Manchester Oxford Road Station Remodelling Scheme consultation: what do you think should happen?

[Class15]

Two year block. What does the freight do?

 

[jfollows]

Two year block. What does the freight do?

It’s not a two year block, it’s a two year station closure. Trains will continue to run through the rubble.

 

[Class15]

It’s not a two year block, it’s a two year station closure. Trains will continue to run through the rubble.

But the track layout looks to be changing too… there will need to be some kind of block, even if not two years.

 

[Sod]

But the track layout looks to be changing too… there will need to be some kind of block, even if not two years.

I would be surprised if the buildings weren't listed.

 

[jfollows]

I would be surprised if the buildings weren't listed.

The main station building is, but it doesn’t need to be touched.

Manchester Oxford Road Station (including platform structures), City Centre, Manchester

Manchester Oxford Road Station (including platform structures) is a Grade II listed building in City Centre, Manchester, England. See why it was listed, view it on a map, see visitor comments and photos and share your own comments and photos of this building.

britishlistedbuildings.co.uk

Maybe some “platform structures” need care, but I think the plans include them. Section 6.5 in the document I linked in post 2 above.

 

[Geeves]

Traincrew swaps are not an issue, its only paperwork. Salford Crescent and Bolton have been mentioned.

As others have said you have a platform already in the form of P1 that cannot be used for the majority of the time, trains are too long on 3 so 4 cannot be accessed if a 6 car is stopped in it for what ever reason. Even 3 does not see that much use generally

I do think it makes sense to keep 3 as a through platform though

 

[yorksrob]

Having the terminating platform in the middle will probably be very useful, since trains will no longer block both lines when leaving (could this allow for another train per hour to use it?)

To be honest, they already have the ability to use platform 3 in that way (and often do).

 

[30907]

I do think it makes sense to keep 3 as a through platform though

Presumably you mean the present 3
If it were connected at the East end to the Westbound track (rather than the Eastbound as now), would that solve the problem of signal overlaps?

 

[Geeves]

Presumably you mean the present 3
If it were connected at the East end to the Westbound track (rather than the Eastbound as now), would that solve the problem of signal overlaps?

Yes apologies for 3 read the new 2!

You are likely right and that is the reason why it has no connection at that end, without extra additions on the viaduct its going to be impossible to not keep the current set up, so that would somewhat defeat the object

 

[jfollows]

Presumably you mean the present 3
If it were connected at the East end to the Westbound track (rather than the Eastbound as now), would that solve the problem of signal overlaps?

The present platform 3 does not block long trains from using platform 4, it's only long trains using platform 4 which prevent long trains in platform 3 being cleared to MP418. So using platform 3 today as a bay platform also is fine, because the overlap beyond MP418 will clear after a timeout.
It's an operational inconvenience, but it can be worked with. The same sort of thing could be built into the new design (for new platform 2) if wanted, although there may be greater space constraints than today.
But having a buffer stop in the new plan means that there is no overlap at all, and no delay waiting for a timeout for the new platform 1 in the same way.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes apologies for 3 read the new 2!

You are likely right and that is the reason why it has no connection at that end, without extra additions on the viaduct its going to be impossible to not keep the current set up, so that would somewhat defeat the object

Is that what you really meant?

 

[The Planner]

But the track layout looks to be changing too… there will need to be some kind of block, even if not two years.

Xmas, Easter, Sundays when Trafford Park isnt operating. Single line working.

 

[Class15]

Xmas, Easter, Sundays when Trafford Park isnt operating. Single line working.

Very clever. Always just about a way out it seems!

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the track layout looks to be changing too… there will need to be some kind of block, even if not two years.

I wonder if it might actually be possible to build it in two halves which might make it possible to just have a weekend or two to connect things up? With 4 platforms at the moment you could work on one side closing two platforms without affecting the other two.

I wonder will everything call at Deansgate to partly substitute and avoid overcrowding at Piccadilly?

 

[DJH1971]

What is likely to happen to the Liverpool (via CLC) to Manchester Oxford Road services?

Are they going to be extended to Piccadilly or stopped at Deansgate?

 

[Meerkat]

How can the neighbouring stations cope for two years?!
For all that inconvenience would have been nice if they had managed to get a new access for people to/from the south.

 

[CdBrux]

How can the neighbouring stations cope for two years?!
For all that inconvenience would have been nice if they had managed to get a new access for people to/from the south.

I noticed, at least on google maps, it's address is New Wakefield Street which is to the south!

 

[158756]

It does seem a lot of effort for not very much.

Surely having selective door opening would achieve the 8 carriage trains without the cost and disruption ?

Agreed. Two years of disruption and no doubt an insane amount of money for what seem like very questionable benefits.

In principle it's OK but it removes any ability to ditch or work around a problematic train in the area without messing about shunting at Piccadilly.

I think it will remove a lot of flexibility given how often trains are abandoned there at present.

Network Rail claim it will improve flexibility. The press release even claims it will support an increase in train frequency. But I really have doubts about how these plans will fare when they meet the real world. As various posters have said, how can a two platform layout be more flexible when trains are stuck waiting for crew, or have a problem with the train or whatever else?

I think there's at least as good a chance that the new layout turns out to be unreliable and services will get cut again as a result.

