Killingworth
Established Member
Carrying the story forward from the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme thread. That had it's roots in antiquity, to the time when electrified passenger services ceased on 5th January 1970 between Manchester and Sheffield Victoria over Woodhead. That left the Hope Valley route to cope alone, by then reduced to a basic one train an hour and a few extras. The stopping service didn't go all the way and ran a basic 2 hourly service at best. Weekend services were worse. It seems few travelled between Sheffield and Manchester, far more to Leeds and London. But things have changed, at first for the worse, but gradually they've been getting better .
Only 3 regular trains an hour were crossing the complex Dore Station Junctions from the 4 tracked Sheaf Valley out of Sheffield. By 1969 all stopping services between Sheffield and Derby were withdrawn and the stations and over bridges mostly demolished. British Railways didn't only close branch lines. They were incentivised with grants to reduce track mileages to save on maintenance. Points had to go too, so the 4 tracks laid down the Sheaf Valley in 1900-04 were reduced back to 2. By the early 1980s rail travel looked doomed. The passenger number figures were heading only one way, down.
So it was deduced that by slewing tracks down the Sheaf Valley, simplifying further Dore Station Junction and singling the active tracks through Dore & Totley station to Dore West Junction it should cut about a minute off Midland mainline express times between Sheffield and Chesterfield. In early 1985 the engineering job was done.
On the other side of the Pennines the Hazel Grove chord was opened in May 1986 thus allowing speeded up journey times. The left and right hands of BR were pulling in opposite directions!
Meanwhile, elsewhere in British Railways marketing of Inter-City was beginning to have effect. In 1985 passenger numbers stopped falling and in 1986 they'd started to go back up, although that took a few years to be confirmed as a sustained trend. By the mid 1990s the singling through Dore was seen to have been a mistake. Cement and limestone aggregate train loads out of the Peak District were increasing and additional 'fast' passenger services were being added. Dore was starting it's new role as Sheffield South Parkway for Manchester bound commuters! It's possible that Railtrack picked up the first drafts of a British Railways redoubling plan when they were formed in 1994. They certainly had it in their plans for delivery in 2003/4 and Sheffield City Council delivered an enlarged car park to match anticipated increased demand in 2013 (full every weekday within 6 months).
So here we are. London and Leeds are certainly not the most booked destinations from Sheffield. (Sheffield isn't even the most booked destination from Dore either.) It's all about Manchester.
Here are the top 5 booked destinations from Sheffield in 2019-20, before Covid, and the most recent for 2022-23,
and for Dore & Totley 
Capacity is a very big issue, but so is reliability.
Currently both TPE and EMR run alternating hourly services via Stockport all day, Northern stopping all day hourly via Marple making a combined 3 trains an hour.
There are effectively 3 classes of service available.
First class hourly with TPE where you may get catering but more likely not as the trolley will only serve one half of a 6 coach Class 185 train- if that runs. If 3 the trolley may not get through the congested train.
Standard class half hourly combined TPE/EMR. Same difficulty with catering on a 6 car TPE train, and also for EMR if operating 4, 5 or 6 car Class 170s.
Economy class taking 20-25 minutes longer on Northern, usually 3 car 195s but stock can be randomly formed with 4 car 150/156 combinations or 2, 4, 5 or 6 car 195s.
The TPE services run from Cleethorpes to Liverpool and frequently experience delays east of Sheffield Midland and west of Manchester Piccadilly.
EMR services suffer similar difficulties beyond Sheffield from Nottingham and Norwich and also from Liverpool to Manchester.
Both fast operators are prone to blaming Northern stoppers for getting in their way. They in their turn may blame one for delaying them at one end only for them to be delaying the other later. Observation suggests it's a classic case of 6 of one against half a dozen of the others, with some freight added in!
The net result is that increasing numbers appear to be taking the stoppers from end to end attracted by cheaper fares in a modern train that only takes 20-25 minutes longer. If it weren't for weekend cancellations this service would be even more popular.
Removal of TPE's Manchester Airport direct service (although the reversal at Piccadilly rather negated much of the benefit) has dented that market, but there's no shortage of luggage being shifted, evidenced by blocked doorways on all 3 operators trains.
Are more seats needed on the trains between the two cities? YES! Leisure is growing fast evidenced by the number of large wheeled cases, back packs and bikes trying to get aboard all 3 TOC's train.
Is more luggage and bike space needed? YES
Is another fast service required in 2024? Maybe not yet.
Why not? Lack of platform and track capacity from Stockport into and through Manchester plus similar issues from Dore into and through Sheffield. They could take 10 years to resolve.
But there are simple short term options to make a material difference.
TPE are already trying to increase more of their 185 train lengths to 6 car from December. For much of the day over large parts of the route 3 are quite adequate - the carting fresh air conundrum! (5 car would be more practical with walk through and less 1st class, but that's another story.)
EMR are now operating a number of 5 and 6 car 170s. Same issue regarding fresh air as TPE but those trains help. (Nevertheless I've seen their first westbound 6 car Sunday service stopping at Dore on the last 3 weekends - full and standing without taking on another 30.)
