Maesteg bus station closed to majority of services due to safety incident

[anthony263]

I’ve attached a poster put up at Maesteg bus station and on First Cymru Facebook page.

Maesteg bus station has been shut to all bar 1 bus service due a very serious incident involving a bus and pedestrian yesterday.

These problems have been going on years in fact. I’ve had at least 3 near misses when I drove for First Cymru at their Maesteg depot and when I worked for easyway.

Service X3 Maesteg to Port Talbot is the only service using the bus station but is parking in a way so that it doesn’t need to reverse off the stands.

There are plenty of signs warning people not to walk through the bus manoeuvring area and warning motorists not to drive through the bus station but they still do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like someone needs a lesson in "desire paths" but in the meantime why not just contract in banksmen?

 

[anthony263]

Sounds like someone needs a lesson in "desire paths" but in the meantime why not just contract in banksmen?

Problem is nobody taking responsibility

 

[PG]

Am I correct in thinking that only 3 services used the bus station?

 

[Dai Corner]

Am I correct in thinking that only 3 services used the bus station?

Yes. 70/71 Cymmer-Bridgend and X3 Maesteg-Port Talbot.

7 buses an hour altogether.

 

[Ken H]

Whoever thought having buses full of people reversing was a good idea? Even if you restrict the public, there could still be staff legitimately walking about.
I was on a Transdev 36 in Leeds bus station the other day. It and another bus a few stands down reversed out at the same time. OK they saw each other but that looks like an accident waiting to happen. (The stands between the moving buses were all full)

Vicar Lane bus station in Leeds was a reverse out one from before WW2, but they had conductors then. They had a whistle to tell the driver to start reversing back And Otley bus station has a banksman on duty even today.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Whoever thought having buses full of people reversing was a good idea? Even if you restrict the public, there could still be staff legitimately walking about.
I was on a Transdev 36 in Leeds bus station the other day. It and another bus a few stands down reversed out at the same time. OK they saw each other but that looks like an accident waiting to happen. (The stands between the moving buses were all full)

Vicar Lane bus station in Leeds was a reverse out one from before WW2, but they had conductors then. They had a whistle to tell the driver to start reversing back And Otley bus station has a banksman on duty even today.

The use of "sawtooth" or "end on" bus stations has been commonplace for years, and staff/public walking about has always been a consideration. The main issue is not staff (they tend to be aware of vehicles etc) but the general public taking shortcuts and, it has to be said, bus spotters taking photos! As well as Vicar Lane, Wetherby was such as location. Perhaps the issue is the "openness" of the maneuvering area?

Again, using your native West Yorkshire, there is a longstanding example at Huddersfield but it's designed so that the general public aren't easily able to enter the apron. Whilst a bit more open, Cleckheaton and Ossett are examples where the design is such that it actively discourages people so that you can't really take a short cut. At Otley, where that isn't possible, they employ a banksman/security to stop you encroaching.

At Maesteg, it isn't like that. It is wide open and in fact, you are actively encouraged to cross over the apron to get to/from the taxi rank. Better to remove the taxi rank and increase the size of the one by the post office, and spend some money on addtional barriers and better waiting facilities anyway. Though you might think that they might just close it and redevelop the site?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another option is to equip buses using it with reversing cameras. You don't want people walking all over the apron, but it at least deals with the safety issue. To be honest I think within a few years it should, and will, be mandatory for all large vehicles to have cameras covering all blind areas - I suspect London will start the trend on that pretty quickly. It's cheap and it improves safety, and is rapidly becoming standard on cars.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Another option is to equip buses using it with reversing cameras. You don't want people walking all over the apron, but it at least deals with the safety issue. To be honest I think within a few years it should, and will, be mandatory for all large vehicles to have cameras covering all blind areas - I suspect London will start the trend on that pretty quickly. It's cheap and it improves safety, and is rapidly becoming standard on cars.

Many already do - Optare Solos have had them for years. By far the best thing to do is improve the design of bus stations so that people aren't putting themselves in harms' way as a camera is simply dealing with a symptom rather than the root cause.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many already do - Optare Solos have had them for years. By far the best thing to do is improve the design of bus stations so that people aren't putting themselves in harms' way as a camera is simply dealing with a symptom rather than the root cause.

Yes, true. The thing that needs to be taken into account is "desire paths", i.e. people will take what they perceive to be the shortest/easiest route to where they're going*. You can avoid that by whacking up fences, snotty signs and automatic gates (and if the "desire paths" obviously cross a dangerous area you should), but even better is to design your bus station (or whatever) so pedestrians can take a short route to the boarding area. It sounds like this one failed a bit at that.

You can of course design out reversing by moving away from a sawtooth design, but it does have considerable advantages, e.g. you can provide a better shelter building for the money as it's smaller so cheaper, and easier connections. Overall I favour using the design but designing out the safety issues and having reversing cameras just in case a muppet does run across.

