Luton ticket office claim EMR Advances Luton–London can only sold online—does this break impartiality rules?

[lightbulb]

Hello all,

I tried to purchase Advance singles between Luton and London (and back) on EMR trains today, for travel on 30th October, at Luton station. I was told that although there was availablity online, these tickets (specifically) cannot be sold at Luton: owing to their "cheapness" they can only be bought online. These tickets are indeed very cheap (£2.55 and £1.80 with a railcard respectively), but I've never come across this excuse for not being able to sell an Advance ticket at a ticket office before. I said as much, but the clerk insisted that Luton were not allowed to sell them because they were so cheap, and I should buy them online instead.

Is there any truth to this claim, or was I just being fobbed off? I presume that ticket offices have a duty to obey impartiality rules, and therefore a Thameslink-owned ticket office isn't allowed to refuse to sell EMR tickets. I ended up buying them online, as advised.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sounds like another ticket office arguing for its own abolition.

 

[Class800]

Not a great situation for the considerable amount of older people who do not use the internet

 

[jamiearmley]

I don't know about this particular case, or the legalities of it, but I do recall that VTEC/LNER sold cheap LNER only advances that were only available online from their own website for a while. You couldn't buy them anywhere else including ticket offices. Could this be a similar thing?

 

[Ianno87]

Not a great situation for the considerable amount of older people who do not use the internet

Amy evidence for this any more? My Mum is approaching 70 and always books tickets on line.

Fast on its way to becoming an urban myth.

 

[Class800]

In terms of evidence, I know plenty older people who don't use internet, mainly 80s, some late 70s, but haven't got a survey to hand no. My dad 70 has never used internet, but his wife can.

 

[Haywain]

Is there any truth to this claim, or was I just being fobbed off?

According to a TIS I have checked, they were wrong and a complaint to GTR would be appropriate.

 

[bakerstreet]

Amy evidence for this any more? My Mum is approaching 70 and always books tickets on line.

Fast on its way to becoming an urban myth.

My older family member can use the internet - emails etc - but I have to help with online shopping and I doubt they would successfully buy a rail ticket - or at least I would not be confident they would be buying what they thought they were buying. They would be far more confident at a ticket office

 

[Doctor Fegg]

IIRC there’s a provision for time-limited promotional fares which are exempt from the impartiality requirements. But I doubt that’s the case here.

 

[Mike395]

TrainSplit, amongst others, sell these fares as well as EMR's own site - as such, I'm 99% sure the ticket office was wrong here and they could have been sold.

 

[Llandudno]

Sounds like another ticket office arguing for its own abolition.

Maybe the person at Luton had been seconded from Sheffield ticket office….!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

In Japan they punish by doing menial duties. Picking up litter and sweeping the floor for example. Should that apply here ?

Maybe the person at Luton had been seconded from Sheffield ticket office….!

Or maybe they simply made a mistake.

Never mind, flog ‘em and hand ‘em I say

 

[Skymonster]

Amy evidence for this any more? My Mum is approaching 70 and always books tickets on line.

Fast on its way to becoming an urban myth.

After my elderly mother ended up with two kilograms of bananas rather than just two bananas following a recent tesco online shop, I’m not sure I’d want her buying rail tickets online!

 

[221129]

Or maybe they simply made a mistake.

Never mind, flog ‘em and hand ‘em I say

It's basic knowledge for ticket office staff. There is no excuse.

 

[Starmill]

Or maybe they simply made a mistake.

Never mind, flog ‘em and hand ‘em I say

Ticket offices are really not essential at all any more, and they cost considerable money to staff. Very basic errors would therefore be fairly concerning.

 

[SargeNpton]

Each ticket type is configured to say how it can be retailed, both in terms of the type of location that can sell it and in terms of the format in which it can be sold.

