McGill's Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and Eastern Scottish)

[Jordan Adam]

The loadings I see on the X38 into or out of Edinburgh City Centre would certainly not justify an every 20 minutes service. The average loading I’d say is probably around 10 passengers off peak, and around 20 in the peak. Once it leaves the the city centre or before it arrives into the city centre though I have absolutely no idea how busy it is. I assume it picks up some at Drum Brae and Maybury but elsewhere on that stretch? I have no idea.

If it’s struggling to fill an Enviro200 off peak the chances of getting a frequency increase are slim to none I’m afraid. McGill’s won’t look at the potential but rather where it’s at just now due to the tight resources.

I've been on the X38 a few times recently and been to Falkirk a number of times. From my own observations, I too would agree that an increase to a 20 minute frequency isn't really justified, especially when there are other services that could do with increases. Scotland East have limited resources to utilise and I just don't see the X38 being particularly high on the list of services to increase/grow when the existing service is more than adequate. In contrast whenever I've been on the X36 or X37 they've been very busy, so I can see why they intend to refurbish and allocate E400MMCs to those services.

 

[Metal Mickey]

The loadings I see on the X38 into or out of Edinburgh City Centre would certainly not justify an every 20 minutes service. The average loading I’d say is probably around 10 passengers off peak, and around 20 in the peak.

You make a fair point. Unfortunately, between Polmont and Maybury isn’t particularly good bus territory due to the lack of population density. There may be some journeys at the peak which are close to full but that doesn’t justify the additional cost as most journeys during the day carry fresh air, particularly coming from Edinburgh from early morning up until early afternoon.

If the 35 was retimed around 15 minutes either way

That would also mean changing the X37 as there is an approximate half hour frequency on the X37/35 between Falkirk Town Centre and Bonnybridge Toll. Changing the X37 would also result in changing the X36 due to the combined frequency between Cumbernauld Village and Glasgow.

 

[wlbusser]

Perhaps the solution could be for Livingston to run a later service to Kirkliston and Winchburgh? I admit this isn’t flawless, but it’s probably the best way of pleasing everyone.

I wouldn’t run it beyond there as Linlithgow has the train service so that covers the last hour of the day, and I can’t see demand beyond the West Lothian boundary.

Wasn't it the 22B that was basically a 22 that ran around 11.45 from Edinburgh but did Kirliston, Winchburgh then onto Broxburn rather than going straight to Broxburn from Newbridge like the 22 used to?

I used to use it when working evening shifts until they stopped it. I know the last X38 from Edinburgh can vary with some days it being reasonably busy from the city centre and it picks up a few more by Corstorphine, but then other days it's quieter with maybe half a dozen people.

During the Festival in the past it has been very busy, I remember at least one year First ran 2 buses because of how busy it was though it was never well advertised so you'd start off with the driver acknowledging 2 buses but then once 1 got to capacity it would fly past stops and you'd see people annoyed that they couldn't get on not knowing there was a 2nd bus behind.

 

[markymark2000]

The loss of the 35 beyond Kilsyth will be a fair bit of a loss considering the unreliablity of Canavans and will result in the loss of bus accessibility to Croy station for some early morning trips. I hope SPT step up there and find a replacement.

Why doesn't the 35 run to Cumbernauld. Condorrat seems like a very strange place to terminate a bus.

I'm sure people who use Canavan currently would be more than happy to have a more stable operator if the route extended rather than got cut back.

 

[Metal Mickey]

Why doesn't the 35 run to Cumbernauld. Condorrat seems like a very strange place to terminate a bus.

The reason I would say is that it would cost an extra bus and would have to sit at Cumbernauld Town Centre for around 50 minutes.

 

[PaulMc7]

I've been on the X38 a few times recently and been to Falkirk a number of times. From my own observations, I too would agree that an increase to a 20 minute frequency isn't really justified, especially when there are other services that could do with increases. Scotland East have limited resources to utilise and I just don't see the X38 being particularly high on the list of services to increase/grow when the existing service is more than adequate. In contrast whenever I've been on the X36 or X37 they've been very busy, so I can see why they intend to refurbish and allocate E400MMCs to those services.

