Lumo to increase luggage space on board their trains?

[crablab]

...scrounging Firstgroup revenue raid taking the railway's richest pickings - pocketing money from the government and taxpayer.

Except it's not. All the evidence is that they've grown the market on that route, taking passengers from other modes - the airlines.

 

[185]

Except it's not. All the evidence is that they've grown the market on that route, taking passengers from other modes - the airlines.

Except it's billy-liar-FirstGroup figures & a government keen to make it look like it... 'great success!!'.

Reality is post-covid passenger numbers were going to rise anyway. The airlines on that route are small fry.

They add nothing to our railway other than capacity that LNER should have been given the capital to do.

 

[DanNCL]

I’ve read some of the horror stories about Lumo but I can’t say I’ve ever encountered anything other than professionalism from them when I’ve used them. Last year I travelled to London with them taking an airline hand luggage size suitcase and had no issues, it wasn’t any more difficult taking the suitcase on Lumo than it was taking it on an Austrian Railjet later the same day.

The staff have always been friendly and professional when I’ve used them, and indeed on one occasion I’ve witnessed them stay behind at Newcastle station beyond the end of their shift to help customers during disruption when the LNER station staff washed their hands of it. Now LNER may well have had every right to wash their hands of it I’m not seeking a debate on whether that was right or wrong, but if Lumo staff didn’t care like some here claim they wouldn’t have stayed to help they’d have buggered off.

The service is awful. No first class, users packed in like sardines and luggage restrictions quite different from other operators. Moreover, they are competing with and undercutting a far superior service run by LNER.

I guess the argument here is the same as with airlines. If you want to get from A to B cheaply and don’t mind not having anything more than a seat and a very basic luggage allowance, use the budget operator ie Lumo. If cost isn’t so much of an issue, you want to travel first class or you want to take the kitchen sink with you, use the ‘full service’ operator ie LNER.

They add nothing to our railway other than capacity that LNER should have been given the capital to do.

That is simply not true. Going from personal experience I’ve found the cost of going to London or Edinburgh from Newcastle has gone down considerably since Lumo entered the market. Before Lumo there was no open access on that part of the ECML which meant the operators could (and often did) charge as much as they wanted to for advances.

 

[HST43257]

Reality is post-covid passenger numbers were going to rise anyway. The airlines on that route are small fry.

I’d be happily corrected but I believe that the data that some of us refer to is comparing from a time in 2019, so it’s not just about recovering from low covid passenger numbers but saying that the market share has grown from before the pandemic to after it

 

[E100]

I’ve read some of the horror stories about Lumo but I can’t say I’ve ever encountered anything other than professionalism from them when I’ve used them. Last year I travelled to London with them taking an airline hand luggage size suitcase and had no issues, it wasn’t any more difficult taking the suitcase on Lumo than it was taking it on an Austrian Railjet later the same day.

The staff have always been friendly and professional when I’ve used them, and indeed on one occasion I’ve witnessed them stay behind at Newcastle station beyond the end of their shift to help customers during disruption when the LNER station staff washed their hands of it. Now LNER may well have had every right to wash their hands of it I’m not seeking a debate on whether that was right or wrong, but if Lumo staff didn’t care like some here claim they wouldn’t have stayed to help they’d have buggered off.


I guess the argument here is the same as with airlines. If you want to get from A to B cheaply and don’t mind not having anything more than a seat and a very basic luggage allowance, use the budget operator ie Lumo. If cost isn’t so much of an issue, you want to travel first class or you want to take the kitchen sink with you, use the ‘full service’ operator ie LNER.


That is simply not true. Going from personal experience I’ve found the cost of going to London or Edinburgh from Newcastle has gone down considerably since Lumo entered the market. Before Lumo there was no open access on that part of the ECML which meant the operators could (and often did) charge as much as they wanted to for advances.

Completely agree.

 

[LeeLivery]

One of the best things about the GB rail system is the integrated ticketing across all operators.

Lumo has definitely been a net good for the ECML. I see it as no different from Ryanair and want to see the same for International services.

I read this good article the other day: Edinburgh – London route shows Europe the way for modal shift:

Edinburgh – London route shows Europe the way for modal shift​

Published on 03-07-2023 at 10:04
Lumo on Lesbury Viaduct in Northumberland (@Adams_Railway - Facebook)
For business travellers eager to demonstrate their environmental credentials, there’s a shift to trains over planes. Now, with additional competition on Europe’s prestige routes, leisure travellers are looking at greener travel decisions that may be cheaper too. Research from technology specialists SilverRail shows the impact of express rail in Europe. They say increased competition on key routes is playing a leading role in helping rail increase its market share over air travel.

