Maroon and blue parcels trains

[Topgun333]

I'd like to know when maroon CCTs and other parcels vans began the paint transition from maroon to blue and by when was it complete? What years might it have been usual to see a mixed livery parcels train? Thanks in advance.

 

[Dr Hoo]

British Rail and its associated 'rail blue' identity was launched by Dr Richard Beeching at the start of 1965.

One of his many great achievements. (Grabs tin hat...)

 

[yorksrob]

One of his many great achievements. (Grabs tin hat...)

I suppose that one was harmless enough.

 

[AndrewE]

British Rail and its associated 'rail blue' identity was launched by Dr Richard Beeching at the start of 1965.

One of his many great achievements. (Grabs tin hat...)

...except that it probably wasn't one of his contributions of course. Wikipedia says The BR design panel was set up in 1965, when Beeching left at about the same time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail:

The zeal for modernisation in the Beeching era drove the next rebranding exercise, and BR management wished to divest the organisation of anachronistic, heraldic motifs and develop a corporate identity to rival that of London Transport. BR's design panel set up a working party led by Milner Gray of the Design Research Unit.They drew up a Corporate Identity Manual which established a coherent brand and design standard for the whole organisation

 

[Dr Hoo]

I suggest that people take a look at 'Modern Railways' for January 1965 (apologies if you don't have one to hand). There is a nine-page article on the corporate identity, including very rare colour in that era, introduced by the man himself.

As with many changes from that exciting time (such as the very belated start on switching to air braking beyond electric multiple units; developing a serious research capability; concentrating on block trains for freight; open freight terminals; etc.) it wasn't that Beeching necessarily came up with the ideas. One of his great skills as a leader was to recognise what needed to be done and then empower dynamic designers, engineers, operators and so forth to deliver it (whilst minimising waste of resources on things that the rail industry was less well suited to). The stultifying bureaucracy of the British Transport Commission era was swept away.

 

[AndrewE]

However, I have never read any comment that suggested that Beeching was a charismatic leader who empowered and inspired the rest of his management, in fact the impression I have is of the opposite (unlike those supposed "design faults" the management of the '70's!)

Where would we look for evidence? I shall have to re-read Dick Hardy's book (and any others I can find) for hints. Anyone got any suggestions?
A

 

[Cowley]

I'd like to know when maroon CCTs and other parcels vans began the paint transition from maroon to blue and by when was it complete? What years might it have been usual to see a mixed livery parcels train? Thanks in advance.

I'm not too sure and probably someone else on here would know better than me, but I would imagine that there was the odd maroon parcels van knocking around in the early to mid 70s possibly. There were certainly a few green locos hanging on until then and a couple of works had maroon coaches in their test train rakes in the 70s.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I was careful not to use words like "charismatic" or "inspirational" in relation to Beeching's leadership.

He was, undoubtedly, very 'effective'.

Perhaps some of today's high-profile industry figures could benefit from reflecting on the differences between these and other attributes. Empty vessels and all that.

 

[yorksrob]

The stultifying bureaucracy of the British Transport Commission era was swept away.

So stultifying it oversaw the Kent electrification scheme.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Which even had green parcels vans, in the shape of the MLVs, to try and get back to the original thread.

 

[yorksrob]

Which even had green parcels vans, in the shape of the MLVs, to try and get back to the original thread.

What's wrong with green MLV's ? Certainly no less aesthetically stimulating than overall blue ones !

 

[RichmondCommu]

What happened to the MLV's? I'm guessing that they were all cut up?

 

[yorksrob]

What happened to the MLV's? I'm guessing that they were all cut up?

A surprisingly large number seem to have made it into preservation at various places. Surprising when one considers that only one phase 1 CIG, 1 VEP and one 4EPB seem to have survived.

I guess the battery electrics make them potentially more useful for preserved lines.

I think the EKR, the Coventry railway centre and the Eden Valley Railway all have one, off the top of my head.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Having spent some of my railway career in Kent, I loved the electrification and the MLVs in particular.

IIRC they had some amazing capabilities, besides batteries for limited movement 'off the juice' they also had air and vacuum brake functionality and could thus haul the odd extra unpowered van as well.

I wonder if there are any surviving photographs of green/maroon/blue combo's?

 

[sprinterguy]

What happened to the MLV's? I'm guessing that they were all cut up?

A very quick internet search suggests that eight of the ten BR built MLVs have been preserved.

Regarding the original topic, some of the photos on the following thread on the RMweb forum might be of use:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66383-modelling-a-traditional-parcels-train/

A lot of parcels vehicles appear to have carried a long term livery of "dirt brown" which otherwise disguised the underlying livery!

