Manchester Piccadilly to Chester Thursday 20/07/2023

[markymark2000]

I'm very aware of the dispatch procedures everywhere, in all honesty I don't disagree with most of what you are saying, the RA system at Piccadilly isnt my favourite, Im just explaining the reason it can't just be done on these strike days and isn't something that TFW can just do.
Self dispatch was actually looked at at Stockport, Crewe, Warrington and a few other stations during The worst of the Avanti meltdowns a couple of years back but was ruled out on safety grounds.
At the end of the day a train returning ecs is still costing a path, fuel and its fully crewed so the Management are unlikely to be too keen on it either.

Avanti I would argue is different because the trains are longer and the guard in inside the train with no way of seeing outside of the train. It relies more upon outside eyes to ensure that things are safe. TFW the cab doors have drop down windows so that the guard can look out and ensure things are still safe (And you will often see guards with their head out the window to check everything is safe). That isn't an option with Avanti. It's far harder for Avanti trains to safely self dispatch in comparison to a smaller 2-3 car unit.

At picc and vic you can’t even self dispatch ECS, you still need a dispatcher to give you the R/RA so it’s nothing to do with putting passengers last. In fact it’s probably the safest way to dispatch which is for the benefit of passengers on busy platforms.

Key word has been highlighted. Busy. I will add to that, where there is a larger risk than normal that without platform staff, something could go badly wrong (Taking into account the amount of stations which have self dispatch). A quiet platform, quiet trains, it's no different to dispatching at Newton Le Willows or Earlestown. Given the Chester trains and the Marches would be the only trains in Manchester Piccadilly and given they wouldn't call at a number of stops along the way, they aren't likely to be crush loaded but busy enough to sustain themselves because of the longer distance passengers (those going to Shrewsbury and Cardiff having a much nicer journey than normal without the shorter distance passengers between Manchester and Crewe and Crewe & Shrewsbury)

Why do you think the staff are on strike?

Suggesting that essential railway safety roles are removed is totally the opposite attitude to what the strikes are seeking to maintain.

I am not suggesting it is removed entirely as I have highlighted that dispatchers have their place in a lot of cases. If it is quieter though (as TFW normally is on strike day) and the difference is trains being able to run versus not being able to run, that should be reviewed. This is one of the key ways in which Southern driver only operation was promoted to people. 'Run things like it is done elsewhere (in Southerns instance it was saying other lines run without guards, in this instance it's dispatching trains the same as is done at almost every other station on the network) with less cancellations due to a staff availability'.

 

[craigybagel]

It really doesn't seem fair to blame TfW over this.

The rules are, all services departing from Manchester Piccadilly require a dispatcher, even (as someone else mentioned above) ECS services. TfW didn't make the rules, they just have to follow them. There is no provision for ignoring them just because it suits - and speaking as a former dispatcher and guard, Piccadilly is not the kind of place you want to bend the rules at, especially on a day of disruption.

As TfW only run 3 trains an hour from Piccadilly, they sub contract dispatching to Northern. This is sensible - I'm sure if TfW recruited their own dispatchers host to dispatch their own trains there would be all kinds of complaints about a waste of money - plus you'd have a risk of delays to trains on Platforms 13 & 14 if the dispatcher is in the main shed with a South Wales train.

Owing to the strike, Northern are unable to provide dispatch staff outside of the period in the middle of the day covered by managers. This is outside the control of TfW. They're running services in the window available, and for the rest of the day they're running as close to a normal timetable as possible without serving the affected stations (despite the logistical hurdles this creates).

 

[Facing Back]

At picc and vic you can’t even self dispatch ECS, you still need a dispatcher to give you the R/RA so it’s nothing to do with putting passengers last. In fact it’s probably the safest way to dispatch which is for the benefit of passengers on busy platforms.

Can I ask what R/RA is please?

 

[Facing Back]

Why do you think the staff are on strike?

Suggesting that essential railway safety roles are removed is totally the opposite attitude to what the strikes are seeking to maintain.

Are the dispatch staff at NR managed stations such as Piccadilly NR employees or TOC employees?

 

[markymark2000]

It really doesn't seem fair to blame TfW over this. The rules are, all services departing from Manchester Piccadilly require a dispatcher, even (as someone else mentioned above) ECS services. TfW didn't make the rules, they just have to follow them.

If it's not a TFW rule, I don't blame TFW for it. I blame whoever came up with the stupid rule.

Owing to the strike, Northern are unable to provide dispatch staff outside of the period in the middle of the day covered by managers. This is outside the control of TfW.

Agreed but this raises questions over why it isn't Network Rail dispatchers like Birmingham New Street rather using lots of TOCs own dispatchers.

