Memories of 4REP class 430

[leo knight]

Just thought I would open a new thread about the most powerful 3rd rail unit ever produced as it were my most fav emu I travelled on in the 80s and always wondered why one were not preserved even though there were 5 traction motors left(were 6) but one destroyed in the clapham crash.
Would anyone like to share stories and memories of these awesome sets. Pictures of exteriors and interiors would be good if anyone wants to share. These units with 2 motor coaches were the equivalent to the power of 1 deltic class 55 I believe.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just thought I would open a new thread about the most powerful 3rd rail unit ever produced as it were my most fav emu I travelled on in the 80s and always wondered why one were not preserved even though there were 5 traction motors left(were 6) but one destroyed in the clapham crash.
Would anyone like to share stories and memories of these awesome sets. Pictures of exteriors and interiors would be good if anyone wants to share. These units with 2 motor coaches were the equivalent to the power of 1 deltic class 55 I believe.

I only ever managed a couple of shortish trips on them from Eastleigh to Bournemouth and back, (I think during 1974) but the happy memory stayed with me for a long time. I think the fact that they donated their traction equipment to their successors the Class 442 didn't really help their case for a preservation attempt. At least the spirit lived on in the 442 which were to me at least a very worthy replacement for the 4-REP units.

 

[306024]

Fine units for their time, certainly powerful. For younger viewers they were a four car unit that were used on the Waterloo - Bournemouth / Weymouth service. The 4 REP would be at the London end and push a 4 TC or 2 x 4TCs from Waterloo to Bournemouth, or pull the them in the opposite direction. TCs had no power at all, and would be hauled by a 33/1 from Bournemouth to Weymouth, and pushed back again. The power swap at Bournemouth was quite slick. Outwardly the difference between a REP / TC combo and a CIG wasn’t obvious.

But best of all was you could get fried egg on toast for 30p from the buffet.

 

[DelW]

One of the problems with preservation of third rail stock is that there's nowhere to operate it under power. As 306024 mentioned, other than the motors there's little difference between the REPs and TCs or CIGs, a small number of which were preserved (and used as loco-hauled stock).

 

[Warwick]

Fine units for their time, certainly powerful. For younger viewers they were a four car unit that were used on the Waterloo - Bournemouth / Weymouth service. The 4 REP would be at the London end and push a 4 TC or 2 x 4TCs from Waterloo to Bournemouth, or pull the them in the opposite direction. TCs had no power at all, and would be hauled by a 33/1 from Bournemouth to Weymouth, and pushed back again. The power swap at Bournemouth was quite slick. Outwardly the difference between a REP / TC combo and a CIG wasn’t obvious.

But best of all was you could get fried egg on toast for 30p from the buffet.

"The power swap at Bournemouth was quite slick"
I remember travelling between London and Poole a few times in the 1970s. Compared with to-day the detaching of the set off the back and attaching the engine at the front was positively supersonic!

 

[swt_passenger]

I travelled in them a lot, as far as Southampton usually, and to be frank the journey experience wasn’t noticeably different to any other EMU of the time. There’s a lot of rose tinted hindsight goes on...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I once had one that did Southampton Central to Waterloo in under an hour non-stop. That included standing outside Waterloo for about five minutes waiting for the platform to become free..

 

[leo knight]

Yes they were fun times before the days of adding stops and time to the journey. Route code 91 fast were timed for around 60-70 mins and often arrived early. I would rate these to desiros any day.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I once had one that did Southampton Central to Waterloo in under an hour non-stop. That included standing outside Waterloo for about five minutes waiting for the platform to become free..

For a distance of almost 80 miles that is seriously going some!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

For a distance of almost 80 miles that is seriously going some!

Not very much else on the line to get in the way in those days, and also no speed monitoring equipment... a REP even with two TCs behind it would need restraining to keep it to the official 90mph speed limit.

 

[satisnek]

I travelled in them a lot, as far as Southampton usually, and to be frank the journey experience wasn’t noticeably different to any other EMU of the time. There’s a lot of rose tinted hindsight goes on...

I think that just about sums it up. I only occasionally used these services in my teenage years and then there was a good chance I was sitting in a TC (I've mentioned elsewhere that I regret having never knowingly experienced the REP power cars). The interiors were essentially the same as pre-refurb CIG stock although some vehicles were conversions from older Mark 1 loco-hauled stock and therefore lacked aluminium window frames.

I can remember going on a day trip to Southampton as a kid with my mother and grandmother and on the return leg we sat in the buffet car - these were all individually named. But otherwise my strongest memory is of the 12-car '91' services going through Woking at a similar number of mph

 

[leo knight]

There was even a memory of going through basingstoke towards London maybe 90-100mph and sweeping round the curve at farnborough towards the coast on a 91 or 92 express and hearing the wining motors at low and high speed on various parts of the SWML.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Always thought they were class 432.

