Manchester & North West Transformation Programme

[ABB125]

But in principle, it's no different to what has happened on plenty of other routes in the past, e.g. ScotRail replacing 170s with HSTs.

Yes, but in that case there was (I'm led to believe) a significant upgrade in passenger experience.
The same cannot be said of class 331/323

 

[pemma]

That explains the "EMU swaps" in the embedded chart.
Not sure about the "DMU swaps" though.

Could someone explain the embedded chart for those of us who haven't created an account for Railway Gazette?

But in principle, it's no different to what has happened on plenty of other routes in the past, e.g. ScotRail replacing 170s with HSTs.

Wasn't that part of a plan to replace modernish trains not really designed for long distances with older refurbished Intercity trains?

If I had to do an hour on a rail replacement bus I wouldn't complain if I got put on a 15 year old coach over a 2 year old bus. If on the other hand there was a 2 year coach outside the station and I got told I had to go on a 15 year old bus, I wouldn't be impressed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could someone explain the embedded chart for those of us who haven't created an account for Railway Gazette?

All you have to do is register...

The embedded charts appear to be Powerpoint slides from the Manchester Recovery Task Force with Network Rail and DfT logos on them.

 

[pemma]

As swap of diesel units is under train lengthening, I would guess it relates to 3 car trains moving to lines where trains are usually 2 car and pairs of 2 car trains replacing the 3 car trains.

 

[CJ]

Noted the recent posting makes mention of platform extensions on the Styal Line, it is not all that long ago that brand new-style platforms were constructed at some stations on that line. What stations on that line are in need of the stated extension?

To my knowledge: Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury and Gatley.

All these stations had originally long (concrete) platforms, but were shortened when they were reconstructed/rebuilt into new (accessible) platforms in the early/mid 2000s.

Heald Green and Styal I believe still retain their original platform lengths (the former can definitely accommodate 6-car 331s easily).

 

[LOL The Irony]

Heald Green and Styal I believe still retain their original platform lengths (the former can definitely accommodate 6-car 331s easily).

Yes, Heald Green was the first/last calling point on the Airport - Blackpool & Cumbria services, at least before May 2018. It's always struck me as odd looking back, as East Didsbury would seem like a more suitable calling point.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Out of interest - I’m guessing that the Cumbrian stations not extended all support 4x195 carriages already? It’s a shame that some work isn’t going into reopening some disused platforms at stations like Ulverston for 6 car operation.

 

[Halish Railway]

On the topic of the reconstructed stations on the Style line, I think it’s a shame that some of the rather disgusting stations around Greater Manchester can’t be reconstructed/heavily refurbished such as Kearsley, Belle View and Trafford Park.

Just compare Moses Gate and Farnworth with Kearsley, the difference in aesthetic pleasure and feeling of safety is stark.

 

[AMD]

I’m guessing that the Cumbrian stations not extended all support 4x195 carriages already?

Nope, at present if 2x 2car 195s work a Barrow service the rear unit has to be locked out of use between Lancaster and Barrow.

 

[WatcherZero]

On the topic of the reconstructed stations on the Style line, I think it’s a shame that some of the rather disgusting stations around Greater Manchester can’t be reconstructed/heavily refurbished such as Kearsley, Belle View and Trafford Park.

All three stations have received TfGM funding for improvements and are programmed for Customer Information Screen improvements during Q4 2023 with work to be carried out by Northern, this work has slipped from Q4 2022 due to wrangling between Dft/Rail Industry over legal agreements (likely refers to Dft taking direct control over Northern and who pays for what commitments).

 

[Greybeard33]

How will it go down in Blackpool if their shiny new electric trains get replaced with nearly 30 years old, slower, inferior interior units?

Blackpool users should count their blessings that they are at least keeping their 2tph service direct to Piccadilly. From December, Wigan loses its 1tph fast service direct to Piccadilly via Golborne on shiny new 195s and has to make do with 769s (older than 323s) on the slower route via Bolton, terminating at Oxford Road.

 

[childwallblues]

On the topic of the reconstructed stations on the Style line, I think it’s a shame that some of the rather disgusting stations around Greater Manchester can’t be reconstructed/heavily refurbished such as Kearsley, Belle View and Trafford Park.

