Manchester-Clitheroe services...why never beyond?

[Ken H]

And my point was that one extra unit would allow various permutations of leisure service - for example, you could extend alternate trains from Clitheroe to Ribblehead, journey time 50 minutes or so, with an additional ECS from King St to Clitheroe to form the up train whose unit has been "stolen." Obviously depending on paths at Hellifield. Or you could run an independent service Blackburn - Ribblehead every 3 hours. Other destinations are available

or send 2 unis to Clitheroe, detach one to go to Ribblehead, the other goes back to Manc. On return, the ribblehead goes on to Manc and there is a spare unit at Clinteroe to for the next service to Ribblehead. So you need 1 unit and 1 crew.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And my point was that one extra unit would allow various permutations of leisure service - for example, you could extend alternate trains from Clitheroe to Ribblehead, journey time 50 minutes or so, with an additional ECS from King St to Clitheroe to form the up train whose unit has been "stolen." Obviously depending on paths at Hellifield. Or you could run an independent service Blackburn - Ribblehead every 3 hours. Other destinations are available

I think just another separate DalesRail would make more sense, separate from the Clitheroes. Pretty much the entire use case is going for a day hike for which you want a reasonably early outward and a sort-of-dinnertime return.

 

[Hugo3000]

I'd also like to see regular Clitheroe - Preston trains too; direct connections to the WCML at Preston would make trips to London and Glasgow so much easier and convenient.

Is a six minute out and nine minute return, same platform connection at Blackburn really 'so' inconvenient?

 

[30907]

or send 2 unis to Clitheroe, detach one to go to Ribblehead, the other goes back to Manc. On return, the ribblehead goes on to Manc and there is a spare unit at Clinteroe to for the next service to Ribblehead. So you need 1 unit and 1 crew.

Same basic idea, though Clitheroe isn't signalled for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is a six minute out and nine minute return, same platform connection at Blackburn really 'so' inconvenient?

On the basis that you can't have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere and Manchester is likely to be a more popular destination than Preston, I can't see much wrong with this.

Same basic idea, though Clitheroe isn't signalled for it.

I still think a second "full" DalesRail on a Saturday (and possibly daily in school holidays if there's anything you can nick a unit off and get a crew from rest day working) would be of more value given the "use case". Yes, sure, popping to Settle or Appleby for lunch might be nice, but the biggest demand (in so much as a 153's worth is big) is going to be for a day hike, which means early to mid morning out and early evening return. I suspect this is why when DalesRail switched from two round trips to one a while back they kept the earlier out and later back - the mid-morning out and mid-afternoon back weren't anywhere near as well used. The Dales isn't really like the Lakes - it's rural hillwalking country rather than having lots of other "touristy" stuff to do - a bit more like Dartmoor than the Lakes perhaps.

It arguably might even be worth moving DalesRail from Sunday to Saturday, as because everything else starts later on a Sunday the only way for most people to connect to it if you don't live by one of the stations is by car. It might pick up more passengers if you could get there from elsewhere to connect to it.

 

[Philip]

I still think the railway itself would be quite a big attraction and enough to see an infrequent daily or Saturday service reasonably well loaded; it is a renowned railway route not just throughout the UK but in neighboring European countries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still think the railway itself would be quite a big attraction and enough to see an infrequent daily or Saturday service reasonably well loaded; it is a renowned railway route not just throughout the UK but in neighboring European countries.

The railway is attractive, yes, but if you're specifically out to ride trains as a thing then a quick TransPennine run is hardly unpleasant. I'm sure I recall there's some sort of day ranger for doing a North West loop of say Manchester-Leeds-Carlisle-WCML-Manchester? If not there should be, there's barely any of that circuit that isn't at least pleasant, and some of it is stunning. I'd personally say Shap is better than most of the S&C.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Good luck in making a passable business case for such extensions. Yes I know people will come straight back and say - "but post COVID the future is leisure" .....

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm sure I recall there's some sort of day ranger for doing a North West loop of say Manchester-Leeds-Carlisle-WCML-Manchester? If not there should be...

There's the "North West Round Robin" day ranger product. Essentially Preston->Carlisle via Penrith, then Carlisle->Leeds/Bradford via Settle and finally Leeds/Bradford->Preston via Blackburn.