Wonder if one ever got sent up the Hampton Court branch on the last service of the night like CEPs/BEPs/CIGs occasionally did in the early 2000s in place of the usual VEP. Probably not, but it would've taken some restraint from the driver to keep to linespeed if the above is anything to go by!

 

[30907]

Always thought they were class 432.

Wonder if one ever got sent up the Hampton Court branch on the last service of the night like CEPs/BEPs/CIGs occasionally did in the early 2000s in place of the usual VEP. Probably not, but it would've taken some restraint from the driver to keep to linespeed if the above is anything to go by!

A REP+4TC on a SW suburban might have accelerated well, but doubt it would have got much over linespeed on an all stations! From memory, only 1 or 2 sets stabled at Clapham Yard overnight anyway

 

[MichaelAMW]

My remarks...

- All the REP and TC vehicles were Mk I conversions with the exception of the power cars
- In the winter they would sometimes stick the REP in the middle, because only 4 went to Weymouth, the reason apparently being to keep the snow and cold off the traction motors - might be one of those urban myths as to why although the actual arrangement did occur
- I clocked 103 on the Up Local between Basingstoke and Woking, with an 8-car formation
- The Southern Region invested in a 90mph junction west of Basingstoke, Worting Jct., to allow them to use their speed to full advantage - the junction is actually slower in some respects now

 

[MatthewRead]

Always thought they were class 432.

Wonder if one ever got sent up the Hampton Court branch on the last service of the night like CEPs/BEPs/CIGs occasionally did in the early 2000s in place of the usual VEP. Probably not, but it would've taken some restraint from the driver to keep to linespeed if the above is anything to go by!

I thought 455's were the norm on the Hampton Court line.

 

[swt_passenger]

Always thought they were class 432.

Wonder if one ever got sent up the Hampton Court branch on the last service of the night like CEPs/BEPs/CIGs occasionally did in the early 2000s in place of the usual VEP. Probably not, but it would've taken some restraint from the driver to keep to linespeed if the above is anything to go by!

The class number was changed at some point. 430 only became 432 late on.

 

[yorksrob]

I travelled in them a lot, as far as Southampton usually, and to be frank the journey experience wasn’t noticeably different to any other EMU of the time. There’s a lot of rose tinted hindsight goes on...

I never got to travel on one, but judging by my experience of other EMU's of the time, that would have been a very comfortable, plesant experience then.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The class number was changed at some point. 430 only became 432 late on.

Always wondered if there'd been a plan for some similar units without buffets, that (using the Southern region logic) would've been class 431: on the basis of 411/412 (CEP/BEP) and 421/422 (CIG/BIG). A double unit of that power would've gone like the proverbial fertiliser off the manual excavator... either that or caused a blackout for the whole of Surrey and Hants!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I thought 455's were the norm on the Hampton Court line.

They were, but the last service of the night was usually a slammer in the early 2000s. Usually a VEP but occasionally a CEP or CIG. The declassified first class compartments were always nice for getting home from gigs!

 

[satisnek]

Always wondered if there'd been a plan for some similar units without buffets, that (using the Southern region logic) would've been class 431: on the basis of 411/412 (CEP/BEP) and 421/422 (CIG/BIG). A double unit of that power would've gone like the proverbial fertiliser off the manual excavator... either that or caused a blackout for the whole of Surrey and Hants!

I seem to recall that a 4 REP could work in multiple with a two car EMU only, or one power car had to be disabled. Wasn't there also something like this which had to be done if running 'light' (i.e. four-car train only)?

There was also this thing called 8 VAB, no. 8001, which comprised spare VEP vehicles plus a loco hauled buffet car which was through wired for MU operation. I believe that I did see it, again at Woking, but I was very young at the time. Its speciality was that it had three power cars and hence the reserve to work with a TC unit. It was fractionally more powerful than a 4 REP (as indeed was any contemporary 12 car SR EMU formation) with 12 x 250hp motors = 3000hp against the REP's 8 x 365hp motors = 2920hp.

 

[Cowley]

I remember travelling on the REPs in the 1980s and them being pretty quick, in all honesty though they were just another bit of BR motive power going about their everyday business without a fuss.
I only started taking notice when they were being phased out due to their traction motors being needed and pairs of class 73s were being used on the services before the 442s were introduced.
That was an interesting time.

 

[Controller1701]

The 1982 / 1983 permanent carriage working notice shows that 05+20 Clapham Yard to London Waterloo (Main) was formed of 4 Restaurant Electric Pneumatic + 8 Trailer Control (bearing in mind that so far in this thread the abbreviations have not been defined for those who are not part of the railway inner circle) and shown to be berthed on 47 Siding, the 06+15 Clapham Yard to London Waterloo (Main) being formed of a 4 REP and a 4 TC (unless the date is before 01/10/82 when a second 4 TC unit would be provided) this is shown to be berthed on the London end of 48 Siding and then the 07+23 Clapham Yard to London Waterloo (Main) is shown to be formed of a 4 REP and a 8 TC and to be berthed on 9 Shed Siding.

