Luggage on trains… bikes now take priority?

[jon0844]

I can only imagine how bad the Class 720s are when people have large bags and bikes and can't move through the train to find another place to put them. Sure, you have more seats and I reluctantly accept that at peak times people may well squeeze into the 3 seats, but the class 700 layout with fewer seats allows people to board the 'wrong' coach and move along to the right area.. bikes, buggies, even wheelchairs (mindful of the fact only two doors can take a ramp), plus 'whole house in a bag' suitcases.

All things considered, the tip-up seating is only a small part of the problem.

 

[sprunt]

So there were other seats available?? What was the passengers' attraction of the fold-down seats in which they were "sat", i.e. sitting?

If the train is quite busy but the seats in the vestibules are empty I'll sometimes choose to sit in them because it's quieter. I'd quite happily move if they were in a cycle area and a cyclist needed the area though.

 

[Llanigraham]

It's what I see on trains all the time. People have got used to airline restrictions and tend to use 55x40x20 sort of sized cases for most things and economise on packing.

I think you need to go to a few airports and look at what people are really taking with them.
Your comment may be true about passengers on flights within the UK but from what I have seen lately at Birmingham Airport or on trains to Manchester Airport it is far from correct.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The answer to the bike issue, which I know isn't going to happen, is to bring back van areas like we had years ago. In the 1980s we travelled all over the UK on trains with bikes and rarely had any space problems.

It's common for people to suggest that as an answer, but I do wonder whether it would work these days: People tend to be more security-conscious today, and I'm not sure that many cyclists would appreciate not being able to see their bike from where they are sitting, in the way that we tended to accept as fine in the 1980s.

 

[Haywain]

I know of one TOC looking to block out bike reservations to allow the space to be used by luggage… whether that’s happened as yet, I’m not sure.

I know of one that has done that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know of one that has done that.

Lumo has totally stopped carrying bikes in favour of luggage. I can see why others might do that on known problem trains where cycle reservations are compulsory (so nobody shows up with the expectation of cycle carriage to find it full of luggage) - this isn't really any different from the South East practice of banning them towards London in the morning peak and away from it in the evening peak. It isn't really acceptable for passengers to take it upon themselves to do it, though.

 

[BAFRA77]

In what reality do "Most people these days travel with an airline hand luggage sized case" when going holiday for a week? This is a train that goes to the airport. I would love to know what research you used for this? Probably the same research most train companies used when deciding to put next to zero luggage storage on trains.

I did for a two week break to Norway at the end of July.

 

[Taunton]

Seeing as little effort is put into resolving people unable to sit down, or even get through standing crowds to reserved seats, let alone passengers even unable to board overloaded services, it's not apparent why such efforts are put into clearing people out of the way for bicycles. Yes, it's designated bicycle space. Likewise the seating area is for passengers to sit, but there's no concern if there are no empty seats left.

The key issue is, once again, trains just not provided with sufficient accommodation for the paying passengers and what they bring with them (heavy luggage, bicycles, etc). Bicycles become an issue as, whatever is written about them, there are very few actually carried, and it is wasteful to keep an area on an overcrowded service just in case one gets on.

I'm always reminded of the bus company management who bemoaned that passengers were taking up space with their shopping. Having provided this particular bus service to/from a major shopping centre, what else did they expect on the return journey.

 

[bahnause]

Get rid of some of the airline seating. That gives a whole lot of easy-to-reach space for large pieces of luggage between the seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did for a two week break to Norway at the end of July.

Plenty of people do. Hard sided "IATA" hand luggage cases (usually a bit smaller for Ryanair size) are the most common thing to see on trains these days, I find. Even though I usually have bigger!

Get rid of some of the airline seating. That gives a whole lot of easy-to-reach space for large pieces of luggage between the seats.

With modern upright seats it's not a big space. With 80x they just need to put a rack in all four deadlight spaces, that'd be plenty given that the overheads are big and that some short people put it by their knees.

But there shouldn't be tip-ups in any space intended for another purpose. They just create conflict.