Just compare Moses Gate and Farnworth with Kearsley, the difference in aesthetic pleasure and feeling of safety is stark.

GM PTE preferred to put its money in Metrolink.

 

[Purple Orange]

Does anyone have any views as to the impact as a result of additional platform(s) at Manchester Victoria?

How many platforms?

What services would be best using them? Scotland, Cumbria and North Wales perhaps?

 

[Greybeard33]

Does anyone have any views as to the impact as a result of additional platform(s) at Manchester Victoria?

How many platforms?

What services would be best using them? Scotland, Cumbria and North Wales perhaps?

The TfN document for the RNC meeting described it as

...new northwest platform at Manchester Victoria

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s4261/Manchester%20Blueprint%20for%20Services%20and%20Infrastructure.pdf

So one platform.

I would expect it will most likely be used to restore local services on the Atherton or Bolton lines that have been culled by the MRTF to reduce congestion in the Victoria through platforms. Wigan Wallgate - Victoria via Atherton and/or Preston - Victoria via Bolton.

I doubt there is any intention to divert the Scotland or Cumbria services away from the Airport. I suspect the medium term plan for the TfW N Wales service is to divert it to Piccadilly via Northwich and Stockport, thereby freeing up a path through Castlefield. This was originally proposed in MRTF Option C but delayed because of level crossing and crew training issues.

 

[childwallblues]

Platform extensions on the Bolton and Styal lines suggests that there is an intention to use 6-car 323 formations (no SDO) to replace 331s on the Blackpool - Manchester Airport services. This would enable a swap of 3-car 331s to Yorkshire in exchange for the 4-cars, as originally planned, with 6-car 331s on some Airedale/Wharfedale services to increase capacity.

If the 4-car 331s come west, they might be used on the Stoke line to increase capacity.

More likely to go back on Liverpool services from where they were sent to Yorkshire.

 

[snowball]

The TfN document for the RNC meeting described it as

...new northwest platform at Manchester Victoria

Once we know its exact location it will be fun to compare it with the former Exchange Platform 3, which together with the contiguous Victoria platform then known as 11 (now 3) made up the famously long platform.

 

[Greybeard33]

Once we know its exact location it will be fun to compare it with the former Exchange Platform 3, which together with the contiguous Victoria platform then known as 11 (now 3) made up the famously long platform.

Not really comparable as Exchange was to the southwest of Victoria. The new northwest platform will be beyond Platform 6 (previously 8), but further west than the old Platform 7, now buried under the Arena.

 

[wobman]

The TfN document for the RNC meeting described it as

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s4261/Manchester%20Blueprint%20for%20Services%20and%20Infrastructure.pdf

So one platform.

I would expect it will most likely be used to restore local services on the Atherton or Bolton lines that have been culled by the MRTF to reduce congestion in the Victoria through platforms. Wigan Wallgate - Victoria via Atherton and/or Preston - Victoria via Bolton.

I doubt there is any intention to divert the Scotland or Cumbria services away from the Airport. I suspect the medium term plan for the TfW N Wales service is to divert it to Piccadilly via Northwich and Stockport, thereby freeing up a path through Castlefield. This was originally proposed in MRTF Option C but delayed because of level crossing and crew training issues.

diverting all the TFW Manchester Airport services via Cheshire lines is fraught with problems, the route is lucrative financially for the TFW and it would be very expensive for them to implement.

There's a huge amount of traincrew training that would be required and TFW have a huge backlog of training from covid and there ongoing recruitment/ new traction training.

That's why the plan was put on the back-burner and has very little support from tfw and the Welsh government that have this franchise.

 

[Purple Orange]

The TfN document for the RNC meeting described it as

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s4261/Manchester%20Blueprint%20for%20Services%20and%20Infrastructure.pdf

So one platform.

I would expect it will most likely be used to restore local services on the Atherton or Bolton lines that have been culled by the MRTF to reduce congestion in the Victoria through platforms. Wigan Wallgate - Victoria via Atherton and/or Preston - Victoria via Bolton.

I doubt there is any intention to divert the Scotland or Cumbria services away from the Airport. I suspect the medium term plan for the TfW N Wales service is to divert it to Piccadilly via Northwich and Stockport, thereby freeing up a path through Castlefield. This was originally proposed in MRTF Option C but delayed because of level crossing and crew training issues.