 

[Cowley]

A very quick internet search suggests that eight of the ten BR built MLVs have been preserved.

Regarding the original topic, some of the photos on the following thread on the RMweb forum might be of use:
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66383-modelling-a-traditional-parcels-train/

A lot of parcels vehicles appear to have carried a long term livery of "dirt brown" which otherwise disguised the underlying livery!

There's some great photos on there , not much showing vans in anything other than blue in the 70s though, but as you say many of them are so dirty it's hard to tell.

 

[Topgun333]

So just wondering about my question as the OP...

 

[EbbwJunction1]

A surprisingly large number seem to have made it into preservation at various places. Surprising when one considers that only one phase 1 CIG, 1 VEP and one 4EPB seem to have survived.

I guess the battery electrics make them potentially more useful for preserved lines. I think the EKR, the Coventry railway centre and the Eden Valley Railway all have one, off the top of my head.

Eight of the ten units have been preserved - here's an extract from Wiki:

Preservation
"All except two of these units have been preserved. One unit was scrapped after an accident whilst in service, and the other was scrapped in preservation.

The first unit to be preserved was first-built no. 9001, which was saved in 1998 after a campaign by the EPB Preservation Group. It was bought to power the group's preserved 2EPB unit, no. 5759. The units dumped at Bournemouth were put out to tender in 1999, and were bought mainly for use as storage vehicles. Their ability to move under battery-power has also allowed limited passenger use. The final unit to be saved was no. 9002, which has now been stored at Southall. After extensive overhaul at Southall 9002 ventured back onto the main line on 28 August 2015 when it was hauled by Battle Of Britain Class 34067 Tangmere to Ramsgate Depot for an open day, it returned a day later but has not been out since. The table below gives details of the current (as of 2016) locations and fates of the Class 419 units."

Fleet details

Unit Number / Final Livery / DMLV / Withdrawn / Status /
Original / Departmental

"9001 931091 BR Green 68001 1998 Stored, not yet carrying passengers at the Epping Ongar Railway
9002 931092 NSE 68002 2004 Stored at Southall
9003 - BR Green 68003 1997 Preserved at the Eden Valley Railway
9004 931094 NSE 68004 1997 Preserved at the Mid-Norfolk Railway
9005 931095 LSE "Jaffa Cake" 68005 1997 Preserved at the Eden Valley Railway
9006 931096 - 68006 1991 Scrapped 1994 following a collision.
9007 931097 - 68007 1997 Scrapped 2006 for spares.
9008 931098 BR Green 68008 1997 Stored at Southall
9009 931099 BR Green 68009 1997 Stored at Southall
9010 931090 In house colours 68010 1997 Preserved at the Eden Valley Railway."

So, the Eden Valley Railway have three, the Epping Ongar Railway and the Mid-Norfolk Railway have one each, and three are stored at Southall.

 

[yorksrob]

Eight of the ten units have been preserved - here's an extract from Wiki:

Preservation
"All except two of these units have been preserved. One unit was scrapped after an accident whilst in service, and the other was scrapped in preservation.

The first unit to be preserved was first-built no. 9001, which was saved in 1998 after a campaign by the EPB Preservation Group. It was bought to power the group's preserved 2EPB unit, no. 5759. The units dumped at Bournemouth were put out to tender in 1999, and were bought mainly for use as storage vehicles. Their ability to move under battery-power has also allowed limited passenger use. The final unit to be saved was no. 9002, which has now been stored at Southall. After extensive overhaul at Southall 9002 ventured back onto the main line on 28 August 2015 when it was hauled by Battle Of Britain Class 34067 Tangmere to Ramsgate Depot for an open day, it returned a day later but has not been out since. The table below gives details of the current (as of 2016) locations and fates of the Class 419 units."

Fleet details

Unit Number / Final Livery / DMLV / Withdrawn / Status /
Original / Departmental

"9001 931091 BR Green 68001 1998 Stored, not yet carrying passengers at the Epping Ongar Railway
9002 931092 NSE 68002 2004 Stored at Southall
9003 - BR Green 68003 1997 Preserved at the Eden Valley Railway
9004 931094 NSE 68004 1997 Preserved at the Mid-Norfolk Railway
9005 931095 LSE "Jaffa Cake" 68005 1997 Preserved at the Eden Valley Railway
9006 931096 - 68006 1991 Scrapped 1994 following a collision.
9007 931097 - 68007 1997 Scrapped 2006 for spares.
9008 931098 BR Green 68008 1997 Stored at Southall
9009 931099 BR Green 68009 1997 Stored at Southall
9010 931090 In house colours 68010 1997 Preserved at the Eden Valley Railway."