If the funding cut didn't happen and the driver situation was a bit more stable then I think that even First may have increased the frequency of the X36 and X37 to every 30 minutes each. The bus does really well against the quicker and similarly priced train from both areas into Glasgow and it's definitely something in the future that I wouldn't rule out an expansion on. I can't wait to see what the buses end up looking like once refurbished and set up for the August changes. I can get to Milngavie to get the X10/X10A to Stirling and that's a good option to have especially as it's a good scenic route but if these buses are far more comfortable then I will definitely use the X36.

Why doesn't the 35 run to Cumbernauld. Condorrat seems like a very strange place to terminate a bus.

I'm sure people who use Canavan currently would be more than happy to have a more stable operator if the route extended rather than got cut back.

Cumbernauld is exactly where the 35 should go, to be honest. It would also give the driver a chance of a toilet break during the layover time too with access to the shopping centre although staying at one of the stops would be unlikely.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The reason I would say is that it would cost an extra bus and would have to sit at Cumbernauld Town Centre for around 50 minutes.

This could've easily been worked around if it interworked with another service at the Falkirk end, the X37 or the Community Hospital 2 variants for example

If the funding cut didn't happen and the driver situation was a bit more stable then I think that even First may have increased the frequency of the X36 and X37 to every 30 minutes each.

They tried this already, in fact it was how the 35 came about. To give a brief history...

Prior to August 2018 the X37 and X39 operating hourly each offered a combined 30 minute frequency from Glasgow - Cumbernauld Village via Muirhead and Cumbernauld Town Centre, from there the X37 continued to Falkirk and the X39 to Stirling, there was also an hourly short working on the X39 between Denny and Stirling offering two buses per hour over this section of route.

In August 2018 the X37 was doubled in frequency from hourly to half hourly, while the following month in September 2018 the hourly X39 was replaced by the half hourly more direct X36 which bypasses Muirhead.

In May 2019 the X37 was reduced to hourly and the 4B (Falkirk - Croy) extended to Glasgow via Condorrat and Muirhead and renumbered X35. The combined X35/X37 maintained the existing half hourly frequency between Glasgow and Condorrat. The X36 was later reduced to an hourly frequency in October 2019.

During 'pandemic times' the X35 was cutback to Condorrat and eventually renumbered to 35, while the X36 was rerouted via Condorrat and the X37 revised to bypass Muirhead. Under this new set up (which remains in place as of today) the X36/X37 offer a 30 minute frequency between Glasgow and Cumbernauld Village. To make up for the X35/X37 no longer serving Muirhead the First Glasgow X3 was increased from a 30 to 20 minute frequency.

 

[markymark2000]

The reason I would say is that it would cost an extra bus and would have to sit at Cumbernauld Town Centre for around 50 minutes.

If you didn't serve Condorrat though and went straight from Craiglinn Roundabout to Cumbernauld, the difference would only be around a minute longer each way. You can't just miss out the major point of demand because it's easier and then sit and wonder why you aren't getting passengers. You've made the route intentionally unviable.

 

[PaulMc7]

This could've easily been worked around if it interworked with another service at the Falkirk end, the X37 or the Community Hospital 2 variants for example


They tried this already, in fact it was how the 35 came about. To give a brief history...

Prior to August 2018 the X37 and X39 operating hourly each offered a combined 30 minute frequency from Glasgow - Cumbernauld Village via Muirhead and Cumbernauld Town Centre, from there the X37 continued to Falkirk and the X39 to Stirling, there was also an hourly short working on the X39 between Denny and Stirling offering two buses per hour over this section of route.

In August 2018 the X37 was doubled in frequency from hourly to half hourly, while the following month in September 2018 the hourly X39 was replaced by the half hourly more direct X36 which bypasses Muirhead.

In May 2019 the X37 was reduced to hourly and the 4B (Falkirk - Croy) extended to Glasgow via Condorrat and Muirhead and renumbered X35. The combined X35/X37 maintained the existing half hourly frequency between Glasgow and Condorrat. The X36 was later reduced to an hourly frequency in October 2019.

