Merseyrail again.

[Birkonian]

There is no sign that the reliability of the new trains is improving. There have been delays on the Chester/Ellesmere Port line just about every day since before Christmas due to train faults. Add the occasional signal problem to the mix and the service is not not fit for purpose. My local station is Spital and I also get 'semi-fast running' which misses out my station if a train is more than 2 or 3 minutes late. It is a ridiculous situation.

 

[Edgeley]

Time to borrow some stock from south of London?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no sign that the reliability of the new trains is improving. There have been delays on the Chester/Ellesmere Port line just about every day since before Christmas due to train faults. Add the occasional signal problem to the mix and the service is not not fit for purpose. My local station is Spital and I also get 'semi-fast running' which misses out my station if a train is more than 2 or 3 minutes late. It is a ridiculous situation.

The semi-fast running thing seems to have first cropped up in the mid 2000s. Practice in the 80s and 90s was to either "step up" or take a heavily delayed diagram out somewhere suitable (e.g. Kirkdale), cancel a round trip and put it back in on time, with the semi-fast thing being totally unknown - does anyone know why this practice changed? Or very occasionally they would turn a train short e.g. at Maghull but I only recall that happening to me once in countless thousands of trips on Merseyrail.

I understand why Northern do it with their complex diagrams, but most Merseyrail diagrams are quite simple.

 

[185143]

The semi-fast running thing seems to have first cropped up in the mid 2000s. Practice in the 80s and 90s was to either "step up" or take a heavily delayed diagram out somewhere suitable (e.g. Kirkdale), cancel a round trip and put it back in on time, with the semi-fast thing being totally unknown - does anyone know why this practice changed? Or very occasionally they would turn a train short e.g. at Maghull but I only recall that happening to me once in countless thousands of trips on Merseyrail.

I understand why Northern do it with their complex diagrams, but most Merseyrail diagrams are quite simple.

My money's on "The fine for missing stops is less than the fine for not reaching the final destination".

Don't forget of course on the Wirral line if you run semi fast and get back on time that's only one train disrupted as opposed to the two that would be disrupted by turning round at (say) Hooton, Hoylake or Birkenhead North.

 

[jamesst]

With a silly minimal turnaround time at Chester if a Chester train becomes late there's very limited options for returning it to time...
A) turn it short somewhere like Birkenhead Central, Rock Ferry, Hooton- this is normally done during a severe delay.
B) run it semi fast between a set of stations- a pain for people waiting at the intermediate stations but the quickest way of returning a circuit to time.
C) do nothing and hope it returns to time after a few circuits. Impossible on a short turnaround and once you hit the underground late you'll never return to time and additionally delay other services as you aren't in the right path.

Semi fasts have run for a very very long time. The only difference is in the past they would run as empty stock.

The usual 'they only do it to massage the performance statistics' rubbish is indeed rubbish, you're fined as soon as you start missing stations.
Traincrew and indeed unit diagrams are nowhere near as simple as someone posted upthread and stepping up is a non starter, there would be traincrew and units out of place.

All being well once the 777s are bedded in and the timetable recast is undertaken the turnaround time at Chestet should improve.

 

[M28361M]

My money's on "The fine for missing stops is less than the fine for not reaching the final destination".

My understanding is that the Public Performance Measure used by Merseyrail requires trains to arrive at their destination within 5 minutes of their booked time, and call at all stops en route.

So if a train is delayed and is going to arrive more than 5 minutes late, you might as well run fast to the end of the line. Either way it is a PPM fail, but it may make up enough time for the return journey to be on time.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Because of the disruption to services on Merseyrail's Kirkby line last year, as a goodwill gesture, Liverpool City Region Mayor Steve Rotheram has announced that passengers could be entitled to receive their money back.

Although three trains per hour now operate on the Kirkby line, the Mayor wanted to recognise the patience and understanding shown by passengers as the new £500m fleet of trains were being introduced.A letter providing information about how to claim their money back in full will be sent to all passengers who purchased a weekly, monthly, term-time, or annual ticket in 2023 at Fazakerley, Kirkby, or Headbolt Lane stations.
It is also recognised that journeys by non-Railpass holders will also have been affected, and more details about arrangements for those customers will be provided as soon as possible.In January 2023, Kirkby was the first Merseyrail line to see the network's new trains. Last October, the Mayor opened the town's new £80m station at Headbolt Lane, which is served by battery-powered versions of the new trains.

As often happens when any new major infrastructure project is introduced, there have been a number of teething issues and disruption while the new fleet has been rolled out. Mayor of the Liverpool City Region met train manufacturer Stadler last November, and made abundantly clear that he was greatly dissatisfied with how services were being disrupted.Mayor Rotheram demanded that improvements should be made that were sustainable, and urged train operator Merseyrail to explore every avenue to minimise disruption. Merseyrail have stated that it hopes to restore a full 15-minute timetable to the Kirkby line as soon as possible.

Steve Rotheram, Mayor of the Liverpool City Region, said: “It's been a transformational 12 months for our local rail network. From launching the country's first publicly owned trains in a generation to opening the new £80m Headbolt Lane station – we are creating a brighter, better connected future for our region's railways.

“However, being a pioneer hasn't come without its challenges. We anticipated that we would encounter some teething issues and disruption during the delivery of our new station and trains, but I'll be the first to say that services on the Kirkby line have fallen short of the standards that our passengers deserve.While I cannot undo the disruption that passengers have already faced, I hope this gesture demonstrates our appreciation for their patience and understanding. I want to reassure passengers that we are working around the clock to overcome these challenges and we are already seeing sustainable improvements.

“It is my belief that these issues will soon be behind us and passengers will be able to enjoy decades of reliable service from one of the most sophisticated and accessible fleets in the country.”

