Manchester to Scotland Pre-TPE and earlier

[matt]

Before TPE took over CrossCountry ran a service via Manchester to Scotland. What sort of frequency did it used to be? Before Voyagers was it usually 47 hauled or a HST. Going back further was it the same under British Rail? Thanks for any help

 

[Class 170101]

I thought they used to use 86s on the WCML between Birmingham / Preston and Scotland with HSTs on the East Coast route.

 

[matt]

I thought they used to use 86s on the WCML between Birmingham / Preston and Scotland with HSTs on the East Coast route.

Via Manchester wasn't electrified then. I know 86 were used on the Birmingham services

 

[Masbroughlad]

47 then an 86 from....???

 

[chorleyjeff]

47 then an 86 from....???

When I used them it was a37 from Preston to, I guess, Stockport with electrics both sides.
Of course int he good old days it was 5XPs, Scots, Britannias and Clans with 5MTs doing some ofthe splits from Preston to Liverpool.

 

[30907]

From memory:
VXC ran Manchester-Scotland basically as a regular extension of Bham-MAN with Voyagers (I don't think HSTs).

Before that, from electrification to Glasgow in 1975, there was a much more limited Manchester-Scotland service (at first from Vic), some combining with a Liverpool portion at Preston and/or splitting at Carstairs.
IIRC there was an early Manchester-Glasgow which formed a Glasgow-Euston and therefore had a full set of the best stock.
There was also the short-lived Parkeston-Scotland in the early 80's.
I would have guessed 81-85 North of Preston rather than 86.
There has been a thread on this period before if you care to search.

The handful of trains concerned moved to Picc after the Ordsall Lane links were opened and I assume this is when through working across Manchester started; I can't remember the detail, but think they may have continued with Class 47 south of Manchester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

BR XC from the late 80s combined the South Coast/South West-Manchester services with Manchester-Scotland.
That meant using class 47s throughout rather than class 86/87 on the electric sections.
They were very slow as a result.
BR XC converted some of these services to HSTs, but I'm not sure if any of them ran via Manchester - certainly via Warrington.
158s were also introduced on separate Man Airport-Scotland services.
Virgin then ditched all that lot for Voyagers.

In the 60s services started from Victoria via Atherton and Chorley (avoiding Bolton), and also from Exchange via Worsley and Wigan NW.
The Liverpool portion started from either Lime St via St Helens or Exchange via Ormskirk.
Lots of faffing about joining/splitting at Preston and Carstairs...

In late BR days the Liverpool portions were scrapped, and later still splitting at Carstairs was dropped with trains running to either Glasgow or Edinburgh.

 

[sprinterguy]

In early Virgin Trains days, I don't recall class 47s being a common sight on Crosscountry workings on the Northern stretches WCML, except when the wires were switched off for engineering works. I was of the impression that even the "via Manchester" services from the South Coast to Scotland changed over to class 86s from 47s at Preston: Several photos of my own and many more taken by others seem to confirm that this was the case, and during 1990s Intercity days, too.

HSTs weren't common on the South Coast to Scotland WCML services, though they did have some workings. They were, however, regular fixtures on the handful of services that came up from the South West onto the WCML, such as the "Devon Scot" and "Cornish Scot".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looking at an excerpt from a 2000 timetable, during Monday to Friday there were arrivals at Manchester Piccadilly from Scotland at 12:15 (From Glasgow), 14:15 (From Edinburgh), 15:15 (From Aberdeen – Probably an HST?), 16:15 (From Glasgow) and 22:51 (From Edinburgh - Class 158). All of these continued on to Birmingham at the least, except for the 22:51 which ran through to Manchester Airport.

In addition, there is one direct Edinburgh to Liverpool train shown, which I believe was class 158 worked.

 

[Leylandlad]

In 1981 there were separate morning trains Manchester-Glasgow and Liverpool-Edinburgh.

The Glasgow train ran non-stop from Lancaster to Carlisle, (0904 off Lancaster from memory) the Edinburgh was a stopper. In 1982 I think, they were merged into 1 train which was always crowded.

Hard to believe now, but the Edinburgh train was the 1st northbound train of the day from Oxenholme (0927)!! Until an early Stockport-Glasgow train was introduced about 1985. That was usually 4-5 early Mk II's with a 47 running under the wires. Went on it once in 1986...what a sound going up Shap

 

[matt]

Thanks for all the info. Regarding the 158 services to/from Manchester airport where did they go to?

 

[D6975]

On 09/03/90 I travelled from Manchester Victoria to Carlisle on a Glas/Edin service, 47443 to Preston, 86228 to Carlisle.
The next day I travelled from Piccadilly to Preston behind 47459.
So in the spring of '90 there were long distance services from both Picc and Vic to Preston and beyond. I think this was just about the end of the Victoria service.

 

[driver9000]

Thanks for all the info. Regarding the 158 services to/from Manchester airport where did they go to?

Manchester Airport to Edinburgh. I regularly used the 158 operated services and these always called at Carstairs.

 

[Bevan Price]

Before Preston - Glasgow was electrified in 1974, but after the steam era, Manchester Victoria to Glasgow / Edinburgh through services were worked by Classes 40, 47 or 50.
When there were combined services from Manchester & Liverpool to Scotland, the portions south of Preston might also produce a Class 25.

In 1974, after electrification, trains were diesel hauled south of Preston, usually with Class 47 or 40. At Preston, a Class 08 was used to shunt Liverpool portions onto the rear of some Manchester - Scotland services. With the spread of eth coaching stock, use of Class 40 declined.

 

[snowball]

In 1981 there were separate morning trains Manchester-Glasgow and Liverpool-Edinburgh.

I think that was the pair of morning services introduced on the completion of electrification to Glasgow in 1974. There was cross-platform interchange between them at Preston, as the Liv-Ed arrived second but before the Man-Glasgow departed. Both had to have loco changes there and that was a very slow process - the layout was not as well adapted to it as at Crewe.

The track layout also prevented them from arriving at Preston simultaneously because they used platforms 3 and 4, and you can't have a movement from the down fast to platform 4 in parallel with one from the down slow to platform 3. If there had been an extra crossover they would have been able to run side by side from Euxton to Preston. I think this could also have been done with the existing layout if platforms 1 and 2 had been used.

The Man-Glasgow morning and Glasgow-Manchester evening trains were Mk 2f sets at a time when probably all other non-London Anglo-Scottish trains were of early Mk 2 or even Mk 1 stock. One set would do Vic - Glasgow - Euston - Picc one day while the other did Picc- Euston - Glasgow - Vic, then they would swap over for the next day.

 

[matt]

Manchester Airport to Edinburgh. I regularly used the 158 operated services and these always called at Carstairs.

After privatisation were these still operated by Virgin or someone else?