They're running services in the window available, and for the rest of the day they're running as close to a normal timetable as possible without serving the affected stations (despite the logistical hurdles this creates).

Arguably they aren't doing that though. Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Earlestown, Newton Le Willows. All open and unserved. Run to Newton Le Willows, reverse there then back to Chester. Or Earlestown Platform 3 at worst case scenario but ideally Newton Le Willows as it's an interchange and higher quality station.

Shrewsbury-Crewe small stations you could argue are open but where do you terminate a train there? Nantwich, continue ECS to Crewe and back?

Alternatively, TFW still have the contractual obligation to serve the stops. TFW are not on strike and therefore why aren't buses put on to serve some of these stations? Granted Warrington Bank Quay is shut because of the strike so that's a no go but Man Picc is still network rail owned and their staff aren't on strike so strictly speaking, the station is still able to be open. The buses outside don't need the station building to be open but the point being, it's not shut due to strike, more it's shut because there's no trains left so shut the station, save it becoming a hub for anti social behavior. As such, wouldn't be undermining the strike to run the buses. TFW has already done similar in Cardiff as when Network Rail signallers were on strike, TFW ran shuttle buses between Cardiff Central and Radyr so people could connect onto trains still use the service.

 

[MP393]

Are the dispatch staff at NR managed stations such as Piccadilly NR employees or TOC employees?

Piccadilly has TOC dispatchers. Northern dispatch Northern, TfW, XC, & EMR services. TPE/Carlisle security dispatch TPE services only and Avanti dispatch Avanti services only.

Birmingham New Street has in-house network rail dispatch staff, however I think that is one of the only few that does have NwR dispatchers.

 

[AverageJoe]

Can I ask what R/RA is please?

It means right away. It’s the method of dispatch and man picc / vic.

 

[Facing Back]

It means right away. It’s the method of dispatch and man picc / vic.

Thanks

 

[Krokodil]

Well, Yes. Even in places like Cardiff patronage is down significantly on strike days even though TFW aren't on strike and TFW are saying please note services may be busier so it all discourages people from travelling. The communications aren't going to the public to say 'TFW aren't on strike'.

As for the services, Oxford Road will be shut at night as it's a Northern managed station. Newton Le Willows and Earlestown don't close. Bank Quay can't be served as Avanti will close it meaning you are then left with a stopping pattern of Manchester Piccadilly, Newton Le Willows, Earlestown, Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby. You've got rid of some local travel opportunities and by not serving Bank Quay, you also aren't taking displaced Cheshire Lines passengers (those who normally would get on at Warrington Central).

Presumably you've not actually been on a TfW service to Manchester on a strike day then? Man Picc to Man Airport will be heaving, while passengers from Liverpool (after Northern's service has ended at 19:00) may go via Chester.

Presumably a similar situation applies at Warrington Bank Quay, otherwise they could terminate there?

Station is locked & left when unstaffed.

Arguably they aren't doing that though. Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Earlestown, Newton Le Willows. All open and unserved. Run to Newton Le Willows, reverse there then back to Chester. Or Earlestown Platform 3 at worst case scenario but ideally Newton Le Willows as it's an interchange and higher quality station.

Do TfW crews sign platform 3 at Earlestown then? And how is NLW an interchange on a strike day (after Northern's contingency service has ended at 19:00)? What services would people be interchanging to?

Thanks

In more detail, the system was originally developed by the Big Four to aid dispatch at long/curved platforms. Rather than driver trying to see the guard at the other end of the train, the dispatcher would respond to the green flag by activating an "R" or "RA" indication on the signal.

Indicators for Train Dispatch

 

[markymark2000]

Presumably you've not actually been on a TfW service to Manchester on a strike day then? Man Picc to Man Airport will be heaving, while passengers from Liverpool (after Northern's service has ended at 19:00) may go via Chester.

Airport would be shut after 7pm as it's ran by a TOC.

As I've already said umpteen times, if a station is ran by a TOC and it's a station which closes when the staff finish, you can't serve it during strike days. Only stations which are ran by a company which is unaffected by the strike or stations which can't be shut.

Do TfW crews sign platform 3 at Earlestown then? And how is NLW an interchange on a strike day (after Northern's contingency service has ended at 19:00)? What services would people be interchanging to?

Logically it would make sense for that to be included on route training as it's a way to turn trains around. If not, Newton Le Willows somehow. You could go in Manchester and swap ends but I was thinking of the cost of fuel.

As for the interchange, it's not just a rail interchange bus but am interchange between modes with the 22A and 34 buses serving the station and it also has a popular car park.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@parkender102. How did you get on, yesterday?