Corporate bean counters have been quick to notice the potential for savings on the bottom line. British company SilverRail says there is evidence that the business community is responding most. SilverRail’s campaign, Train over Plane, claims that additional express rail competition on the UK’s Edinburgh to London routes increased rail’s market share from just 35 per cent to 63 per cent, the biggest improvement for an existing service on an existing main line.
An even more dramatic shift has been recorded in Spain. Introducing a brand new service on a brand new high speed railway line helped improve the performance of the Madrid to Barcelona route jump from 12 per cent choosing rail to an unprecedented 73 per cent of all journeys being made by rail, while increasing the overall market as well.

Train over plane campaign​

Increasing the number of high-speed rail routes and allowing more carriers to compete on the existing network would have a significant impact in pushing passengers to make greener, more environmentally-friendly travel choices. This is according to new research from SilverRail, a company building digital infrastructure for rail, and providing data insights for a number of passenger train operators in the UK. The company has released the details of its research on the back of the launch of the latest phase of its own Train over Plane campaign – an initiative dedicated to helping the rail sector increase its passenger share.
Despite being a greener alternative, train travel remains the second choice for most of Europe’s passengers – with air often outcompeting rail in the three critical areas of affordability, travel time, and quality of experience. Despite the major advantages of rail – among them the city centre ‘turn up and go’ versus all the hassle of getting to airports and security checks – air travel scores well on price and core travel time. Customers often ignore the additional time and costs of reaching airports. Most importantly, low-cost airlines often have very attractive base prices, which lure in passengers.

Great Britain, greatest Spain, Italy not bad​

When analysing a selection of Europe’s most prominent express railways and dedicated high speed rail routes, researchers found that those that welcomed competition to their lines, and increasing the number of carriers, enjoyed a significant uplift in passenger numbers. According to SilverRail, the primary factors diving modal shift are a combination of reduced journey times as well as the cost reductions. They say that improved customer service that results from increased competition is also proving an attractive formula for European medium to long distance travellers
Data, sourced by SilverRail from the Global Business Travel Association’s Sustainability Summit, an inaugural event held late last year in Brussels, showed that when the Madrid – Barcelona route added high-speed rail services, the number of passengers choosing rail over air travel jumped from a meagre 12 per cent to nearly half (48 per cent). When new carriers were allowed to compete with the state carrier on the line, rail’s share of travellers rose to just under three-quarters (73 per cent). Similar gains were also seen in Italy, where the addition of high-speed rail to the route between Milan and Rome increased rail’s passenger share from 36 per cent to 58 per cent, before reaching a mammoth 80 per cent when competition was added to the route.

Absolute verified world records​

In the UK, loadings on the East Coast Main Line benefitted from a timetable recast which favoured higher speed, end to end express services on the prestige London to Edinburgh rail route. Although the ECML has been progressively upgraded over the years, it is largely a nineteenth-century route, and not a purpose-built high speed line, such as the HS2 project between London and Birmingham. Nevertheless, the line has seen many speed records set, including the verified absolute world records for steam and diesel traction. SilverRail say a combination of timetabling and competition saw an increase in passenger share, particularly in the business travel sector, from 35 per cent to 63 per cent. In 2021, new operator Lumo joined the line along with franchised operator London North Eastern Railway (LNER).

SilverRail make a number of measurement points for their figures, basically comparing loading figures over the past four or five years and taking into account the effects of the pandemic on travel overall. It is notable that the demographic of UK passengers has shifted significantly towards leisure travel. That large – and price sensitive – market spells good news for carriers seeking to fill the back of the train, to borrow an aviation metaphor. On an environmental level, the impact could also be huge: the same shift would prevent up to 2.4 million tonnes of carbon emissions entering the earth’s atmosphere.


SilverRail estimates that if competition was added to just a handful of single-operator European lines the industry would see an average modal shift of 50 per cent, which would net the rail sector an estimated one billion euro in additional revenue. Sweet music to the ears of the rail industry, but more of a funeral march for the airlines.

Should we not want more of these stories?

If Lumo needs to do something it's purchasing more carriages. 5 car Intercity trains between London and Edinburgh is a waste of capacity

 

[Trainbike46]

One of the best things about the GB rail system is the integrated ticketing across all operators.

Lumo has definitely been a net good for the ECML. I see it as no different from Ryanair and want to see the same for International services.

I read this good article the other day: Edinburgh – London route shows Europe the way for modal shift:



Should we not want more of these stories?

