Manchester United’s rail freight dilemma

[chiltern trev]

https://www.railfreight.com/uk/2024/06/27/manchester-uniteds-rail-freight-dilemma/?gdpr=accept

The Euro 2024 tournament is moving to the knock-out stage. At the same time a freight and football knockout contest is kicking off in North West England. Jim Radcliffe, the new owner of Manchester United football club, wants to build a new stadium on the same site as the existing Old Trafford. The stadium would be even bigger than the existing arena, and may have up to 90000 seats. That’s an increase of more than 15000. Apparently, some Manchester United fans actually do attend games.

However, that vast new stadium plan presents public transport issues. The current network is already strained on match days and could not cope with that additional traffic. So, the football club has put forward a proposal that would involve building a new railway station just for their fans, with a huge security area able to cope with all those Red Devils.

As bitter a contest as any derby match​

However, Sir Jim’s proposals would certainly not fix it for rail freight. The plan has an uncompromising impact on operations in the Trafford area – where rail freight plays a significant role for the entire British network. Building the proposed new station and security compound would involve annexing at least one of two terminals already active on the site. Radcliffe’s company, INEOS, is already embrolied in another controversy, over proposals to scale back the Grangemouth oil refinery in Scotland, which could be a huge economic blow for the region.
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[vic-rijrode]

https://www.railfreight.com/uk/2024/06/27/manchester-uniteds-rail-freight-dilemma/?gdpr=accept

The obvious answer is to build the stadium in Guildford (where the majority of Utd fans live) with a branch off the Portsmouth Direct to serve it. Mind you putting the Wembley of the North there might be stretching a point a little, but hey...

 

[Elecman]

Who actually owns the freight terminal?

 

[fishwomp]

Looks to me from satellite map that there is plenty of room to give the stadium its own spur off the mainline. Let's hope they don't do a Coventry. Open the station but close it when there's a match on to prevent the 2-car train getting full. The lack of ambition to fix the freights running via Pic is still a problem, but a separate one.

 

[ainsworth74]

Looks to me from satellite map that there is plenty of room to give the stadium its own spur off the mainline. Let's hope they don't do a Coventry. Open the station but close it when there's a match on to prevent the 2-car train getting full. The lack of ambition to fix the freights running via Pic is still a problem, but a separate one.

As far as I'm aware when it was in use Northern ran a dedicated shuttle using at least one 323 perhaps even a double set. After all, outside of match days it didn't get served!

 

[6Gman]

Looks to me from satellite map that there is plenty of room to give the stadium its own spur off the mainline. Let's hope they don't do a Coventry. Open the station but close it when there's a match on to prevent the 2-car train getting full. The lack of ambition to fix the freights running via Pic is still a problem, but a separate one.

But that's exactly the problem.

Building an entire new station for huge crowds on perhaps 40-50 days of the year simply doesn't make sense.

Add in that the requirements of SkyTV means kick-off times will vary and that this extra traffic will feed into the Castlefield Corridor.

As I often say to reopening enthusiasts, "show me the timetable". Not in minute detail, but how do you propose to move 10, 15, 20k people in an hour?

And - frankly - the industrial and commercial needs of the region are more important than football.

 

[rower40]

And - frankly - the industrial and commercial needs of the region are more important than football.

How dare you, sir?
To the North-West (home of the quote about Football not being a matter of life and death, but much much more important than that) nothing can contribute to the industrial and commercial needs of the region more than 22 grown men chasing a ball.
It’s like telling an inhabitant of Henley-on-Thames that there’s something more important than rowing.

 

[30907]

And - frankly - the industrial and commercial needs of the region are more important than football.

Meanwhile, in the last couple of days I've read a serious suggestion that Trafford Park should be replaced by a (freight!) terminal at Port Salford by the M60/M62. Coihcidence? (Sorry, can't remember where I read it....)

 

[PTR 444]

How feasible would it be to move the freight terminal out of Manchester entirely? Ideally you would situate it in a location that doesn’t feed into the Castlefield corridor.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As I often say to reopening enthusiasts, "show me the timetable". Not in minute detail, but how do you propose to move 10, 15, 20k people in an hour?

They used to cope fine with the additionals to the stadium platform, and the only reason why the stadium platform closed was because of the security implications of it being so close to the stadium.

Although I do appreciate that Castlefield is busier than it used to be, it isn’t that much busier than it used to be.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Alternatively you could build an entirely new stadium at Port Salford (alongside the A J Bell rugby ground) and extend the Metrolink Trafford Centre line to serve it. Direct access from the M60 too. One of the many problems of rebuilding Old Trafford is that it is tightly constrained by the CLC line on one side.

 

[fishwomp]

But that's exactly the problem.

Building an entire new station for huge crowds on perhaps 40-50 days of the year simply doesn't make sense.

