M-Ticket activated but not used.

[clagmonster]

I think in this instance when leaving the station at Shipley I would ask the revenue to endorse the ticket on their app as unused due to disruption, thus making any refund easier.

I agree with the others that using the two portions of the ticket the wrong way round is invalid and hence on the journey from Shipley to Bradford you were liable to be treated as if no ticket were held at all and hence charged a penalty fare or reported for prosecution.

 

[Class195]

I think in this instance when leaving the station at Shipley I would ask the revenue to endorse the ticket on their app as unused due to disruption, thus making any refund easier.

I agree with the others that using the two portions of the ticket the wrong way round is invalid and hence on the journey from Shipley to Bradford you were liable to be treated as if no ticket were held at all and hence charged a penalty fare or reported for prosecution.

Can they do that?

The gate line staff at Bradford Forster Square scanned my code and knew it hadn’t been used on the barriers but couldn’t work out why it was activated at 12:30pm and being used at 10:00pm.

Northern haven’t made any of this clear have they? I certainly didn’t know that you could have it scanned and endorsed for a later journey etc....

 

[clagmonster]

I understand it is possible for inspectors to add endorsements which can be seen by other staff scanning the aztec code, yes. Said feature is not publicly advertised. Whether they would do so on request by a passenger I do not know, though assuming they know how to do it I don't see why they wouldn't.

 

[bkhtele]

In this case the gateline staff were correct in reviewing your ticket as you were using it the wrong way around. The ticket was not valid, and they used common sense & let you through.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Quite a seriously poor attitude from various staff there I'd say.

Ref activation on the train - that would surely be a potential 'fare dodgers get out' as if you thought you could get away with not activating it you might then be tempted to obtain a refund at the end of the journey if no checks / barriers in place.

How does this work with the rights you have as a passenger to have an 'instant refund' from point of purchase if the train you wish to catch is delayed / cancelled? You would have been entitled to this earlier in the day when you gave up on the journey (not that you should have necessarily done that if you thought 'I'll use this later on'). Is that easy to obtain with these sorts of tickets?

I too would have stuck to paper tickets, they would not have asked you anything had you turned up at 10pm with a ticket bought at lunch time would they.

But surely, with paper tickets, if you'd been through a barrier to access the platform in the first place (before abandoning the journey), then although on the eventual end of the journey (in Bradford in the evening) the exit gates would find the ticket hadn't already been used to exit, wouldn't they "realise" that the barrier entry time was many hours earlier and spit it out for that reason? Or doesn't the entry gate "time stamp" the ticket at all?

 

[Wallsendmag]

I understand it is possible for inspectors to add endorsements which can be seen by other staff scanning the aztec code, yes. Said feature is not publicly advertised. Whether they would do so on request by a passenger I do not know, though assuming they know how to do it I don't see why they wouldn't.

Not something I've heard of to be honest. Although we don't use m-Tickets anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But surely, with paper tickets, if you'd been through a barrier to access the platform in the first place (before abandoning the journey), then although on the eventual end of the journey (in Bradford in the evening) the exit gates would find the ticket hadn't already been used to exit, wouldn't they "realise" that the barrier entry time was many hours earlier and spit it out for that reason?

Not that I know of, no, as you can make the journey take as long as you wish within the validity of the ticket.

 

[WesternLancer]

But surely, with paper tickets, if you'd been through a barrier to access the platform in the first place (before abandoning the journey), then although on the eventual end of the journey (in Bradford in the evening) the exit gates would find the ticket hadn't already been used to exit, wouldn't they "realise" that the barrier entry time was many hours earlier and spit it out for that reason? Or doesn't the entry gate "time stamp" the ticket at all?

No idea what barrier 'marking' tech actually does. But you could in theory start a journey at station A and 10am, break journey at station B en route to final destination C at 10.15am, resume journey at B at 21.00 and alight at C at 21.30 some considerable time after starting the journey and the ticket would still be valid.