If Lumo needs to do something it's purchasing more carriages. 5 car Intercity trains between London and Edinburgh is a waste of capacity

I believe they use double set sometimes, but agreed it would be good if they would either extend their trains or run double sets more frequently

 

[TheBigD]

I believe they use double set sometimes, but agreed it would be good if they would either extend their trains or run double sets more frequently

Lumo have only run 1 double set in passenger service. It did one round trip Edinburgh to Peterborough and return (the ECML was shut south of Peterborough).

Lumo diagram 4 out of their 5 trains daily so no slack to double up normal services.

 

[HST43257]

Lumo is a lower quality service than LNER, I think that’s undeniable - That is obviously replicated in ticket prices. Their tactic is to pack ’em in tight and cheap, and that’s what you get and I see little issue with that. They have offered a different service and done well out of it in terms of passenger numbers, but crucially so have LNER. ECML demand is growing like never before, with several factors surrounding climate, speed and ease of use contributing to the move to trains from planes. I blame no one for looking for a piece of it, and they all seem to be succeeding one way or another.

 

[JamieL]

Lumo is a lower quality service than LNER, I think that’s undeniable - That is obviously replicated in ticket prices. Their tactic is to pack ’em in tight and cheap, and that’s what you get and I see little issue with that. They have offered a different service and done well out of it in terms of passenger numbers, but crucially so have LNER. ECML demand is growing like never before, with several factors surrounding climate, speed and ease of use contributing to the move to trains from planes. I blame no one for looking for a piece of it, and they all seem to be succeeding one way or another.

I wonder how many Lumo users are sold tickets as part of broader itinerary and are not made aware they are getting a sub-standard service vice LNER?

 

[py_megapixel]

I wonder how many Lumo users are sold tickets as part of broader itinerary and are not made aware they are getting a sub-standard service vice LNER?

The online journey planners will only advise using Lumo as part of a broader itinerary if the Lumo service is the best one for them to connect with. Since there are only five Lumo services a day, that is quite unlikely to happen in the first place, and if it does, I don't think sitting around for longer than necessary at an interchange station to wait for an LNER train really counts as a better quality service for most people.

Also, the thing about "a sub-standard service vice LNER" is entirely your opinion. Some passengers may prefer the seats on Lumo trains, or think they have a better food selection, or - to be completely frank - simply not see any significant difference between the two offerings other than the brand colour.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I wonder how many Lumo users are sold tickets as part of broader itinerary and are not made aware they are getting a sub-standard service vice LNER?

Probably not very many. Especially not those after the premium product you mention in terms of first class etc as the train will be shown as having no first accommodation.

It’s no different to people travelling on a broader itinerary on an interrail and end up on RegioJet in Czechia (their low cost operator) versus the state CD operator.

This seems to be making a mountain over a molehil.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Probably not very many.
It’s no different to people travelling on a broader itinerary and end up on RegioJet in Czechia (their low cost operator) versus the state CD operator.

Does CD's website sell Regiojet trains, though?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Does CD's website sell Regiojet trains, though?

Apologies I meant to say on an interrail, as people using the Interrail app - which many use across Europe would see both options. Post now edited.

On CD app no as the only common ticketing unlike GB is Interrail.

 

[cactustwirly]

Lumo is a lower quality service than LNER, I think that’s undeniable - That is obviously replicated in ticket prices. Their tactic is to pack ’em in tight and cheap, and that’s what you get and I see little issue with that. They have offered a different service and done well out of it in terms of passenger numbers, but crucially so have LNER. ECML demand is growing like never before, with several factors surrounding climate, speed and ease of use contributing to the move to trains from planes. I blame no one for looking for a piece of it, and they all seem to be succeeding one way or another.

Most of their customers would have flown easyJet which has a very similar service offering

 

[dk1]

Not sampled Lumo yet. Suppose it’s just easier for me to use LNER as don’t do reservations which I think are compulsory on Lumo. Might get round to it if it’s convenient.

 

[crablab]

It’s no different to people travelling on a broader itinerary on an interrail and end up on RegioJet in Czechia (their low cost operator) versus the state CD operator.

Apologies I meant to say on an interrail, as people using the Interrail app - which many use across Europe would see both options. Post now edited

I think a better analogy (although analogies are always faulty!) is SNCF TGV, InOui and Thalys (rebranding as Eurostar).

If you choose Paris to Brussels (for example) SNCF Connect will offer you various itineraries with these selection of operators. The main discriminant in the journey planner is price - with number of changes and duration also featuring.

But I'm not really sure what the relevance of this analogy is? In GB we have integrated ticketing, unlike in other countries. That means we have the benefit of getting the best journey planned for us, irrespective of the underlying operator. Clearly the ORR don't feel that Lumo offer a manifestly different service to LNER, or they would not be selling inter-available tickets with the former.