Why not? If this is a prerequisite to them getting permission to build/expand, then it would be paid for by the stadium quite willingly, or it's the alternative of them paying to improve some (but not enough) roads.

Add in that the requirements of SkyTV means kick-off times will vary and that this extra traffic will feed into the Castlefield Corridor.

As I often say to reopening enthusiasts, "show me the timetable". Not in minute detail, but how do you propose to move 10, 15, 20k people in an hour?

Here's an idea. Cancel one or two of the 4 an hour local services with 2-3 carriages on, and let a 12 car services move the football traffic. Cancelling one or two stoppers once a fortnight - and usually in the off peak - doesn't sound so bad (and is par for the course with Northern quite regularly.)

FWIW, I've seen Lansdowne Road handle 80,000+ people - the DART adjacent to the stadium adjusts its schedule and seems to do a good job of predicting fixtures and traffic.

And - frankly - the industrial and commercial needs of the region are more important than football.

£600+M of revenue per year to the club, and a lot of hotel trade has net benefit on the region.

 

[Rail Quest]

Meanwhile, in the last couple of days I've read a serious suggestion that Trafford Park should be replaced by a (freight!) terminal at Port Salford by the M60/M62. Coihcidence? (Sorry, can't remember where I read it....)

I haven't got a reference, but this has been ticking away for a while. I was told about plans for this a couple of years ago (perhaps 2021?) and that Peel Holdings (I think) were looking into purchasing the land for it.

I really hope something comes of that - it would be great to see freight diverted away from the corridor of doom! (both as a passenger who uses that section where trains are frequently held up by freight and to see increased rail freight use in general)

 

[6Gman]

Here's an idea. Cancel one or two of the 4 an hour local services with 2-3 carriages on, and let a 12 car services move the football traffic. Cancelling one or two stoppers once a fortnight - and usually in the off peak - doesn't sound so bad (and is par for the course with Northern quite regularly.)

So which services do you remove and how do you find the stock for 12 car services?

 

[ian1944]

Going back to the start, it's Ratcliffe and he's a part-owner (though acts as if he's got the lot).

 

[JamesT]

Going back to the start, it's Ratcliffe and he's a part-owner (though acts as if he's got the lot).

Although he’s a minority shareholder, the Glazers gave him control over the sporting organisation.

 

[HSTEd]

Not in minute detail, but how do you propose to move 10, 15, 20k people in an hour?

It wouldn't take that many rail vehicles with a Class 710 style interior.
A small subfleet of units for Northern with a tube interior that could be used for other duties the rest of the time would be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of this scheme.

4 cars with 680 passengers.

And - frankly - the industrial and commercial needs of the region are more important than football.

Old Trafford and it's surrounds probably makes a greater contribution of the economic life of the north west than those rail freight terminals do.

If the terminals weren't there the traffic wouldn't vanish, it would just use alternative means.

 

[CdBrux]

On other forums there has been quite some discussion of this. It's not just a new / rebuilt stadium there is also a wider regeneration project for the area as well. There has been speculation around the land occupied by the freight terminals, not necessarily in relation to a station, but more that use of some or all of this land can facilitate building a new stadium before demolishing the current one and more generally into the regeneration plans. There has been suggestion that moving the freight terminal to Port Salford could be a related idea. A few months ago Ratcliffe was seen schmoozing with Burnham (GM Metro Mayor) and Starmer in a box during a Man Utd game. Maybe the Ratcliffe endorsement of Starmer is linked as a future government could be helpful to facilitate this to the benefit of Man Utd? No such thing as a free lunch etc...

 

[The Planner]

Meanwhile, in the last couple of days I've read a serious suggestion that Trafford Park should be replaced by a (freight!) terminal at Port Salford by the M60/M62. Coihcidence? (Sorry, can't remember where I read it....)

Port Salford has been planned for years. Its not a new idea. Parkside down at Newton le Willows is a new plan for a terminal though.

 

[fishwomp]

So which services do you remove and how do you find the stock for 12 car services?

Northern seem to have no trouble randomly cancelling services, this time round they could be selective - but my suggestion would be strip one of the Warrington C services, and one from another route to get the Castlefield bandwidth. Alternatively, enabling departure to the West would set up that 12 car to Surrey/Islington..

Man Utd also seem to have the money to build a stadium for either £800M or £1.5Bn-£2Bn depending on what you read, so there isn't money for them to find and fund a couple of rakes of 12-car stock for those £50+ / seat matchgoers? Or from the £331M per year team wages? This whole thing should come from this, not taxpayers

 

[The Planner]

Northern seem to have no trouble randomly cancelling services, this time round they could be selective - but my suggestion would be strip one of the Warrington C services, and one from another route to get the Castlefield bandwidth. Alternatively, enabling departure to the West would set up that 12 car to Surrey/Islington..