Includes the Little North Western route via Wennington.

Validity includes Burnley Manchester Road but not any journeys to/from/via Manchester Stns! (Or to/from/via Clitheroe for that matter).

Price is £42.80.

 

[507020]

What is wrong with the “Upper Wensleydale Railway” proposal of reopening 6 miles of single track from Garsdale to Hawes, the largest population centre within the vicinity of the Settle - Carlisle line with the capability to reverse trains there, then extending all Manchester - Clitheroe services to Hawes, with the ability to connect between Leeds - Carlisle and Manchester - Hawes services anywhere between Hellifield and Garsdale? There would also be the tourist attraction of heritage Wensleydale Railway services extended to Hawes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is wrong with the “Upper Wensleydale Railway” proposal of reopening 6 miles of single track from Garsdale to Hawes, the largest population centre within the vicinity of the Settle - Carlisle line with the capability to reverse trains there, then extending all Manchester - Clitheroe services to Hawes, with the ability to connect between Leeds - Carlisle and Manchester - Hawes services anywhere between Hellifield and Garsdale? There would also be the tourist attraction of heritage Wensleydale Railway services extended to Hawes.

I'd love to see the WR extend to Garsdale (though I think Northallerton would be more of a priority, as it'd actually serve a useful public transport function then). But I can't see any financial case for doing what you suggest at all.

 

[507020]

I'd love to see the WR extend to Garsdale (though I think Northallerton would be more of a priority, as it'd actually serve a useful public transport function then). But I can't see any financial case for doing what you suggest at all.

Is it not already extended to Northallerton but not allowed to run there due to it being a busy station on the ECML? Either way I don’t see the point of running to Northallerton without running at least as far as Hawes. The town of Hawes has quite a significant population considering its location of over 1000 and this alone should justify a direct service to/from Garsdale, Ribblehead, Settle and Hellifield. If running that far it becomes a logical extension to extend to Clitheroe, being joined to the Manchester service. In the same way as the reopened Okehampton can serve as a gateway to Dartmoor, a reopened Hawes would be perfect as a gateway to the Yorkshire Dales from Manchester and permit all day Clitheroe - Hellifield services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it not already extended to Northallerton but not allowed to run there due to it being a busy station on the ECML? Either way I don’t see the point of running to Northallerton without running at least as far as Hawes. The town of Hawes has quite a significant population considering its location of over 1000 and this alone should justify a direct service to/from Garsdale, Ribblehead, Settle and Hellifield. If running that far it becomes a logical extension to extend to Clitheroe, being joined to the Manchester service. In the same way as the reopened Okehampton can serve as a gateway to Dartmoor, a reopened Hawes would be perfect as a gateway to the Yorkshire Dales from Manchester and permit all day Clitheroe - Hellifield services.

There's only a north curve onto the ECML, not a south one towards the station, and so it's not an easy one to solve. A station just outside Romanby would be possible, and I think they have done it temporarily before, but it's nowhere near either the current station or the town centre.

I'm not convinced what you suggest would really work - there are too many places to go in the Dales (the gateway could as easily be Settle, and Horton, while small, has a reasonable amount of accommodation and camping, given that it's the typical start for the Three Peaks), whereas there are only a few towns of any size surrounding Dartmoor. Hawes is nice, but it's also very small. Realistically, if you did want to spend subsidy on connecting Garsdale-Northallerton and the places along it, buses are probably the way, and indeed there is a Garsdale-Hawes bus: https://bustimes.org/services/113-gayle-garsdale-station-2 (I'm actually quite impressed it's daily including Sundays).

 

[S&CLER]

On the basis that you can't have direct trains from everywhere to everywhere and Manchester is likely to be a more popular destination than Preston, I can't see much wrong with this.



I still think a second "full" DalesRail on a Saturday (and possibly daily in school holidays if there's anything you can nick a unit off and get a crew from rest day working) would be of more value given the "use case". Yes, sure, popping to Settle or Appleby for lunch might be nice, but the biggest demand (in so much as a 153's worth is big) is going to be for a day hike, which means early to mid morning out and early evening return. I suspect this is why when DalesRail switched from two round trips to one a while back they kept the earlier out and later back - the mid-morning out and mid-afternoon back weren't anywhere near as well used. The Dales isn't really like the Lakes - it's rural hillwalking country rather than having lots of other "touristy" stuff to do - a bit more like Dartmoor than the Lakes perhaps.

