cactustwirly
Established Member
How does Luton compare to the dump that is Stoke-on-trent?
I have never been to Luton, but I have been a resident of Slough, have family that live in Basildon, and live close (and therefore a frequent visitor) to both Dartford and Gravesend.
I have never had a moment's bother in any of them. Yes, some areas aren't that aesthetically pleasing, but I've never experienced any tension, nastiness, unfriendliness, or hostility. There's nothing wrong with any of them.
Slough has improved a lot since the early '90s and there weren't any major problems even then.
Brutalism isn't bad architecture just because it's brutalist.
As for Luton, is it possible that the traditional industries have died a while later than the traditional heavy industries in the other towns mentioned, and its time just hasn't come yet?
Really?
I can think of many cities that are much better than Hull.
The Muslim ghettoes and white ghettoes are so distinct and obviously segregated it’s almost like being in Belfast.
Hull is quite pleasant these days - probably in Britain’s top ten in my book.
Really?
I can think of many cities that are much better than Hull.
Bizarre thread. There are plenty of unattractive places all over the country, proximity to London and its 'affluence' (obviously, nobody apart from Londoners has any money) do not prevent places being unpleasant. There are large swathes of London that I would describe as unpleasant.
Perhaps I'm weird but I find former mills more aesthetically pleasing than almost anything built in the 1960's, 70's or 80's.
Not sure what's wrong with Northern mill towns and why we're using using them as a yardstick along with outdated stereotypes. Many Northern mill towns have lots of nice buildings as at one point that's where all the money was made. There are many nice buildings in the Heavy Woollen District.
The originally quoted post is poorly worded, based on flawed stereotypes, I make no apology for calling that out.
As you say post industrial decline is not exclusively Northern, nor is it specific to mill towns. That is my point exactly.
In answer to the original question- is it Luton’s proximity to London that has been part of its demise; London sucking the life out of the town as it obviously has a much better offering of just about everything.
What's possibly causing the tensions between the ethnical groups is the ever expanding zoneification that Luton seems to have which isn't benefitting anyone. I see it happening in Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford sooner or later.
Lets face it, these tensions will only become worse over time.
The Muslim ghettoes and white ghettoes are so distinct and obviously segregated it’s almost like being in Belfast. Luton has a lot more terrorists than Belfast these days though - and I’m being completely serious about that.
Very interesting, considering that Hull is a really fascinating historical town with some wonderful architecture, great pubs and an excellent sporting culture.
I would class it as one of Britain's better cities.
Hull is quite pleasant these days - probably in Britain’s top ten in my book.
That’s a good example of why multiculturalism is not the panacea we are told it is. It fails if you import large numbers of people with alien values, no ability to speak the language and no desire to integrate with their host country.
I was hoping we wouldn't descend to the level of blaming the browns quite so quickly!
.....it is a terribly divided community - the question is why (& i would prefer not to descend to the EDL level of debate!)
They may have travelled from Luton but they were from Leeds, Leeds, Bradford and Aylesbury.oh and let's not forget where the 7/7 bombers were from...
BTW lets not play who is more northern. Sheffield is almost in the south east.
it is a terribly divided community - the question is why (& i would prefer not to descend to the EDL level of debate!)
To play devils advocate it also fails if the existing culture isn't able or willing to support and train the new entrants to the required local standards.
I don't think anyone is "blaming the browns", but it is a fact that the Muslim community in Luton has always been militant and anti-integration. No amount of "helping to integrate" will work if those you're trying to help refuse to be integrated.
You mention the EDL... let's not forget that the EDL was formed in Luton after the Muslim community disrupted and disrespected a parade in honour of veterans... oh and let's not forget where the 7/7 bombers were from...
The sad truth is that Luton does have extremists on both sides of the racial divide, but I can't help but feel that the non-Muslim population of Luton are fed up of being told that they must "help" their Muslim neighbours to integrate when every attempt to do so just gets spat straight back in their faces!
As I never tire of reminding a mate of mine from Workswirth - who sets great store on being a “northerner” down here - he’s actually from the midlands.
There are clear issues in Luton, and other parts of the U.K. (parts of East London, Bradford) around lack of integration and ghettoisation.
Looking at the groups concerned they are predominantly Bengali and Pakistani, groups which have some of the lowest rates of employment and engagement in UK society - particularly amongst women. The mistake many make is assuming that people from other parts of the world are the same as “us”. That is not the case. Many do not subscribe to values you or I would recognise as cornerstone to a secular, liberal democracy: equality for women, acceptance of homosexuality etc.
This is a valid question that needs to be addressed rather than ignored as too difficult to deal with in an age of political correctness. I would argue that sweeping things under the carpet and denying the issue is itself playing into the hands of the EDL.
We need to be honest enough to ask more about the values of people we bring into this country and ensure they at least have the ability to access the job market, access services etc. Speaking English would be a good start.
That’s true, but I don’t think that’s the case in Luton. There are plenty of ethnic groups in this country who integrate very well and indeed out perform their white counterparts.
maybe... but think about it logically... they grouped together at Luton... meaning they stayed overnight... in a safe house... it's a pretty safe bet that they congregated at "HQ" and that the whole thing was planned in Luton.. especially given the militancy of the Muslim community there...They may have travelled from Luton but they were from Leeds, Leeds, Bradford and Aylesbury.
I am well aware of the EDL thanks. There is something clearly very wrong in the town that has led to such divided communities. It cant be ENTIRELY the fault of the brown people - I wonder if our views on integration may differ.
See my above post... perhaps better wording would have been "where the 7/7 bombers travelled fromAs an aside the 7/7 bombers were not from Luton. They were form Yorkshire
Again, that is incorrect. Three of them drove down to Luton from Leeds that morning, and met the fourth at the station.maybe... but think about it logically... they grouped together at Luton... meaning they stayed overnight... in a safe house...