 

[_toommm_]

I’m not sure if it’s the case with Avanti anymore, but with VTWC there were reports on here that digital ‘endorsements’ could be added when scanning a ticket. Again, whether that was exclusively for m-tickets or e-tickets or both, I’m not too sure on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure if it’s the case with Avanti anymore, but with VTWC there were reports on here that digital ‘endorsements’ could be added when scanning a ticket. Again, whether that was exclusively for m-tickets or e-tickets or both, I’m not too sure on.

Given that an e-ticket can be associated to a person, I wonder if anyone has ever uncovered these by way of a subject access request?

TBH, I don't get why they aren't visible to the passenger. Staff should not be writing things on tickets (or anywhere else) about named individuals that would not be appropriate to be shown to that person.

 

[jamiearmley]

To add to this :

All electronic tickets of all types , including paper printed QR codes, are clever enough to show the outward portion as invalid once the return portion has been scanned.

Credit card style tickets are not as sophisticated.

Given that you made the return journey from Bradford before the outward one, when your return ticket went through the barriers , the system flags up that your outward ticket is no longer valid. Hence the issue later, when you tried to use the outward ticket.

This is entirely correct.

The staff at Bradford would have been acting properly if they had taken details and reported the matter for consideration.

I suspect they didn't, purely because if the outward journey had been used, there would have been a barrier scan from Bradford attached to the outward portion.

When you buy your tickets on your phone, you are entirely liable for their use. Not knowing the tiny detail of the conditions of travel will not protect you in court.

I suspect that as you dealt with the barrier staff courteously , they were minded to show discretion.

Paper tickets, from a machine, a ticket office, or a conductor, do not present this problem in the same way.

Paper tickets, also do not, when scanned, instantly give the person scanning a reference number which can be reported, and used to trace you, and your account details, for further investigation.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Are you sure about the barriers?

 

[some bloke]

The staff at Bradford would have been acting properly if they had taken details and reported the matter for consideration.

It would have been proper in one way because technically @Class195 was guilty of a criminal offence, but I don't see why it would have been appropriate.

They could have checked that there had been a problem with the overhead lines and at least one cancellation. Together with the activation time, these made it highly plausible that @Class195 had been inconvenienced.

In that light they could have used discretion about @Class195's perhaps understandable ignorance of the rule. It was an unusual story, but living between the stations helps explain it.

 

[WesternLancer]

It would have been proper in one way because technically @Class195 was guilty of a criminal offence, but I don't see why it would have been appropriate.

They could have checked that there had been a problem with the overhead lines and at least one cancellation. Together with the activation time, these made it highly plausible that @Class195 had been inconvenienced.

In that light they could have used discretion about @Class195's perhaps understandable ignorance of the rule. It was an unusual story, but living between the stations helps explain it.

One can not be sure the staff concerned knew the rule (or they might have explained it clearly to the OP), of course. Post #41 above is very informative as it explains the kit would have rejected it and why - and it's possible that the staff simply saw it as a rejected ticket, without necessarily knowing the reason and it would be logical for staff to jump to the conclusion it had simply been used earlier, perhaps.

 

[jamiearmley]

It would have been proper in one way because technically @Class195 was guilty of a criminal offence, but I don't see why it would have been appropriate.

They could have checked that there had been a problem with the overhead lines and at least one cancellation. Together with the activation time, these made it highly plausible that @Class195 had been inconvenienced.

In that light they could have used discretion about @Class195's perhaps understandable ignorance of the rule. It was an unusual story, but living between the stations helps explain it.

Agreed. And here is where attitude comes into play. In this case, a courteous and patient approach minded those involved to show discretion.

An aggressive, confrontational, or otherwise "difficult" approach would have resulted in a report being made, so that someone at a higher pay grade can investigate , and reach that same conclusion.

Attitude is everything.