It arguably might even be worth moving DalesRail from Sunday to Saturday, as because everything else starts later on a Sunday the only way for most people to connect to it if you don't live by one of the stations is by car. It might pick up more passengers if you could get there from elsewhere to connect to it.

Strongly agree. There was never any public transport connection from Southport (or Ormskirk, I imagine) in time for the earlier Dalesrail a few years ago, when, if I'm not mistaken, there were two trains running all the way to Carlisle. Whenever I used it or the second train, it had to be by getting a lift to Preston. But traffic was healthy from Blackburn and Clitheroe, because both trains called there at more convenient times. Of course I couldn't tell how many of those joining there had driven to the station. One train from Preston and one from Manchester would cater for demand adequately, possibly even joining the 2 units at Blackburn. I was once told by a member of the Manchester Ramblers that if they started from Chorlton Street at 8 am on Sunday to go north, they were still picking up in the northern suburbs half an hour or more later, so the train would have a time advantage. Saturday would also be a good choice, because most walking clubs go out on Sundays, either in car fleets or by coach.

 

[Marmaduke]

I'd love to see the WR extend to Garsdale (though I think Northallerton would be more of a priority, as it'd actually serve a useful public transport function then). But I can't see any financial case for doing what you suggest at all.

I would agree as regards the WR getting to Hawes, lovely as it sounds and has always been the stated aim, there cant even be a business case for crossing Apedale Beck at the west end of Redmire to get to Aysgarth!!
You mention Northallerton as a priority, but I dont share your opinion, as good as it sounds.
My reason is this.
The location of the WR station Northallerton West is nowhere near the ECML Station. It has no road access, or even cycle access for that matter, only by foot. There is no inter-connection between the two stations.
For me, priority would always be Leeming Bar as the important hub. WHY...because its less than a mile from a Service Area on the A1 Road, has parking, is on bus routes etc etc.
I think the WR Management may have cottoned on to the importance of this given the fabulous recent investment in the site, to the Station House, infrastructure, workshops etc.
Coming back to Hawes.....I'm always up for chasing a dream, but like many schemes, reality and doable dont always appear in the same sentence.
It comes down to money at the end of the day. Sadly Beeching was proven right on a number of occasions and dare I say it, whilst all closures were saddled onto him, as opposed to Earnest Marples, had it not been for what they did, the remaining railway of today wouldn't be what it is today?
Where does the line in the sand extend, when it comes to running a heritage railway or providing a public service?
Structures, such as tunnels, viaducts, bridges and extended p-way are expensive to maintain, not to mention insure.
We are blessed with a considerable amount of HR in this country in some wonderful locations and long may it continue, but adding questionable extensions, in majority of cases, will increase the financial burden and continued viability of many.

 

[507020]

dare I say it, whilst all closures were saddled onto him, as opposed to Earnest Marples, had it not been for what they did, the remaining railway of today wouldn't be what it is today?

It it hadn’t been for Beeching and/or Marples (with his other activities including building motorways) the British railway network certainly wouldn’t be the disjointed mess of missing links that it is today. It would be far greater than it is today, with many more places reachable by rail, which in itself is enough to generate traffic. Of course a more extensive public service is more expensive to operate, but should also generate more revenue if run properly. Beeching/Marples closed many lines which had the potential to be or make others profitable, depriving the taxpayer of revenue.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

It it hadn’t been for Beeching and/or Marples (with his other activities including building motorways) the British railway network certainly wouldn’t be the disjointed mess of missing links that it is today. It would be far greater than it is today, with many more places reachable by rail, which in itself is enough to generate traffic.

Discussing the impact of Dr. Beeching's cuts in the 1960's (yet again!) is perhaps more appropriate in a separate thread.

Here we are primarily discussing why there has been little or no passenger traffic scheduled beyond Clitheroe station (in the direction of Hellifield and beyond) since Clitheroe's re-opening in 1994.