So, the Eden Valley Railway have three, the Epping Ongar Railway and the Mid-Norfolk Railway have one each, and three are stored at Southall.

Goodness. Its getting on for over twenty years since I've seen anything in Jaffa Cake livery !

 

[Taunton]

I'd like to know when maroon CCTs and other parcels vans began the paint transition from maroon to blue and by when was it complete? What years might it have been usual to see a mixed livery parcels train? Thanks in advance.

First ones in 1965. They seemed to get repainted along with the rest of the stock, so by around 1972-3 was when maroon finally went. It was common to repaint regularly at the time. Even pre-nationalisation designs, of which there were still a large number around into the 1970s (although often built in the years following nationalisation), started to be painted blue.

The SR never took to maroon, and painted all theirs green. It was quite possible to see 3-way mixed trains of red, blue and green. In fact, as wooden-bodied freight vans were commonly used in parcels trains at the time, painted brown, that's four colours.

 

[Cowley]

First ones in 1965. They seemed to get repainted along with the rest of the stock, so by around 1972-3 was when maroon finally went. It was common to repaint regularly at the time. Even pre-nationalisation designs, of which there were still a large number around into the 1970s (although often built in the years following nationalisation), started to be painted blue.

The SR never took to maroon, and painted all theirs green. It was quite possible to see 3-way mixed trains of red, blue and green. In fact, as wooden-bodied freight vans were commonly used in parcels trains at the time, painted brown, that's four colours.

When looking through old pictures from back then it's amazing to see the sheer variety of different types in some of the trains, it's also surprising how quickly a lot of stuff, even the older 'big four' vans were painted into standard blue.
I wonder if any trains managed to have vans in BR bauxite brown, green, maroon, blue and blue and grey in the consist?

 

[Taunton]

Some BGs in parcels trains were blue & grey, which introduces a further combination. There was also a surprising (for the 1960s) private enterprise express parcels partnership on London to Scotland called Tartan Arrow, which repainted its vans in a red & white scheme with prominent titles. The scheme didn't last and the vans went back into general use still in those colours.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Generally speaking - parcels vans were never washed (bar maybe some of those consisted in say the 0055 Paddington papers which cih had passenger stock in the formation and went through the OOC wash plant.

Most vans looked as it they had been berthed in a mud bank. Only cleaned (bar above) when they went to main works for overhaul.

 

[Taunton]

Generally speaking - parcels vans were never washed (bar maybe some of those consisted in say the 0055 Paddington papers which cih had passenger stock in the formation and went through the OOC wash plant.

That's an interesting note, because I have written before about how the WR's overnight all-news (and mainstream parcels) services commonly had a BSK or two in the formation, which might be occupied by passengers on the "indulgence" of the guard (ie be polite, not smelling of drink, and don't be obvious to the Paddington Night Inspector). On the WofE line they would commonly be occupied by sailors for Plymouth, and some other semi-regulars who knew the ropes. Most of the vans were BGs. In the final steam days it was a regular King duty, and 100mph across the Somerset Levels was not unknown. I think some point-to-point timings were sharper than for the Cornish Riviera.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

That's an interesting note, because I have written before about how the WR's overnight all-news (and mainstream parcels) services commonly had a BSK or two in the formation, which might be occupied by passengers on the "indulgence" of the guard (ie be polite, not smelling of drink, and don't be obvious to the Paddington Night Inspector). On the WofE line they would commonly be occupied by sailors for Plymouth, and some other semi-regulars who knew the ropes. Most of the vans were BGs. In the final steam days it was a regular King duty, and 100mph across the Somerset Levels was not unknown. I think some point-to-point timings were sharper than for the Cornish Riviera.

Those (newspaper) trains were the top end of the parcels business - and tended to get the better stock - and as you say those with passenger accomodation were looked after better than say the Bristol - Carmarthen parcels which had anything handy flung into the consist........

The 0040 Waterloo - Yeovil was another "crack" parcels and paper train - class 50 hauled accordingly.

 

[30907]

Those (newspaper) trains were the top end of the parcels business - and tended to get the better stock - and as you say those with passenger accomodation were looked after better than say the Bristol - Carmarthen parcels which had anything handy flung into the consist........

The 0040 Waterloo - Yeovil was another "crack" parcels and paper train - class 50 hauled accordingly.

0140 IIRC. And well provided with passenger accommodation as it formed an up Yeovil-Salisbury-Waterloo for most, though not all, of its life.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

0140 IIRC. And well provided with passenger accommodation as it formed an up Yeovil-Salisbury-Waterloo for most, though not all, of its life.

Realised I was an hour out after posting ....i