* Give or take the accessibility issue, desire paths are by far the best way to design footpaths in new parkland, estates and similar. Grass it all, wait for the paths to appear (and they will), then pave them.

 

[Ken H]

Yes, true. The thing that needs to be taken into account is "desire paths", i.e. people will take what they perceive to be the shortest/easiest route to where they're going*. You can avoid that by whacking up fences, snotty signs and automatic gates (and if the "desire paths" obviously cross a dangerous area you should), but even better is to design your bus station (or whatever) so pedestrians can take a short route to the boarding area. It sounds like this one failed a bit at that.

You can of course design out reversing by moving away from a sawtooth design, but it does have considerable advantages, e.g. you can provide a better shelter building for the money as it's smaller so cheaper, and easier connections. Overall I favour using the design but designing out the safety issues and having reversing cameras just in case a muppet does run across.

* Give or take the accessibility issue, desire paths are by far the best way to design footpaths in new parkland, estates and similar. Grass it all, wait for the paths to appear (and they will), then pave them.

we know from the railway that people will destroy security fencing in order to make a short cut.

 

[Gloster]

Ryde is a sawtooth bus station with at least a dozen buses an hour. The main hazard is tourists who haven’t brought their brains on holiday and have their faces shoved into an ice cream wandering about without paying attention. They are about to start rebuilding the place and this will eliminate that problem, but I am sure that the grockles will discover a new idiocy, or probably several.

 

[Leeds1970]

Whoever thought having buses full of people reversing was a good idea? Even if you restrict the public, there could still be staff legitimately walking about.
I was on a Transdev 36 in Leeds bus station the other day. It and another bus a few stands down reversed out at the same time. OK they saw each other but that looks like an accident waiting to happen. (The stands between the moving buses were all full)

Vicar Lane bus station in Leeds was a reverse out one from before WW2, but they had conductors then. They had a whistle to tell the driver to start reversing back And Otley bus station has a banksman on duty even today.

At Leeds bus station each stand has a monitor fitted in front of the bus and there is a line of reversing cameras' so the drivers have a clear view of what is behind them and a strict protocol of who has right of way, if the monitor or camera fails the stand is taken out of use. the bus station staff are also on the ball when people do for whatever reason stray into the carriageway

 

[Simon75]

Crewe bus station has 2 entrances and I see a few people making a short cut.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, true. The thing that needs to be taken into account is "desire paths", i.e. people will take what they perceive to be the shortest/easiest route to where they're going*. You can avoid that by whacking up fences, snotty signs and automatic gates (and if the "desire paths" obviously cross a dangerous area you should), but even better is to design your bus station (or whatever) so pedestrians can take a short route to the boarding area. It sounds like this one failed a bit at that.

You can of course design out reversing by moving away from a sawtooth design, but it does have considerable advantages, e.g. you can provide a better shelter building for the money as it's smaller so cheaper, and easier connections. Overall I favour using the design but designing out the safety issues and having reversing cameras just in case a muppet does run across.

* Give or take the accessibility issue, desire paths are by far the best way to design footpaths in new parkland, estates and similar. Grass it all, wait for the paths to appear (and they will), then pave them.

To be honest, I'm not even certain that Maesteg needs a bus station but if you want to retain it, then it needs a redesign


As a comparison, this is Ossett. A similar sized but busier location. No taxi rank, better fencing and remodelled footpaths will certainly help.

 

[C96]

Why not fit buses with rear sensors as well as cameras?

 

[PG]

Another option is to equip buses using it with reversing cameras.

In my own experience the reversing camera on a bus gives a small (B&W) picture, even though the same monitor shows the interior in colour, which shows quite a narrow field behind the bus. It is almost an aerial view so people aren't that prominent. I find it best to check the monitor once reverse is engaged before then relying on the exterior mirrors while actually moving. Frankly the camera, thus far, hasn't shown me anything that I wasn't already aware of in my mirrors.

Give or take the accessibility issue, desire paths are by far the best way to design footpaths in new parkland, estates and similar. Grass it all, wait for the paths to appear (and they will), then pave them

Indeed. Maybe it should be a planning condition that after a few months the developers have to add paving on impromptu paths?

Anyway as @TheGrandWazoo has said, the preferred option is to design out the desire for people to be in the apron.

 

[GusB]

I'm not entirely convinced that this is as big an issue as some people are making out. Provided that there are sufficient measures in place to prevent people from walking where they shouldn't, the design isn't unsafe.

My local bus station is of saw-tooth design, and there are metal barriers that prevent people from crossing the bits they shouldn't cross. It's certainly not impossible to prevent anyone crossing the apron if they so desire - the only real way to do so would be to have full glass doors that only open when a bus is actually at the stance - but there's no actual pavement at the back of the bus station that would provide a natural walking route anyway.