 

[507020]

Discussing the impact of Dr. Beeching's cuts in the 1960's (yet again!) is perhaps more appropriate in a separate thread.

Here we are primarily discussing why there has been little or no passenger traffic scheduled beyond Clitheroe station (in the direction of Hellifield and beyond) since Clitheroe's re-opening in 1994.

Well the reality of it is that the whole line from Blackburn to Hellifield was closed to passengers by Beeching in the 1960s and only reopened south of Clitheroe in 1994, leaving the line from Clitheroe to Hellifield to remain closed to passengers.

I suspect the reasons include a shortage of DMUs and crews to run additional services north of Clitheroe, a need for services from Appleby to run to Skipton and Leeds as opposed to Clitheroe and Manchester and nowhere suitable short of Appleby to turn back these non-existent DMUs, which in my mind makes the Hawes branch the ideal solution given additional rolling stock for Northern as well as providing local connectivity to a relatively large town in the Yorkshire Dales.

 

[Ken H]

Well the reality of it is that the whole line from Blackburn to Hellifield was closed to passengers by Beeching in the 1960s and only reopened south of Clitheroe in 1994, leaving the line from Clitheroe to Hellifield to remain closed to passengers.

I suspect the reasons include a shortage of DMUs and crews to run additional services north of Clitheroe, a need for services from Appleby to run to Skipton and Leeds as opposed to Clitheroe and Manchester and nowhere suitable short of Appleby to turn back these non-existent DMUs, which in my mind makes the Hawes branch the ideal solution given additional rolling stock for Northern as well as providing local connectivity to a relatively large town in the Yorkshire Dales.

They could turn round at Settle Jct (Like they do in winter). or Blea Moor. I suspect Garsdale can turn trains. but I bet most would be wanting to get off at Settle or horton. and those that dont can change onto a Leeds - Carlisle train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well the reality of it is that the whole line from Blackburn to Hellifield was closed to passengers by Beeching in the 1960s and only reopened south of Clitheroe in 1994, leaving the line from Clitheroe to Hellifield to remain closed to passengers.

I suspect the reasons include a shortage of DMUs and crews to run additional services north of Clitheroe, a need for services from Appleby to run to Skipton and Leeds as opposed to Clitheroe and Manchester and nowhere suitable short of Appleby to turn back these non-existent DMUs, which in my mind makes the Hawes branch the ideal solution given additional rolling stock for Northern as well as providing local connectivity to a relatively large town in the Yorkshire Dales.

You can turn trains back at Ribblehead, there used to be (may still be) an evening commuter service from Leeds that only goes/went that far. I don't know for certain but suspect it reverses on the single line over the viaduct. Probably other places too. It's not a busy line so you don't need turnback platforms to the same extent.

It would however be a lot cheaper to build a 4-car reversing siding anywhere you liked than a line out to Hawes!

 

[507020]

You can turn trains back at Ribblehead, there used to be (may still be) an evening commuter service from Leeds that only goes/went that far. I don't know for certain but suspect it reverses on the single line over the viaduct. Probably other places too. It's not a busy line so you don't need turnback platforms to the same extent.

It would however be a lot cheaper to build a 4-car reversing siding anywhere you liked than a line out to Hawes!

You can of course make use of the single line over the viaduct (ordinarily a bottleneck!) as a turnback facility, although I believe trains have to run all the way to the signal box on the other side, but if as you say a dedicated turnback facility is not required on a quiet line, a line to Hawes would provide a lot more than just a turnback facility.

 

[Ken H]

You can of course make use of the single line over the viaduct (ordinarily a bottleneck!) as a turnback facility, although I believe trains have to run all the way to the signal box on the other side, but if as you say a dedicated turnback facility is not required on a quiet line, a line to Hawes would provide a lot more than just a turnback facility.

has anyone got a diagram of the current track layout at Blea Moor, please?

 

[43096]

has anyone got a diagram of the current track layout at Blea Moor, please?

The Sectional Appendix shows this:

 

[Neptune]

You can turn trains back at Ribblehead, there used to be (may still be) an evening commuter service from Leeds that only goes/went that far. I don't know for certain but suspect it reverses on the single line over the viaduct. Probably other places too. It's not a busy line so you don't need turnback platforms to the same extent.