See my above post... perhaps better wording would have been "where the 7/7 bombers travelled from
To be honest I think it disingenious to say people are "blaming the browns"... the problem is adherents of one particular religion... Islam... and as someone else has already said, adherents from a particular area of the world... the Indian subcontinent. I always found Hindus Sikhs Black Muslims, West Indians etc willing and able to integrate... The truth is Muslims from the subcontinent, at least the vocal bunch who get all the attention, have come to this country because they "like our values" and then spend all their time shouting about what a bunch of wicked infidels the indeginous population are and spend their time {sometimes violently} demanding that we dismantle our liberal society to please them!
well I hope there was independent corroboration of that... after all they would hardly say "oh yes well we came down 2 days ago and we've been staying in a safe house and oh here's the address"Again, that is incorrect. They drove down to Luton from Leeds that morning.
well I hope there was independent corroboration of that... after all they would hardly say "oh yes well we came down 2 days ago and we've been staying in a safe house and oh here's the address"
Still doesn't alter the fact that there was anger, shame and outrage amongst the non-Muslim community that the images of them boarding a train at Luton Stn dragged Luton's name through the mud.
As an aside... if that version of events is correct then a question has to be asked... why did they drive down to Luton? After all there are direct trains from Leeds to London aren't there? There must have been a reason for their actions... after all they weren't worried about covering their tracks were they, they were suicide bombers so I assume they intended that it wouldn't matter to them...
yes and I grew up in Luton, spending the first half of my life there, and many more years visiting friends and relatives... I can assure you that, in general, the Muslim community from the subcontinent are not integrated into the wider community, and nor do they want to... there are 2nd generation Muslims in Luton that have very limited command of the English language...they drove and got the train from there. This information is all in the public domain. If there was a safe house it was in Dewsbury or Batley not Luton. I am sure there are plenty of proto islamonut jobs in Luton. They didn't include these morons.
As an aside this is exactly the kind of disinformation extremists like the EDL traffic in.
And yet i work with several Muslim people of both sexes who live in and are from Luton. They are integrated into the wider community but still Muslim. I suspect that the numbers "shouting about what a bunch of wicked infidels the indeginous population are and spend their time {sometimes violently} demanding that we dismantle our liberal society to please them!" are fairly low. Perhaps it is more to do with Religion AND socioeconomic status than simply being a muslim.
yes and I grew up in Luton, spending the first half of my life there, and many more years visiting friends and relatives... I can assure you that, in general, the Muslim community from the subcontinent are not integrated into the wider community, and nor do they want to... there are 2nd generation Muslims in Luton that have very limited command of the English language...
even 25 years ago it was unsafe for a non-Muslim to walk through Bury Park alone at night...the fact remains that Luton is a very divided society and multiculturism has failed the town miserably. And considering that the community that hasn't integrated is the Muslim community then despite your wish that I wouldn't point the finger, surely the fault lays at the feet of the group that hasn't integrated...
and before you claim it is a reaction to recent events causing Islamaphobia, then note these problems have been endemic in Luton for over 35 years!
I agree entirely - i have no problem with people moving here to work. I would like them to have some knowledge of the norms we live by and an ability to integrate.
The other issue is that by discussing these problems it is VERY easy to offer succor to EDL/Alt right nut jobs. We need an honest, open debate but we don't need the send them all home club.
Sorry but it is you that is fixated, in a vain attempt to prove that Luton's problems have nothing to do with Muslims... if you read ALL my posts up until you decided to pull me up on one point you will see that I have given a number of reasons for Luton's problemsI am simply suggesting it is very easy to blame one group of people because they are different. That is the easy way out. You don't seem to want to ask the question why they don't ( in your view) want to integrate. Why don't they want to? They cant all want to kill us and destroy our way of life.
It is odd that several of your statements seem straight out of the EDL media play book. The one about the Luton safe house you seem fixated on is easily disproved. The bomb factory was in Hyde Park in Leeds.
actually it was formed as a direct consequence of 2 militant Islamic groups staging a demonstration against, and disrupting, a parade in honour of Afghanistan veterans. You could say that it was the straw that broke the camel's back in Luton after years of militant Islamic activity which had and still is largely ignored by the establishment and authorities for fear of being seen as racistIt was interesting to note @Teflon Lettuce ‘s comment that the EDL was formed in Luton - I was unaware of that. I think that demonstrated the issue. If people are not listened to, and issues are swept under the carpet, it just gives oxygen to extremism.
There's nothing to call out. Read what I said, not what you thought that I said.
Correct, as I said. It's an expression, - not mine, maybe somebody with experience of northern mill towns coined it.
That's true, but it seems that Luton's continued decline despite immense pressures on affordable housing in the south-east is an exception. Luton doesn't even have any sense of identity, except maybe from EDL supporters.
you are being silly and willfully misrepresenting things.
It was me who said it initially more focused on North East industrial towns. Towns that I know very well. Luton has the same run down, disenfranchised and abandoned feel. The point you miss ( perhaps willfully once again) is that Luton being such a dump offers cheap housing by SE standards yet does not seem to have changed. The other towns in the area are noticeably better off. Luton isn't like that. It feels like the towns I know in the North East that have been left behind. It has a very desolate northern feel and the same sort of crushing futility that you come across in former pit towns. I get that in Seaham or Easington. I don't in Luton.
BTW lets not play who is more northern. Sheffield is almost in the south east.
Sadly you are wrong. Other towns in the area do not suffer in the same way Luton does. it should be attracting young commuters looking to own their own home. It has superb rail links to London, an airport, the M1 very close by and the A1M not that far away.