Northern could make their standard consist up to 4 car quite easily subject to availability. Far less fresh air to carry, but revenue protection would suffer on an unstaffed line!
That should do for starters.
Curious to note how many supporters of Man City and Man Utd and Liverpool travel from east of the Pennines!
Only 3 regular trains an hour were crossing the complex Dore Station Junctions from the 4 tracked Sheaf Valley out of Sheffield. By 1969 all stopping services between Sheffield and Derby were withdrawn and the stations and over bridges mostly demolished. British Railways didn't only close branch lines. They were incentivised with grants to reduce track mileages to save on maintenance. Points had to go too, so the 4 tracks laid down the Sheaf Valley in 1900-04 were reduced back to 2. By the early 1980s rail travel looked doomed. The passenger number figures were heading only one way, down.
So it was deduced that by slewing tracks down the Sheaf Valley, simplifying further Dore Station Junction and singling the active tracks through Dore & Totley station to Dore West Junction it should cut about a minute off Midland mainline express times between Sheffield and Chesterfield. In early 1985 the engineering job was done.
On the other side of the Pennines the Hazel Grove chord was opened in May 1986 thus allowing speeded up journey times. The left and right hands of BR were pulling in opposite directions!
Meanwhile, elsewhere in British Railways marketing of Inter-City was beginning to have effect. In 1985 passenger numbers stopped falling and in 1986 they'd started to go back up, although that took a few years to be confirmed as a sustained trend. By the mid 1990s the singling through Dore was seen to have been a mistake. Cement and limestone aggregate train loads out of the Peak District were increasing and additional 'fast' passenger services were being added. Dore was starting it's new role as Sheffield South Parkway for Manchester bound commuters! It's possible that Railtrack picked up the first drafts of a British Railways redoubling plan when they were formed in 1994. They certainly had it in their plans for delivery in 2003/4 and Sheffield City Council delivered an enlarged car park to match anticipated increased demand in 2013 (full every weekday within 6 months).
So here we are. London and Leeds are certainly not the most booked destinations from Sheffield. (Sheffield isn't even the most booked destination from Dore either.) It's all about Manchester.
Here are the top 5 booked destinations from Sheffield in 2019-20, before Covid, and the most recent for 2022-23,
and for Dore & Totley Capacity is a very big issue, but so is reliability.
Currently both TPE and EMR run alternating hourly services via Stockport all day, Northern stopping all day hourly via Marple making a combined 3 trains an hour.
There are effectively 3 classes of service available.
First class hourly with TPE where you may get catering but more likely not as the trolley will only serve one half of a 6 coach Class 185 train- if that runs. If 3 the trolley may not get through the congested train.
Standard class half hourly combined TPE/EMR. Same difficulty with catering on a 6 car TPE train, and also for EMR if operating 4, 5 or 6 car Class 170s.
Economy class taking 20-25 minutes longer on Northern, usually 3 car 195s but stock can be randomly formed with 4 car 150/156 combinations or 2, 4, 5 or 6 car 195s.
The TPE services run from Cleethorpes to Liverpool and frequently experience delays east of Sheffield Midland and west of Manchester Piccadilly.
EMR services suffer similar difficulties beyond Sheffield from Nottingham and Norwich and also from Liverpool to Manchester.
Both fast operators are prone to blaming Northern stoppers for getting in their way. They in their turn may blame one for delaying them at one end only for them to be delaying the other later. Observation suggests it's a classic case of 6 of one against half a dozen of the others, with some freight added in!
The net result is that increasing numbers appear to be taking the stoppers from end to end attracted by cheaper fares in a modern train that only takes 20-25 minutes longer. If it weren't for weekend cancellations this service would be even more popular.
Removal of TPE's Manchester Airport direct service (although the reversal at Piccadilly rather negated much of the benefit) has dented that market, but there's no shortage of luggage being shifted, evidenced by blocked doorways on all 3 operators trains.
Are more seats needed on the trains between the two cities? YES! Leisure is growing fast evidenced by the number of large wheeled cases, back packs and bikes trying to get aboard all 3 TOC's train.
Is more luggage and bike space needed? YES
Is another fast service required in 2024? Maybe not yet.
Why not? Lack of platform and track capacity from Stockport into and through Manchester plus similar issues from Dore into and through Sheffield. They could take 10 years to resolve.
But there are simple short term options to make a material difference.
TPE are already trying to increase more of their 185 train lengths to 6 car from December. For much of the day over large parts of the route 3 are quite adequate - the carting fresh air conundrum! (5 car would be more practical with walk through and less 1st class, but that's another story.)
EMR are now operating a number of 5 and 6 car 170s. Same issue regarding fresh air as TPE but those trains help. (Nevertheless I've seen their first westbound 6 car Sunday service stopping at Dore on the last 3 weekends - full and standing without taking on another 30.)
Northern could make their standard consist up to 4 car quite easily subject to availability. Far less fresh air to carry, but revenue protection would suffer on an unstaffed line!
That should do for starters.
Curious to note how many supporters of Man City and Man Utd and Liverpool travel from east of the Pennines!
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