses achieves a greater reduction in CO2 emissions than one spent on railways or active travel.

So they're introducing speed limits which will make buses more expensive to operate - and cutting support. Nice.

It’s a bit hard to justify to a pro-pedestrian/cyclist/bus road user like me, so I’m assuming it’ll be really unpopular with general motorists when they realise how it’s being implemented.

And that might be what actually saves the bus user - in that motorist pressure might well lead to it being scrapped on arterial roads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And that might be what actually saves the bus user - in that motorist pressure might well lead to it being scrapped on arterial roads.

It is possible to sign the limit up to 30 via a Traffic Restriction Order. I suspect if particular arterial roads are an issue and don't have many houses on them that's exactly what will happen.

 

[Dai Corner]

It is possible to sign the limit up to 30 via a Traffic Restriction Order. I suspect if particular arterial roads are an issue and don't have many houses on them that's exactly what will happen.

That's what seems to be happening in Newport. It's very obvious where limits will change as the signs were erected some time ago and covered over.

Unfortunately the main arterial roads like Cardiff Road, Chepstow Road and Caerleon Road have houses for most of their lengths.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's what seems to be happening in Newport. It's very obvious where limits will change as the signs were erected some time ago and covered over.

I did notice driving up the A5 a few weeks ago that it appears it's been done around Llangollen too, so at least some thought has gone into it. Unlike for instance that village in Scotland on the road from the motorway to Edinburgh where the limit drops from 60 to 20 in one go, which is against guidelines.

 

[HSTEd]

My own experience is that buses in Manchester regularly manage to exceed 20mph, although the average speed is far lower because of the inordinant amount of time boarding and deboarding.

A 20mph limit will substantially lengthen journey times, as it has already started doing as 20mph zones are sprouting like mushrooms.

 

[Mwanesh]

I am dreading to think what it will do to the bus service. Looking at services like the 151 from Blackwood to Newport it will be greatly affected. The only non-20mph section will be the section from McDonald's to The Chapel of rest off the A467. The X24 from Varteg terminus to Cwmbran is another that goes via the 20miles per hour zone.

 

[geoffk]

On the BBC news just now it was suggested that Scotland will follow suit. England however seems to be going in the opposite direction, with Commons leader and Coronation sword-wielder Penny Mordaunt describing the default 20 limit as "insane" .I too would be concerned at the effect on bus services should a change of Government bring this policy to England. I'm thinking of routes in the Pennines near my former home area, similar in some ways to the South Wales valleys with development along most of the route - Halifax to Rochdale via Todmorden comes to mind.

Interesting that, when I passed my driving test in 1967, my instructor told me 30 mph was an outdated limit, going back to the time when vehicle brakes were much less efficient!