I wonder why they are going for just one platform, when the Northern Hub was going for two? Unless it’s one island platform, with two tracks either side?

 

[td97]

So one platform.

Network Rail describe it as "Manchester Victoria West Bay Platforms". So multiple platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Network Rail describe it as "Manchester Victoria West Bay Platforms". So multiple platforms.

I'm slightly amused to be able to add this to the list of things I suggested that were comprehensively rubbished on here and now appear to be actually happening...

 

[Greybeard33]

Network Rail describe it as "Manchester Victoria West Bay Platforms". So multiple platforms.

Source?

 

[snowball]

I wonder why they are going for just one platform, when the Northern Hub was going for two? Unless it’s one island platform, with two tracks either side?

Did the Northern Hub plan include a firm proposal for extra platform(s) at Victoria? If so why weren't they built when the layout was modified as part of electrification to Liverpool and Preston and the Ordsall Chord? Or are you referring to the platforms that were proposed at Picc or at Salford Central?

 

[Purple Orange]

Did the Northern Hub plan include a firm proposal for extra platform(s) at Victoria? If so why weren't they built when the layout was modified as part of electrification to Liverpool and Preston and the Ordsall Chord? Or are you referring to the platforms that were proposed at Picc or at Salford Central?

I’m referring to Northern Hub, where two platforms at Victoria were proposed. Why weren’t they built? I can only guess the same reason why Piccadilly P15 & P16 and Oxford Rd remodelling did not happen.

 

[td97]

Source?

Internal system that I am unable to link to here

 

[snowball]

I’m referring to Northern Hub, where two platforms at Victoria were proposed. Why weren’t they built? I can only guess the same reason why Piccadilly P15 & P16 and Oxford Rd remodelling did not happen.

If two platforms at Victoria were indeed proposed as you say, then that's definitely not the reason they were not built. Network Rail put in an application to the DfT for an order under the Transport & Works Act for the works at Piccadilly and Oxford Road, it went to public inquiry, and the DfT have been sitting on it ever since. There was no such application for Victoria, and if the platforms would have been on railway land, none would have been required.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If two platforms at Victoria were indeed proposed as you say, then that's definitely not the reason they were not built. Network Rail put in an application to the DfT for an order under the Transport & Works Act for the works at Piccadilly and Oxford Road, it went to public inquiry, and the DfT have been sitting on it ever since. There was no such application for Victoria, and if the platforms would have been on railway land, none would have been required.

If they're going where I suspect they are, it is indeed railway land - the viaduct that presently buts up against the Arena building. You'd get up to three (two longer, one perhaps two or three-car) there with a bit of slewing and reinforcement/filling gaps on the viaduct, though it may well only be one they're actually building. One would be possible (at the very north side of the viaduct) with very little work at all other than any strengthening needed.

You can see the area here:

Manchester Victoria · Victoria Station Approach, Manchester M99 1ZW

★★★★☆ · Train station

www.google.com

I can't think where else a west-facing bay could go.

 

[cle]

I would hope for 2 platforms of reasonable length (fit a 6 car 331) vs 3 short ones. If they're aligned on the northern side, I would think maybe a reinstated Preston service (or any originating Blackburn services) would make sense. Some additional frequencies to Preston could no doubt be slotted in, and demand is there.

If Atherton did ever go the way of the Met, there would be even more scope for Bolton-bound services from them.

 

[mmh]

diverting all the TFW Manchester Airport services via Cheshire lines is fraught with problems, the route is lucrative financially for the TFW and it would be very expensive for them to implement.

There's a huge amount of traincrew training that would be required and TFW have a huge backlog of training from covid and there ongoing recruitment/ new traction training.

That's why the plan was put on the back-burner and has very little support from tfw and the Welsh government that have this franchise.

North Wales losing direct services to Warrington would be a very unpopular move and disastrous for connectivity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

North Wales losing direct services to Warrington would be a very unpopular move

Would it? Is there substantial commuting from west of Chester to Warrington? (The Northern Chester-Vic service would continue running via Warrington, wouldn't it?)

and disastrous for connectivity.

Where can one reach by changing at Warrington that one can't by changing at Liverpool, Chester, Crewe or Manchester?

(CLC local stations are not major destinations and the walk across Warrington is inconvenient)