I speak as someone who listens to hundreds of similar stories each week. In the main, people are decent , and generally get a detailed, validated note for onward travel, specifically detailing the issue, my response, my details, and a clear authorisation to complete their journey without further hassle. There are at least two forum members who can attest to this.

There are, however, always exceptions.

 

[alistairlees]

To add to this :

All electronic tickets of all types , including paper printed QR codes, are clever enough to show the outward portion as invalid once the return portion has been scanned.

Credit card style tickets are not as sophisticated.

Given that you made the return journey from Bradford before the outward one, when your return ticket went through the barriers , the system flags up that your outward ticket is no longer valid. Hence the issue later, when you tried to use the outward ticket.

This is entirely correct.

The staff at Bradford would have been acting properly if they had taken details and reported the matter for consideration.

I suspect they didn't, purely because if the outward journey had been used, there would have been a barrier scan from Bradford attached to the outward portion.

When you buy your tickets on your phone, you are entirely liable for their use. Not knowing the tiny detail of the conditions of travel will not protect you in court.

I suspect that as you dealt with the barrier staff courteously , they were minded to show discretion.

Paper tickets, from a machine, a ticket office, or a conductor, do not present this problem in the same way.

Paper tickets, also do not, when scanned, instantly give the person scanning a reference number which can be reported, and used to trace you, and your account details, for further investigation.

I am not so sure about some (possibly any) of the statements you make here. What is ‘the system’ you refer to? I am always highly suspicious of such general statements.
Still, of course, I might be wrong. I will have a look at some barcode tickets and see what happens in the ticket validation database, and what is shared with other TVDs, when I get a moment. I don’t think usage is shared though; just cancellations.

 

[Class195]

To add to this :

All electronic tickets of all types , including paper printed QR codes, are clever enough to show the outward portion as invalid once the return portion has been scanned.

Credit card style tickets are not as sophisticated.

Given that you made the return journey from Bradford before the outward one, when your return ticket went through the barriers , the system flags up that your outward ticket is no longer valid. Hence the issue later, when you tried to use the outward ticket.

This is entirely correct.

The staff at Bradford would have been acting properly if they had taken details and reported the matter for consideration.

I suspect they didn't, purely because if the outward journey had been used, there would have been a barrier scan from Bradford attached to the outward portion.

When you buy your tickets on your phone, you are entirely liable for their use. Not knowing the tiny detail of the conditions of travel will not protect you in court.

I suspect that as you dealt with the barrier staff courteously , they were minded to show discretion.

Paper tickets, from a machine, a ticket office, or a conductor, do not present this problem in the same way.

Paper tickets, also do not, when scanned, instantly give the person scanning a reference number which can be reported, and used to trace you, and your account details, for further investigation.

Can I add that despite being a daily rail traveller and a member of this forum that I honestly didn't know about the above (the barriers cancelling the outward ticket when using the return if as what happened to me with the disruption at Shipley, the outward ticket was never used).

At least I know for next time anything similar happens to seek a member of staff to attach a note to my online ticket that there was been distuption and it hasn't been used.

 

[Class195]

Can I ask one final question, what are the devices which the revenue staff used to check my barcodes?

Do conductors have the ability to do the same?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Can I ask one final question, what are the devices which the revenue staff used to check my barcodes?

Do conductors have the ability to do the same?

everyone checking barcodes should have their device connected to an Electronic Ticket Validation Database (eTVD)

 

[mirodo]

I always recommend the Trainline app when buying tickets on the day. There's no booking fees, they use e-tickets (which do not have stupid activation requirements) and the app itself is very well put together and slickly implements e-tickets within the app as well as giving you a pdf.

I did Sheringham - Norwich - Cambridge - East Croydon on Sunday (split ticketed as SHM - CBG Off Peak Single & CBG - ECR Super Off Peak Single), bought on the 10th July in the Trainline app. It was delivered as 2 x m-tickets, which came as a surprise as I thought they did e- or paper tickets only?

 

[Wallsendmag]

GA don't like eTickets