 

[BurtonM]

Agree that cycle spaces shouldn't have tip up seats, it used to be an utter pain on TPE, between luggage and having to ask people to move - I have had people refuse and become aggressive before. The guards were all too happy to chuck you out of the disabled space on 185s and send you to the cycle space, even if nobody needed the disabled space as well which didn't help matters (and it's huge on 185s!). I'd love to have seen a guards' reaction if I'd told them to come to the other end of the train with me and remove any passengers in the cycle space then...

 

[Falcon1200]

Honestly, I was astounded. I would have said something had it of been me.

Why would there be a need to say anything when someone needed to use the bike space for its intended purpose but it was blocked by passengers who had no need to sit there?

I know of one TOC looking to block out bike reservations to allow the space to be used by luggage

But bikes are just one type of luggage, surely?!!

 

[transportphoto]

But bikes are just one type of luggage, surely?!!

Defined separately in the National Rail Conditions of Travel.

 

[Jonny]

I must say without wishing to poke the cycling bear …. It seems an odd idea to me that someone travelling with a handbag and occupying a seat with their bay stowed in the footwell would be charged the same as either someone travelling with large 32kg luggage (or more), or indeed a cycle which takes the space of … some passengers. If I go to the airport, which this post refers to, I would expect the amount I travel with to affect the price I pay. Whether or not the rolling stock is correctly designed for either the route or the expected balance of non human objects travelling, it seems odd passengers can occupy wildly different amounts of space with no cost or other repercussions; and for any of those non human objects to result in other paying passengers standing …. *

*Obvious exemption for those who do not have a choice as to how they travel, eg wheelchair users or young babies in pushchairs.

Without wishing to deviate into speculative discussion, one wonders if the “Highland Explorer” sets which effectively provide a travelling rack for bikes and other sports equipment, might be a good use of some otherwise redundant rolling stock where platform lengths allow. From what I’ve heard and read, it seems to work quite well.

The basis of charging for luggage on trains is different to luggage charging on planes where every kilogram of luggage means that the airline has to buy extra fuel and maybe factor in changes to the plane's weight as a proportion of total weight and/or centre of gravity, whereas the same weight of luggage does not have the same proportional effect on the weight or fuel consumption, etc,.. of the train. Effectively, the cost of luggage to a train company is minimal and it is probably not worth calculating.

 

[Krokodil]

153s are much maligned, but one thing that they get right is having a cycle space with a luggage shelf above it. PRM ones also have a couple of tip-up seats in the former small bog area which is useful for mothers with prams.

 

[TUC]

They should never have put tip up seats in the cycle area either. Causes more trouble than a little for the poor traincrew having to shift passengers when cyclists board. Trains passing through Cambridge are always busy with bikes. The route through here has been even more difficult today for GA Norwich services due to industrial action at XC.

They are not designated airport trains just a common user regional fleet.

So what? If the TOC knows that airport passengers will use the service it's up to them to provide suitable space for luggage. What do you expect? People to have less luggage out sympathy for the TOC?

I believe that bikes do have priority over other luggage and passengers

Do they? Why should it be that one cyclist has priority over five passengers with cases, or that other passengers should have to squeeze past cases in the aisle just so that one person can have their bike on the train?

 

[dk1]

So what? If the TOC knows that airport passengers will use the service it's up to them to provide suitable space for luggage. What do you expect? People to have less luggage out sympathy for the TOC?

Obviously not but they need to follow the rules. You sound like you’ve got out of bed the wrong side this morning.

 

[trei2k]

In my mind, our obsession with sweating assets to cram in as many people are possible is leading to these conflicts. There is no need for it *looks in the direction of the DfT*

The alternative to rail travel is the car and poor experience on rail will push people to the car. Admittedly, carriage of a bike is slightly more complicate in a car but it is where we will end up.

 

[AndrewP]

In my view, if a space is dedicated for a purpose that is what it should be used for and that is irrespective of the argument on the amount of cycle space that should be on a train (and no TOC will ever be able to please everyone with that).

The simple fact is that all train interiors are a compromise and whereas at this time of the year there will be a lot more large suitcases (approx. 75 x 50 x 30) for 10 months of the year there are likely to be many less as air travel focuses on breaks and business and therefore cabin cases (approx. 55 x 40 x 20) will be used. There are also likely to be more pushchairs due to more leisure travel. As for bikes - the big problem is that they take up a lot of space at no cost and most can't be folded so it's a policy decision about what is reasonable and that will depend on whether you cycle or don't!