It would however be a lot cheaper to build a 4-car reversing siding anywhere you liked than a line out to Hawes!

19.49 ex Leeds EWD. It runs to Blea Moor box to turn around. There’s also an SO morning service which runs up empty from Skipton returning to Leeds in the path of the first train SX from Carlisle.

 

[Bevan Price]

Is it not already extended to Northallerton but not allowed to run there due to it being a busy station on the ECML? Either way I don’t see the point of running to Northallerton without running at least as far as Hawes. The town of Hawes has quite a significant population considering its location of over 1000 and this alone should justify a direct service to/from Garsdale, Ribblehead, Settle and Hellifield. If running that far it becomes a logical extension to extend to Clitheroe, being joined to the Manchester service. In the same way as the reopened Okehampton can serve as a gateway to Dartmoor, a reopened Hawes would be perfect as a gateway to the Yorkshire Dales from Manchester and permit all day Clitheroe - Hellifield services.

With a population of just over 1100, Hawes is nowhere near large enough to support a regular rail service.

 

[Ken H]

The Sectional Appendix shows this:
View attachment 110742

Thanks. I reckon ribblehead terminators reverse in the up goods line.

 

[507020]

With a population of just over 1100, Hawes is nowhere near large enough to support a regular rail service.

But how many people would then visit Hawes? The service would also equally be supported by Ribblehead (population 0), Settle, Hellifield, Clitheroe, Blackburn and Bolton, which combined are certainly large enough to support a regular rail service and in fact support 2.

 

[tbtc]

Given the huge subsidies needed to sustain the Northern network pre-Covid (and that it looks like various routes won't bounce back to their pre-Covid levels of service), this is all clearly speculative, even before you start coming up with through trains from Southport to Hawes

However, whilst any Northern discussion tends to involve a lot of optimistic crayon use, it feels worth questioning why the route north of Clitheroe didn't get some resources sprinkled on it when Arriva's franchise took over from SercoNed

The reason I say this is that the Arriva franchise seemed to deliver more "goodies" to the fringes. Good news for Bishop Auckland/ Bentham/ Barrow/ Bridlington/ Buxton but not much of a frequency increase for Barnsley/ Bolton/ Bingley

The one big "B" place that was to benefit was Bradford (new services to Nottingham, Manchester Airport, Hull), but the franchise seemed to be "business as usual" for most urban routes with some "cherries" awarded to the rural routes

Maybe this was because Arriva knew that putting one additional DMU on a rural route was a good way of generating positive headlines, when a single additional unit into a big conurbation wouldn't get talked about so much in the city newspapers

Maybe it was because Arriva knew that the franchise was weighted disproportionately towards the "stakeholders" in rural areas. You know the way that US politicians target certain states above others, since their Electoral College representation means you "game the system" by focussing on New Hampshire rather than New Jersey)?

Maybe the congested railway (where Northern play second/third/fourth fiddle at bottlenecks like Stockport Viaduct) meant there was very little scope to improve things, other than on quiet brnachlines?

Anyhow, I mention this because, if you were preparing a franchise bid for Northern then I'd be tempted to throw a DMU at the line north of Clitheroe - let's say a bi-hourly extension of the Manchester services through to Ribblehead - no new paths required through bottlenecks, no new infrastructure required, but lots of positive news about "providing rural towns with a through train to Manchester" and also "encouraging Mancunians to bring their tourist money to the Dales" - it works both ways

And, whilst it'd be loss making and not my priority, I could certainly understand if Arriva had decided to bestow an extra DMU on this neck of the woods by extending every other Manchester train north of Clitheroe - I'm not saying it'd be busy, I'm not saying it'd make money, I'm not saying that it deserved resources that could be used on something "boring" like extending a couple of two coach diagrams to three instead, but it seems a better idea than some of the things that Arriva were going to focus resources on (Bentham etc)

 

[Tomnick]

Thanks. I reckon ribblehead terminators reverse in the up goods line.

They reverse on the Down Main. There's not a signalled move into the Up Goods Loop from Settle, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Ken H]

They reverse on the Down Main. There's not a signalled move into the Up Goods Loop from Settle, if I'm not mistaken.

So reversing trains there during the day is a no-no then. Unless its a very quick turn round.