During 'pandemic times' the X35 was cutback to Condorrat and eventually renumbered to 35, while the X36 was rerouted via Condorrat and the X37 revised to bypass Muirhead. Under this new set up (which remains in place as of today) the X36/X37 offer a 30 minute frequency between Glasgow and Cumbernauld Village. To make up for the X35/X37 no longer serving Muirhead the First Glasgow X3 was increased from a 30 to 20 minute frequency.

Thank you for the full explanation. I remembered some of this and indeed used the X35 when it operated a couple of times. I forgot about the increases to the X36/X37 though although I remembered the short Denny working.

 

[Metal Mickey]

If you didn't serve Condorrat though and went straight from Craiglinn Roundabout to Cumbernauld, the difference would only be around a minute longer each way. You can't just miss out the major point of demand because it's easier and then sit and wonder why you aren't getting passengers. You've made the route intentionally unviable.

Extending to Cumbernauld Town Centre could be done within existing resources if Condorrat was withdrawn. To serve both Condorrat and Cumbernauld certainly would be unviable as it would mean an extra peak vehicle is required.

You’ve also got to consider the relationship the 35 has with the X37 between Falkirk and Bonnybridge which is as close as possible to a half hour frequency as these are the only services on Falkirk Road in Bonnybridge.

 

[markymark2000]

You’ve also got to consider the relationship the 35 has with the X37 between Falkirk and Bonnybridge which is as close as possible to a half hour frequency as these are the only services on Falkirk Road in Bonnybridge.

From Falkirk, the 35 is xx:53 and X37 is xx:30. From Bonnybridge towards Falkirk the 35 is xx:29, the X37 is xx:52. Not a very good 'as close as possible to half hourly'

 

[Metal Mickey]

From Falkirk, the 35 is xx:53 and X37 is xx:30. From Bonnybridge towards Falkirk the 35 is xx:29, the X37 is xx:52. Not a very good 'as close as possible to half hourly'

It’s the best you’re gonna get with the current routes of the 35/X37. I’d like to think that coordination on the Bonnybridge corridor will improve once Kilsyth to Condorrat is withdrawn but that remains to be seen.

 

[delt1c]

Currently travelling on 8962 ALX 400 on the 26 from Livingston, very nice and comfortable inside a big improvement on the Streetlights. Only problem Is destination display isn’t working. But all in a nice travelling environment.
One thing I did notice was no Perspex screen for the driver

 

[adrock1976]

SNIP

That would also mean changing the X37 as there is an approximate half hour frequency on the X37/35 between Falkirk Town Centre and Bonnybridge Toll. Changing the X37 would also result in changing the X36 due to the combined frequency between Cumbernauld Village and Glasgow.

I had forgot about the X37. Perhaps Canavan could retime the 43/435 15 minutes either side of the 35?

The reason I would say is that it would cost an extra bus and would have to sit at Cumbernauld Town Centre for around 50 minutes.

At present, there are 2 vehicles and drivers required for the 35. By cutting the route at Kilsyth, it would not save anything as the buses pass each other around Haggs.

There would still be a long layover at Kilsyth.

This could've easily been worked around if it interworked with another service at the Falkirk end, the X37 or the Community Hospital 2 variants for example


They tried this already, in fact it was how the 35 came about. To give a brief history...

Prior to August 2018 the X37 and X39 operating hourly each offered a combined 30 minute frequency from Glasgow - Cumbernauld Village via Muirhead and Cumbernauld Town Centre, from there the X37 continued to Falkirk and the X39 to Stirling, there was also an hourly short working on the X39 between Denny and Stirling offering two buses per hour over this section of route.

In August 2018 the X37 was doubled in frequency from hourly to half hourly, while the following month in September 2018 the hourly X39 was replaced by the half hourly more direct X36 which bypasses Muirhead.

In May 2019 the X37 was reduced to hourly and the 4B (Falkirk - Croy) extended to Glasgow via Condorrat and Muirhead and renumbered X35. The combined X35/X37 maintained the existing half hourly frequency between Glasgow and Condorrat. The X36 was later reduced to an hourly frequency in October 2019.

During 'pandemic times' the X35 was cutback to Condorrat and eventually renumbered to 35, while the X36 was rerouted via Condorrat and the X37 revised to bypass Muirhead. Under this new set up (which remains in place as of today) the X36/X37 offer a 30 minute frequency between Glasgow and Cumbernauld Village. To make up for the X35/X37 no longer serving Muirhead the First Glasgow X3 was increased from a 30 to 20 minute frequency.