In terms of the locations allowed to sell, these can be defined as ticket offices, on-station ticket machines, remote ticket machines, on-train ticket machines and internet based retailing. It is then feasible that certain types of advance-purchase tickets are only set up for internet retailing and not sold from stations.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Amy evidence for this any more? My Mum is approaching 70 and always books tickets on line.

Fast on its way to becoming an urban myth.

A sample of one is not much evidence. But I take the point that anyone wanting to buy tickets to travel by train is likely to be competant to use technology.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Amy evidence for this any more? My Mum is approaching 70 and always books tickets on line.

Fast on its way to becoming an urban myth.

I think it was true, but people who had never used technology and so weren't interested in starting (e.g. my late grandparents) are rapidly dying of old age or in a condition where independent rail travel wouldn't be viable anyway, and the likes of my parents (who do use technology quite happily, and pay card whenever they can) are slotting into their place in age terms.

 

[Starmill]

Each ticket type is configured to say how it can be retailed, both in terms of the type of location that can sell it and in terms of the format in which it can be sold.

In terms of the locations allowed to sell, these can be defined as ticket offices, on-station ticket machines, remote ticket machines, on-train ticket machines and internet based retailing. It is then feasible that certain types of advance-purchase tickets are only set up for internet retailing and not sold from stations.

It certainly was common for East Midlands Trains to have some Advance ticket types that were unable to be sold at stations. They could usually see them but not sell them.

Whether that's still commonplace or affects these specific ones, I don't know, but it does seem doubtful as Haywain has been able to find them on another TIS.

 

[alxndr]

Amy evidence for this any more? My Mum is approaching 70 and always books tickets on line.

Fast on its way to becoming an urban myth.

Both my grandmothers (82 and 78) can use Facebook and Instagram to some degree but would never dream of purchasing anything online. They would either go in person, telephone, or ask a family member to handle it for them. My grandfather (81) has never been online in his life and has no intention of doing so; getting him to use as much as his "brick" mobile phone is impossible. All of the above have used a train in the last couple of years.

It is not just their generation that cannot, or will not, use technology for purchases. One of my colleagues (48) has only recently begun to trust paying his bills online due to recent changes in bank opening hours preventing him from doing it in person. He travels by train quite happily, but will not purchase anything, including tickets. online. Another (50-ish) does not drive, so uses public transport anywhere that he cannot cycle and uses the train regularly. He avoids anything more technical than an e-cigarette or electric bike, on the rare occasion he has to use a computer someone ends up operating it for him while he sits next to them as it's a completely alien world to him. My mother (52) might eventually manage to buy something like a valid ticket if she really had to, although she's unlikely to really understand what she has brought and would probably use the trainline.

Some might call it stubbornness, and perhaps in some cases it is, but it is quite a difficult thing to learn how to use, and have the appropriate amount of trust in. I recall my late grandfather going to buy a laptop about five years ago, he asked if it came with a manual. There are no manuals for computers these days, there is an assumption that people will know how to use them. Similarly with phones and tablets. While it is possible to learn by playing around with them, it can be daunting if you have no idea what you are doing at all and are scared of breaking something. It is quite hard to break into if you are suddenly forced into it.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

IIRC there’s a provision for time-limited promotional fares which are exempt from the impartiality requirements. But I doubt that’s the case here.

Found it:

However, there are provisions in the industry arrangements that provide for an exception to this general principle, allowing TOCs to make so-called ‘temporary fares’ that typically represent a discount on the standard fare. TOCs are permitted, through these provisions, to restrict the distribution channels (either specified retailers or sales channels) by which such discounted fares are sold to consumers. TOCs may therefore create discounted fares and reserve their distribution to themselves or to limited channels (e.g. a TOC has the ability to offer discounts and prevent their sale by other TOCs and third party retailers, should it so wish). The relevant industry arrangements limit the duration of discounted fares to 34 weeks, and they cannot have been offered in the preceding 17 weeks prior to their introduction.

From https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/retail-market-review-conclusions-october-2016.pdf (referring to the TSA).