I honestly don't think that adding extra gadgets to buses is necessary when a) the people who designed the bus station should have taken all of this into account in the first place, and b) people should actually have slightly more common sense and realise that if they walk in an area that has large vehicles reversing, they're putting themselves in danger.

Actually, scrap point b) - where there's blame, there's a claim and these days it's completely nonsensical to suggest that anyone take personal responsibility for their own actions.

 

[Snow1964]

Guildford bus station is also reverse out, but don’t get people trying to walk across it. The surfaces are kept distinct so roadway can’t be confused with pedestrian short cut

The only one I can think of in London is Kingston Cromwell Road and again no need for pedestrians to enter the bus manoeuvre area, but I think all buses using it are required to have reversing beepers.

But to be honest the low Frequency at Maesteg might be a problem as it could be perceived as a little used roadway that is easy to cross

 

[Dai Corner]

I seem to remember that buses used to have horns that sounded while they were reversing.

I wonder why they no longer do?

 

[AndrewE]

Indeed. Maybe it should be a planning condition that after a few months the developers have to add paving on impromptu paths?

About 25 years ago (as a member of a formally-appointed Agenda 21 transport committee) I suggested exactly this, but on public open space where a path was obviously needed... a planning officer said "Absolutely not! Before you know it we will have requests for paths everywhere!"
I thought his attitude was about 20 years out of date even then, and almost gave up hope. I am afraid the same attitude still prevails though.

 

[PG]

I seem to remember that buses used to have horns that sounded while they were reversing.

I wonder why they no longer do?

They all have them where I am in Stagecoach and First territory.

 

[Geordie driver]

I have reversed many thousands of time from a saw tooth bus station, mainly the last and the current version of Newcastle Haymarket.

No problem reversing with passengers on; why anyone would think this is wrong is beyond me, it just means fewer people on the road to hit.

You are effectively reversing blind, there are huge gaps the mirrors can't hope to cover. I have walked back to look in the past but by the time you get back in the cab someone could be behind you.

Cameras might help, but then buses take a huge bashing on service work. Unless it was a legal requirement the companies would not maintain them. Drivers would then be entitled to refuse to drive a bus without working cameras.

The current version of the Haymarket is ideal, there is little point in crossing over it as it has been designed that way. You do get the odd enthusiast taking pictures which is possibly one of the reasons some drivers are not keen on enthusiasts.

 

[_toommm_]

Otley bus station is of the sawtooth design, but in the day, has an employee of I believe First guiding buses out when they reverse (although I believe they guide out all buses). Is that a fairly unique example?

 

[Adtrainsam]

Otley bus station is of the sawtooth design, but in the day, has an employee of I believe First guiding buses out when they reverse (although I believe they guide out all buses). Is that a fairly unique example?

Poole Bus Station has marshalls/banksmen from Morebus during the day and they guide all buses; it’s quite an effective operation.

 

[Simon75]

Newcastle Under Lyme had banksman up until a few years ago, but they don't anymore

 

[PG]

Otley bus station is of the sawtooth design, but in the day, has an employee of I believe First guiding buses out when they reverse (although I believe they guide out all buses). Is that a fairly unique example?

Whoever owns and runs a bus station can set a charge for users. In most cases the owner is also the main user so they don't effectively pay anything; only other operators pay for using the bus station. Thus the banksman will assist all buses reversing as they have paid for his (or her) services.

 

[johnnychips]

Manchester Chorlton St coach station had a banksman last time I used it. On the other hand Barnsley does not: there is no reason for people to be behind the buses, and the area for reversing is very large.

 

[Leeds1970]

Otley bus station is of the sawtooth design, but in the day, has an employee of I believe First guiding buses out when they reverse (although I believe they guide out all buses). Is that a fairly unique example?

Otley is a proper oddball - the bus station is served by first, connexions and Transdev.
It is owned by a property company (cant remember the name) leased by FirstBus (who provide the banksman at no charge to the other companies)
and metro provide the fixtures such as the solar powered bus stop flags, timetables and cctv.

 

[Ken H]

Otley is a proper oddball - the bus station is served by first, connexions and Transdev.
It is owned by a property company (cant remember the name) leased by FirstBus (who provide the banksman at no charge to the other companies)
and metro provide the fixtures such as the solar powered bus stop flags, timetables and cctv.

The old bus station was biult by a company set up by West Yorkshire Road Car Co (WYRCC) and Samuel Ledgard. It will have become 100% WYRCC when they acquired Ledgards in 1967. It will have passed to Yorkshire Rider when they bought the Leeds and Bradford part of WYRCC.
Not sure when it was sold to the Miller Group who reduced it in size so they could build their shopping centre.