Many thanks for the snapshot of the X36/X37/X39.

Was it also around 2018 or 2013 (First Glasgow Simplicity) when the 24 and 27 that ran Glasgow - Falkirk/Stirling via A803 were took off?

I do remember the cream double deckers that were used when I saw them along Springburn Road when I used to reside there.

 

[Observer]

I wonder if the two SPT contract jounerys on the 35 to Cumbernauld on Saturday morning are staying?

Are these even still a thing? I can't find anything that shows they still subsidise these.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Many thanks for the snapshot of the X36/X37/X39.

Was it also around 2018 or 2013 (First Glasgow Simplicity) when the 24 and 27 that ran Glasgow - Falkirk/Stirling via A803 were took off?

I do remember the cream double deckers that were used when I saw them along Springburn Road when I used to reside there.

The 24 and 27 were withdrawn in January 2015. The 27 was replaced by an X86 which operated which operated Glasgow to Falkirk via Kirkintilloch and Kilsyth, the X86 operated the same route as the X85/X87 between Glasgow and Kirkintilloch offering faster journey times. I would assume the hourly Stirling - Denny short working on the X39 was introduced following the withdrawal of the 24, however there was also at one point an hourly variation of the then service 2 (Falkirk - Dunipace) which extended to Stirling Uni as a 2A. The X86 was replaced in August 2016 by the 4B (Falkirk - Croy) which initially was integrated as part of the 3/4 however later became it's own separate route when the eastern sections of the 3/4 to the Falkirk Wheel and Camelon were replaced by the 6/7/8.

It should also be noted that going further back prior to 2016 there used to be a once per day direct variation of the X37 from Glasgow to Falkirk which operated as an X35. This only served Cumbernauld Town Centre and Camelon as it was essentially just a placing journey for a vehicle to get from Glasgow to Falkirk and as such only took 50 minutes vs the X37 which at the time took around 80 minutes. It was introduced when the Cumbernauld operated X37 duties transferred to Larbert.

 

[houndlover]

The loadings I see on the X38 into or out of Edinburgh City Centre would certainly not justify an every 20 minutes service. The average loading I’d say is probably around 10 passengers off peak, and around 20 in the peak. Once it leaves the the city centre or before it arrives into the city centre though I have absolutely no idea how busy it is. I assume it picks up some at Drum Brae and Maybury but elsewhere on that stretch? I have no idea.

If it’s struggling to fill an Enviro200 off peak the chances of getting a frequency increase are slim to none I’m afraid. McGill’s won’t look at the potential but rather where it’s at just now due to the tight resources.

I wouldn't agree totally with your assessment of the X38 average loadings at peak times out of Edinburgh City Centre.
I use this service very often as it is the only regular bus which serves where I live in West Lothian. Peak weekday rush hour times on the X38 out of Edinburgh usually entails a pretty much full bus by the first Princes Street stop outside Waverley and standing room only by Haymarket.
While I would agree passenger numbers in and out of Edinburgh off-peak do not justify an increase in frequency, a rush-hour increase would likely fill nearly 2 buses as opposed to having one totally bunged bus.
Always have thought the X38 needed a double decker at rush hour peaks...but a certain low bridge in Linlithgow makes this impossible. However, if I'm not mistaken I believe a few years ago First would occasionally run peak X38 service using deckers which terminated at Winchburgh. Which made sense as through my experience the majority of passengers on X38 alight at Kirkliston and Winchburgh at rush hour.

 

[PaulMc7]

I wouldn't agree totally with your assessment of the X38 average loadings at peak times out of Edinburgh City Centre.
I use this service very often as it is the only regular bus which serves where I live in WL. Peak weekday rush hour times on the X38 out of Edinburgh usually entails a pretty much full bus by the first Princes Street stop outside Waverley and standing room only by Haymarket.
While I would agree passenger numbers in and out of Edinburgh off-peak do not justify an increase in frequency, a rush-hour increase would likely fill nearly 2 buses as opposed to having one totally bunged bus.
Always have thought the X38 needed a double decker at rush hour peaks...but a certain low bridge in Linlithgow makes this impossible. However, if I'm not mistaken I believe a few years ago First would occasionally run peak X38 service using deckers which terminated at Winchburgh. Which made sense as through my experience the majority of passengers on X38 alight at Kirkliston and Winchburgh at rush hour.