Paul

 

[eastwestdivide]

I seem to recall that a 4 REP could work in multiple with a two car EMU only, or one power car had to be disabled. Wasn't there also something like this which had to be done if running 'light' (i.e. four-car train only)?

There were a number of restrictions on multiple working "beyond normal circumstances", and not just for the REPs - this was to limit current draw from the 3rd rail I think. Somewhere I've seen a document detailing all the combinations that might require isolation of some traction motors. The SEG or SEmG might have more info.

 

[Helvellyn]

Always wondered if there'd been a plan for some similar units without buffets, that (using the Southern region logic) would've been class 431: on the basis of 411/412 (CEP/BEP) and 421/422 (CIG/BIG). A double unit of that power would've gone like the proverbial fertiliser off the manual excavator... either that or caused a blackout for the whole of Surrey and Hants!

They did exist - by default of Network Southeast planning to keep 4 x 4-REPs after the 442 units were introduced. These were four units that didn't have asbestos. However, one was written off in the Clapham accident. The trailers were replaced with ex-TC trailers, so the loss of the buffet made them 431s (albeit still called a 4-REP) and numbered 1901-1903.

The plan changed again and they were reformed as 6-REPs, with only one DMSO (motor coach) located in the middle of the formation, with 4-TC DTSOs, 2 x 4-TCs TFKs and a 4-TC TBSK. They were then to be used, if I recall, on the Waterloo - Portsmouth via Eastleigh services after the line from Eastleigh to Portcreek Junction was electrified by NSE under the Solent Link scheme, that also saw the St Denys - Fareham line electrified.

With the recession in the early 1990s NSE had a surplus of units and as a micro-fleet the remaining REPs were withdrawn.

I have a recollection that NSE did consider an add-on order for an additional 4 x 442 units (that would have given a fleet of 28 units), which would have utilised traction motors from the remaining units. Not sure why that never went ahead.

 

[nw1]

They did exist - by default of Network Southeast planning to keep 4 x 4-REPs after the 442 units were introduced. These were four units that didn't have asbestos. However, one was written off in the Clapham accident. The trailers were replaced with ex-TC trailers, so the loss of the buffet made them 431s (albeit still called a 4-REP) and numbered 1901-1903.

The plan changed again and they were reformed as 6-REPs, with only one DMSO (motor coach) located in the middle of the formation, with 4-TC DTSOs, 2 x 4-TCs TFKs and a 4-TC TBSK. They were then to be used, if I recall, on the Waterloo - Portsmouth via Eastleigh services after the line from Eastleigh to Portcreek Junction was electrified by NSE under the Solent Link scheme, that also saw the St Denys - Fareham line electrified.

With the recession in the early 1990s NSE had a surplus of units and as a micro-fleet the remaining REPs were withdrawn.

I have a recollection that NSE did consider an add-on order for an additional 4 x 442 units (that would have given a fleet of 28 units), which would have utilised traction motors from the remaining units. Not sure why that never went ahead.

I remember those 6-REPs being used on peak-hour (only) Portsmouth via Eastleigh services around 1990-91.
The regular hourly daytime service (similar in calling pattern to the current service, right up to missing Clapham Junction) was formed using mostly CIGs with the occasional VEP in 1990 (possibly interworking with the SOU-Portsmouth stoppers, though can't remember for certain), and purely Greyhound CIGs in 1991 (self-contained largely, with a CJ stop added) - but there were a couple of peak services (one of which divided at Eastleigh, half going to Bournemouth IIRC) formed of either 1x or 2x6REP. 1728 and 1758 or thereabouts out of London, IIRC. Those were, I think, the last through services towards Fareham out of Waterloo of the day, after that the service became Eastleigh-Portsmouth only as it was pre-electrification.

Back to the REPs, I travelled in either a REP or TC once only, in 1986 on the 'Network Day' between Brockenhurst and Woking on a 92, so not especially fast.
I do remember the '91's coming through Woking at an amazing speed though, at the time these were the only services to miss Woking off-peak, though the peak had some oddities, such as, IIRC, a string of VEPs going fast to Farnborough and then all stations to Eastleigh.

Almost invariably, at all seasons (my first experience of seeing them was in February), a REP + 2x4TC, I don't remember many, if any, REP + 1x4TC workings.

The '91's interworked with the '92's, a '91' up becoming a '92' down at Waterloo and vice-versa. Oddly, the '91' and '92' left Waterloo very close to each other, xx32 and xx45 - so not a very even service. In early 442 days this became IIRC a more friendly xx30 and xx50.

SOU to Waterloo in under an hour counting a signal stop - that is amazing, though achievable with a 90mph mean speed. If only we could achieve that these days; I do think there is an argument for a slightly-less-frequent off peak pattern on some routes but with more trains at maximum length to compensate.