Man Utd also seem to have the money to build a stadium for either £800M or £1.5Bn-£2Bn depending on what you read, so there isn't money for them to find and fund a couple of rakes of 12-car stock for those £50+ / seat matchgoers? Or from the £331M per year team wages? This whole thing should come from this, not taxpayers

Man Utd won't do anything to fund new trains. They would only deal with a station as they would probably be forced to under a section 106. I doubt you could find one team that has built a new stadium and funded rail transport enhancements off the back of it.

 

[furnessvale]

If Man Utd are prepared to pay the entire cost, I'm sure NR and the FOCs would be more than happy to look at other locations away from the Castlefield corridor for a new terminal.

Failing that, the Man Utd fans arriving from all over the UK, Europe and even the world will just have to suffer. The handful of Utd fans that actually live in Manchester will just have to catch the bus.

 

[The Planner]

If Man Utd are prepared to pay the entire cost, I'm sure NR and the FOCs would be more than happy to look at other locations away from the Castlefield corridor for a new terminal.

Failing that, the Man Utd fans arriving from all over the UK, Europe and even the world will just have to suffer. The handful of Utd fans that actually live in Manchester will just have to catch the bus.

Man Utd wouldn't though once they get wind of any associated costs that may come with it. For example depending on where you put a new location, does that drive other interventions? They will soon walk away if the FOCs/NR suddenly say we need new loops, signalling or similar.

 

[jh64]

Flattening the stadium and making an extra big freight terminal sounds good to me!

 

[geoffk]

Couldn't MU just share the Etihad? After all it's unused every other Saturday! (Putting my tin hat on now).

 

[WestAnglian]

And - frankly - the industrial and commercial needs of the region are more important than football.

Football, especially in Manchester, is very much commercial.

 

[furnessvale]

Man Utd wouldn't though once they get wind of any associated costs that may come with it. For example depending on where you put a new location, does that drive other interventions? They will soon walk away if the FOCs/NR suddenly say we need new loops, signalling or similar.

Correct. There was more than a hint of irony in my pust!

 

[Chester1]

Meanwhile, in the last couple of days I've read a serious suggestion that Trafford Park should be replaced by a (freight!) terminal at Port Salford by the M60/M62. Coihcidence? (Sorry, can't remember where I read it....)

How feasible would it be to move the freight terminal out of Manchester entirely? Ideally you would situate it in a location that doesn’t feed into the Castlefield corridor.

Moving the freight terminal to Port Salford is feasible. There is sufficient land and there is a long promised plan for a rail link there that has failed to materalise. Having west - south curve only would force the removal of the freight services through Castlefield. The big problem would be persuading the owners of the freight terminal to sell up.

The freight terminal is in an excellent position and could be partly used as another one of Manchester's growing number of high rise development sites. Redeveloping Old Trafford and building several thousand apartments next to it would collectively justify the business case for a new station. Although I am not convinced it could handle many fans on match day.

I am a Liverpool fan so I would be happy to see Old Trafford continue to decline but redeveloping it would be a great opportunity for the council and combined authority to redevelop the local area.

 

[SJL2020]

The big problem would be persuading the owners of the freight terminal to sell up.

Don't the football club already own it?

When the 'Wembley of the North' idea emerged recently I went on the Redcafe site to check out the discussion. Someone on there posted a link to an ownership map that indicated that the club's owners controlled pretty much all land around the existing stadium, including the freight terminal.

Perhaps a United fan could confirm whether this is still the case?

 

[MarkyT]

On other forums there has been quite some discussion of this. It's not just a new / rebuilt stadium there is also a wider regeneration project for the area as well. There has been speculation around the land occupied by the freight terminals, not necessarily in relation to a station, but more that use of some or all of this land can facilitate building a new stadium before demolishing the current one and more generally into the regeneration plans. There has been suggestion that moving the freight terminal to Port Salford could be a related idea. A few months ago Ratcliffe was seen schmoozing with Burnham (GM Metro Mayor) and Starmer in a box during a Man Utd game. Maybe the Ratcliffe endorsement of Starmer is linked as a future government could be helpful to facilitate this to the benefit of Man Utd? No such thing as a free lunch etc...

I can't see a heavy rail station being a priority now there's the Metrolink stop at Wharfside. A small batch of additional trams to help move post-match crowds more quickly could be better value and those vehicles would be able to help all over the system at other times. A new stadium immediately to the west would probably take part of the container stacking yard of the Freightliner terminal. The club's parking land use is inefficient with large surface lots surrounding the stadium. If parking was more centralised in a multi-level facility on one of the other existing sites, the W3 and N3 car parks along the banks of the Bridgewater canal adjacent to the terminal could be offered in compensation to Freightliner to offset any capacity reductions.