According to Google Maps, Larbert to Regent Road in Edinburgh is 34 miles so I'd imagine that this plays a huge part in why they've kept things as they are even if peak numbers are really high.

If the passenger numbers were high enough to increase the frequency at peaks in the other direction towards Edinburgh, I'd imagine that it could be become viable in the future.

Another option of course, would be to run it from the Deans Road Depot but even there to Regent Road is 20 miles so again it's probably still too much in terms of dead mileage.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

According to Google Maps, Larbert to Regent Road in Edinburgh is 34 miles so I'd imagine that this plays a huge part in why they've kept things as they are even if peak numbers are really high.

If the passenger numbers were high enough to increase the frequency at peaks in the other direction towards Edinburgh, I'd imagine that it could be become viable in the future.

Another option of course, would be to run it from the Deans Road Depot but even there to Regent Road is 20 miles so again it's probably still too much in terms of dead mileage.

I agree. Unless the route begins to justify an increase off peak, then I would be amazed if they were able to run extra journeys or a high frequency in the peak. The route in my view cannot get an increase based on this due to the economics across the whole day. The extra people carried in the peak isn’t enough to offset the lack of demand off peak. People can ask for it, but at the minute both money and especially resources talk. Winchburgh shorts with double deckers are again an option, but as you say it’s still 20 miles empty.

First did try the X9 dead mileage express for a while so that the X38 had more buses in the peak, but as a whole the X9 didn’t look like it ever carried anybody which of course made no difference.

 

[voidwxrranty]

I agree. Unless the route begins to justify an increase off peak, then I would be amazed if they were able to run extra journeys or a high frequency in the peak. The route in my view cannot get an increase based on this due to the economics across the whole day. The extra people carried in the peak isn’t enough to offset the lack of demand off peak. People can ask for it, but at the minute both money and especially resources talk. Winchburgh shorts with double deckers are again an option, but as you say it’s still 20 miles empty.

First did try the X9 dead mileage express for a while so that the X38 had more buses in the peak, but as a whole the X9 didn’t look like it ever carried anybody which of course made no difference.

Deckers aren’t, Linlithgow says hello.

 

[PaulMc7]

Deckers aren’t, Linlithgow says hello.

Linlithgow wouldn't come into play as it would be for Edinburgh to Winchburgh only. How busy are the peak loadings from Linlithgow to Falkirk in comparison to Edinburgh to Winchburgh?

 

[overthewater]

There is one other flash point on that route, it was a Saturday morning from 10am - noon. Some of the buses would operate with Standing load leaving Kirkliston.

 

[voidwxrranty]

Linlithgow wouldn't come into play as it would be for Edinburgh to Winchburgh only. How busy are the peak loadings from Linlithgow to Falkirk in comparison to Edinburgh to Winchburgh?

I done it with a driver a few months back, we were around half full, so it was sit next to someone or stand

 

[danielhogg2005]

8962 (mage attached) is on the X22 today, I hope they can put more of those on that service.

 

[delt1c]

8962 (mage attached) is on the X22 today, I hope they can put more of those on that service.

Travelled on 8962 on Monday on the 26. Have to say that the refurb makes it feel like new.

 

[danielhogg2005]

How many buses does services X36/X37 require?

 

[ScotRail158725]

What refurb? All its had is a layer of exterior paint

Travelled on 8962 on Monday on the 26. Have to say that the refurb makes it feel like new.

 

[roadierway77]

How many buses does services X36/X37 require?

They require three each, so six in total.

 

[delt1c]

What refurb? All its had is a layer of exterior paint

Internally was spotless and not Mc Gills normal upholstery,

 

[roadierway77]

Internally was spotless and not Mc Gills normal upholstery,

All the new E400s still retain their RATP London United interior, McGill’s have done nothing to the interior asides from fit Eastern Scottish/Midland Bluebird branding and promotional material. They are very smart inside though for their age - RATP cleaned them up well prior to their sale.