Good luck train designers!

 

[xotGD]

Taking a step back. Should non-folding bikes be allowed on trains?

With modern train design and the absence of guards vans, I suggest that the default answer should be "No".

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Taking a step back. Should non-folding bikes be allowed on trains?

Absolutely, preventing usage is not how bike usage is promoted.

With modern train design and the absence of guards vans, I suggest that the default answer should be "No".

Why should inefficient space usage vans prevent bike storage? Recently I travelled on a 397 for the first time and the bike area on that looked good, fold down seats for when there's not bikes (or as I saw, for the people travelling with their bikes), and space for LOADS of bikes if pushed in densely.
There is likely to be a decent amount of commuters who need bikes to be able to reasonably use the train, otherwise they'll end up in cars.

 

[Krokodil]

Taking a step back. Should non-folding bikes be allowed on trains?

With modern train design and the absence of guards vans, I suggest that the default answer should be "No".

When we're supposed to be moving towards a greener future, including more 'active travel'?

 

[317666]

One thing a lot of people either aren't aware of, or are unwilling to do, is put luggage underneath seats. On the 755s, for example, there's quite a lot of room under them due to the cantilevered seat design.

 

[al78]

Admittedly, carriage of a bike is slightly more complicate in a car but it is where we will end up.

Not in my car which will take a full size bike with the back seats down without any disassembly.

In the past didn't you have to book a cycle space on a train for a small cost? I vaguely remember doing that a few times. I'd be happy to pay a fiver or so to bring a non-folding bike with me on a train, so long as there is space made for it. When I go to Kinlochewe next year I'm toying up whether it is worth getting the train from Horsham to Achnasheen and bringing a mountain bike with me.

 

[Benjwri]

If

Not in my car which will take a full size bike with the back seats down without any disassembly.

And if someone isn’t so lucky to have that ability?

We can’t move towards car less transport, but the thing you need for that, a bike, needs a car.

 

[al78]

When we're supposed to be moving towards a greener future, including more 'active travel'?

LOL I'll believe that when the rail ticket to visit my family doesn't cost twice as much as the petrol needed to drive there and back.

If

And if someone isn’t so lucky to have that ability?

We can’t move towards car less transport, but the thing you need for that, a bike, needs a car.

By taking the front and rear wheels off you can get a bike into all but the smallest cars, a bit more faff admittedly. It is more of an issue if you have multiple bikes to transport in which case a roof rack is the best option (and you can get racks designed for transporting bicycles).

 

[Haywain]

If

And if someone isn’t so lucky to have that ability?

We can’t move towards car less transport, but the thing you need for that, a bike, needs a car.

Indeed. It's already difficult enough to take a bike on a train without adding more restrictions. As it is, the time restrictions for bike carriage can make long distance journeys very tricky for some people. We should be looking to make it easier, not more difficult.

 

[Purple Train]

LNER 80x bike compartments have lots of stickers saying that luggage is not permitted in them.

Of course, last time I went on one (on the 0900 Waverley-Kings Cross), one of the compartments was jam-packed with suitcases that looked like they had literally been thrown in.

 

[Benjwri]

By taking the front and rear wheels off you can get a bike into all but the smallest cars, a bit more faff admittedly. It is more of an issue if you have multiple bikes to transport in which case a roof rack is the best option (and you can get racks designed for transporting bicycles).

I have tried and can’t fit mine, as a uni student having the train to take my bike is pretty essential. If I could I probably wouldn’t bother with a bike and would just drive.

Plenty of people that don’t have the lixury of a cad though, what should they do?

 

[Malaxa]

LOL I'll believe that when the rail ticket to visit my family doesn't cost twice as much as the petrol needed to drive there and back.

That's right - the only cost of car ownership is the fuel one puts inside them. I'm going to go out and buy one now! No point using those inconvenient and expensive trains any more. It's bad enough alrea trying to squeeze my bicycle on the Thameslink through Gatwick.