LNER as don’t do reservations which I think are compulsory on Lumo.

Reservations are also, according to the timetable, mandatory on LNER.

 

[dk1]

Reservations are also, according to the timetable, mandatory on LNER.

Thankfully that is not the case. No idea why they print this rubbish. Advisory is far better wording.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that what Lumo shows is that you have competitive pricing, many more people will choose the train over other modes.

Unfortunately those that control the railway see no political benefit to pricing rail competitively with other modes, therefore rail is left to languish, except where on-rail competition can put downward pressure on prices.

 

[greyman42]

Lumo is a lower quality service than LNER, I think that’s undeniable - That is obviously replicated in ticket prices. Their tactic is to pack ’em in tight and cheap, and that’s what you get and I see little issue with that.

I have never used Lumo, but how are they packed in any tighter than they are on LNER except in first class?

 

[crablab]

Thankfully that is not the case. No idea why they print this rubbish. Advisory is far better wording.

I think you may find that LNER and Lumo present identically in the timetable data in this sense. They both have the mandatory reservation flags set.

The difference may be, from what I read on here, that Lumo actually try to enforce their mandatory reservations. But since there is no notion of the same in the NRCoT, if you rock up with a valid ticket then (safety issues aside) they need to let you on!

 

[TheBigD]

I have never used Lumo, but how are they packed in any tighter than they are on LNER except in first class?

Roughly...

Lumo...
One extra row of seats in the non driving carriage, 1 table of 4 each side, and only 1 luggage stack to give 94 seats.
One extra row of seats, 1 table of 4 each side, and 0 luggage stacks in the driving vehicles.

LNER...
4 x table of 4 each side, 2 or 4 luggage stacks*, to give either 84 or 88 seats.
(* 5 car has 2, 9 car has 4)

 

[greyman42]

Lumo...
One extra row of seats in the non driving carriage, and only 1 table of 4 each side, and only 1 luggage stack to give 94 seats.

LNER...
4 x table of 4 each side, 2 or 4 luggage stacks*, to give either 84 or 88 seats.
(* 5 car has 2, 9 car has 4)

Is the leg room the same between the airline seats?

 

[Neptune]

Is the leg room the same between the airline seats?

I travel in the airline seats on LNER & TPE a lot and the only time I’ve travelled with Lumo noticed no difference in the legroom which is pretty good for a 6 footer like me.

 

[greyman42]

I travel in the airline seats on LNER & TPE a lot and the only time I’ve travelled with Lumo noticed no difference in the legroom which is pretty good for a 6 footer like me.

That being the case, then LUMO don't pack them in any more than LNER.

 

[Neptune]

That being the case, then LUMO don't pack them in any more than LNER.

No, I was very comfy on the Lumo, didn’t feel discernibly cramped even though the train was pretty much full. No better or worse than LNER.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I travel in the airline seats on LNER & TPE a lot and the only time I’ve travelled with Lumo noticed no difference in the legroom which is pretty good for a 6 footer like me.

I found Lumo marginally worse. May be because the seats are lower though.

 

[moonarrow458]

I must say that far from being the inferior operator on the ECML I found Lumo to be far more pleasant for a London than Edinburgh journey than LNER, purely on the standard class seats alone, that Lumo were cheaper was an added bonus. I can't stand the LNER azuma seats so even if Lumo were more expensive I'd still prefer to travel with them. Different ppl prefer different things, Lumo brings positive diversity to the market although I would probably say ordering 5 car trains was somewhat shortsighted and that longer trains would be more ideal.

I found no issue with luggage space when I travelled, however Grand Centrals cl180s were a different matter. The overhead luggage racks on Lumo are quite spacious, on a cl180 they're woefully inadequate. But others may have had different experiences..

 

[Hadders]

I've only travelled with Lumo once, from Stevenage to Edinburgh on the the 06:10 from Stevenage. A very pleasant journey, not at all crowded and why wouldn't anyone living in Stevenage and needing to travel to Edinburgh not use a train that only stop s once en-route!

I think open access is a good thing for the railway. Look at Hull Trains - there's no way LNER would be running five trains a day to Hull so as far as I'm concerned it's very clear that they've grown the market. This has meant LNER has also had to up their game.

It would be good to have some competition on the WCML, given Avanti's shocking performance. Just a shame Covid got in the way.

 

[jon0844]

Well, perhaps they should get longer trains. Or even better take their service off the railway altogether.

They tried that. There's a RAIB report elsewhere on this forum about it.