 

[MatthewHutton]

2 platforms is incredibly tight. Ideally you would want 4 but 3 through platforms would be OK.

Perhaps the warrington stopping train should go to Manchester Victoria or carry on beyond Piccadilly

It does seem a lot of effort for not very much.

Surely having selective door opening would achieve the 8 carriage trains without the cost and disruption ?

Selective door opening is really for small stations. Not big ones like Manchester Oxford Road.

 

[Efini92]

It does seem a lot of effort for not very much.

Surely having selective door opening would achieve the 8 carriage trains without the cost and disruption ?

I ditto that, what benefit does lengthening the platforms to 8 cars actually achieve?

 

[Halish Railway]

2 platforms is incredibly tight. Ideally you would want 4 but 3 through platforms would be OK.

Perhaps the warrington stopping train should go to Manchester Victoria or carry on beyond Piccadilly


Selective door opening is really for small stations. Not big ones like Manchester Oxford Road.

In practice there are currently two through platforms given that platform 1 isn't used due to accessibility issues and platform 3 can't be used by anything longer than 4 coaches when a six car train is occupying platform 4. Nowadays all the service groups using the through platforms at Oxford Road have at least some trains that are worked by 6 coach trains. The Warrington stopper can't get to Victoria without a reversal at Oxford Road.

I do think that this whole scheme will be very beneficial as in reality it doesn't reduce day-to-day capacity at Oxford Road alone, instead making running longer trains more practical and reducing signalling headways. However, it needs to be done in conjunction with platforms 15 and 16 at Piccadilly to make the Castlefield Corridor genuinely reliable by allowing trains to dwell at Piccadilly for more than two minutes.

I ditto that, what benefit does lengthening the platforms to 8 cars actually archive?

Better distribution of passengers throughout the train and platform which in turn has the benefit of decreasing dwell times.

 

[mr_jrt]

Random thoughts from someone with no knowledge of the area...

Could P1 be widened by cantilevering out over the road? It only needs to support passengers, not trains. Looks like it would be pretty easy to lengthen the platform westwards, too. P4 can be extended as planned, by abolishing P5. That gets you two good 8-car through platforms.

Would severing the links on the eastern end from P2&3 solve the overlap issues? That would give you two 6 car terminal platforms in the middle, removing the conflicts.

Could there be any scope to widen the viaduct west of the platforms to give enough room to extend P2&3 westwards? The space to the north is obviously in use as a road, but it looks quite wide, with parking bays on both sides. Is there scope for narrowing the road? Would seem on the surface you could gain the required width by just removing the parking bays and having a normal single carriageway.

 

[Efini92]

Better distribution of passengers throughout the train and platform which in turn has the benefit of decreasing dwell times.

Of all the trains that use Oxford road it’s only the 4 car 331’s that will be able to use 8 car formation.

 

[Halish Railway]

Of all the trains that use Oxford road it’s only the 4 car 331’s that will be able to use 8 car formation.

At the moment yes but in the future there will most likely be longer trains to keep up with growing demand. Huddersfield for example is being rebuilt with 200m long platforms so it’s logical to assume that the trains currently being tendered for the TransPennine Route upgrade will be of this length. By the time this project is done we’ll know what has been ordered, but I’m willing to bet that they will close to 200 meters in length.

The Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh services keep on being mentioned of being in need to extend to 7 coaches as the current 5 car 397s keep getting busier.

 

[yorksrob]

Selective door opening is really for small stations. Not big ones like Manchester Oxford Road.

Even Charing Cross has signs for people to move down the train to alight, so its big stations as well.

At the moment yes but in the future there will most likely be longer trains to keep up with growing demand. Huddersfield for example is being rebuilt with 200m long platforms so it’s logical to assume that the trains currently being tendered for the TransPennine Route upgrade will be of this length. By the time this project is done we’ll know what has been ordered, but I’m willing to bet that they will close to 200 meters in length.

The Manchester Airport to Glasgow/Edinburgh services keep on being mentioned of being in need to extend to 7 coaches as the current 5 car 397s keep getting busier.

How many modern carriages would that be, out of interest ?

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Not exactly local, so could be completely wrong, but do they really need the bay platform? If they were to add 15 and 16 at Piccadilly, surely they could easily extend those services to somewhere in or just outside of suburban Manchester like Stalybridge or Hadfield?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even Charing Cross has signs for people to move down the train to alight, so its big stations as well.



How many modern carriages would that be, out of interest ?

The HS2 units are 8x25m, if that's any use.

 

[yorksrob]

The HS2 units are 8x25m, if that's any use.

Thanks, so we're talking eight modern carriages. Really wouldn't be the end of the world to have the last two not open.

 

[Falcon1200]

I wonder will everything call at Deansgate to partly substitute and avoid overcrowding at Piccadilly?

That would be sensible, along with free travel for rail ticket holders on the tram between Deansgate and Manchester city centre.

how can a two platform layout be more flexible when trains are stuck waiting for crew,

At such a crucial location crew changes should be minimised, if not eliminated altogether.

 

[jfollows]

Deansgate currently gets closed at weekends on the run-up to Christmas because it gets “too busy” so on that logic it’d also be closed when Oxford Road is closed for two years. I wouldn’t put it past them.