Passengers on Merseyrail line to receive refunds for disruption

Mayor Steve Rotheram has announced that passengers could be entitled to receive their money back because of disruption on the Kirkby line last year.

www.railadvent.co.uk

A good project from the Mayor to compensate passengers due to delays, sadly it won't be for all lines like the Ellesmere Port and Chester which also have significant delays as of late.

 

[Class83]

With a silly minimal turnaround time at Chester if a Chester train becomes late there's very limited options for returning it to time...
A) turn it short somewhere like Birkenhead Central, Rock Ferry, Hooton- this is normally done during a severe delay.
B) run it semi fast between a set of stations- a pain for people waiting at the intermediate stations but the quickest way of returning a circuit to time.
C) do nothing and hope it returns to time after a few circuits. Impossible on a short turnaround and once you hit the underground late you'll never return to time and additionally delay other services as you aren't in the right path.

Semi fasts have run for a very very long time. The only difference is in the past they would run as empty stock.

The usual 'they only do it to massage the performance statistics' rubbish is indeed rubbish, you're fined as soon as you start missing stations.
Traincrew and indeed unit diagrams are nowhere near as simple as someone posted upthread and stepping up is a non starter, there would be traincrew and units out of place.

All being well once the 777s are bedded in and the timetable recast is undertaken the turnaround time at Chestet should improve.

The challenge with 'semi fast' trains is that they pay little regard to the stops passengers on the train are likely to want to go to. Turning at Hooton would seem the best way to get things back on track and make sure all stops actually in Merseyside were served, but is rarely done unless the delay is caused by something South of there.

When they resort to Semi Fasts, the block is usually either an arbitrary Birkenhead Central-Hooton or Rock Ferry-Hooton. Between Birkenhead Central and Hooton. The station usage statistics show that Bebington, Rock Ferry, Port Sunlight and Bromborough are significantly busier than Eastham Rake, Spital, Green Lane* and Bromborough Rake. So potentially if the delay wasn't too bad, they could skip fewer stops and get more passengers to their destination sooner. Still not great news for @Birkonian as Spital is one of the less busy stations unfortunately.

From a passenger perspective, cancelling one service departing Chester and everything becoming the train 15 mins later would appear better as there is something particularly annoying about your train running, but getting kicked off early/watching it sail past with people on as it is not calling at your stop which is (possibly irrationally) worse than a simple cancellation.

*Green Lane may appear quieter as a lot of trains have been skipping it due to timetabling issues recently.

 

[jamesst]

The challenge with 'semi fast' trains is that they pay little regard to the stops passengers on the train are likely to want to go to. Turning at Hooton would seem the best way to get things back on track and make sure all stops actually in Merseyside were served, but is rarely done unless the delay is caused by something South of there.

When they resort to Semi Fasts, the block is usually either an arbitrary Birkenhead Central-Hooton or Rock Ferry-Hooton. Between Birkenhead Central and Hooton. The station usage statistics show that Bebington, Rock Ferry, Port Sunlight and Bromborough are significantly busier than Eastham Rake, Spital, Green Lane* and Bromborough Rake. So potentially if the delay wasn't too bad, they could skip fewer stops and get more passengers to their destination sooner. Still not great news for @Birkonian as Spital is one of the less busy stations unfortunately.

From a passenger perspective, cancelling one service departing Chester and everything becoming the train 15 mins later would appear better as there is something particularly annoying about your train running, but getting kicked off early/watching it sail past with people on as it is not calling at your stop which is (possibly irrationally) worse than a simple cancellation.

*Green Lane may appear quieter as a lot of trains have been skipping it due to timetabling issues recently.

But then if you turn at Hooton there's a potential for Capenhurst stopper to be taken out meaning passengers there would be waiting for an extra 30mins, much worse than 7 or 15 between Hooton and Birkenhead.
Whats needed is more turnaround turn at Chester, simple as

 

[High Dyke]

Time to borrow some stock from south of London?

Is that still possible?

 

[jamesst]

Is that still possible?

No

 

[Kite159]

The only real solution to get rid of any "skip stopping" when running late is to build an extra platform at Chester and insert an extra train into the service (like they do over autumn?) and have a longer turnaround at Chester, so it will be a bit like Southport with one train arriving with the next train departing from the opposite platform within a couple of minutes. So if train A say gets 5-odd minutes late it won't affect the return journey.

I did notice from my trip between Christmas & New Year the West Kirby line gets dropped a lot quicker than New Brighton when things go a bit wrong.

 

[jamesst]

The only real solution to get rid of any "skip stopping" when running late is to build an extra platform at Chester and insert an extra train into the service (like they do over autumn?) and have a longer turnaround at Chester, so it will be a bit like Southport with one train arriving with the next train departing from the opposite platform within a couple of minutes. So if train A say gets 5-odd minutes late it won't affect the return journey.

I did notice from my trip between Christmas & New Year the West Kirby line gets dropped a lot quicker than New Brighton when things go a bit wrong.

Yeps, the Chester line is always like the afterthought to the Southport.

If things go wrong it's actually the New Brightons that get turned short at Birkenhead North and the West Kirbys get sent through.

 

[Bikeman78]

With a silly minimal turnaround time at Chester if a Chester train becomes late there's very limited options for returning it to time...
A) turn it short somewhere like Birkenhead Central, Rock Ferry, Hooton- this is normally done during a severe delay.
B) run it semi fast between a set of stations- a pain for people waiting at the intermediate stations but the quickest way of returning a circuit to time.
C) do nothing and hope it returns to time after a few circuits. Impossible on a short turnaround and once you hit the underground late you'll never return to time and additionally delay other services as you aren't in the right path.

Semi fasts have run for a very very long time. The only difference is in the past they would run as empty stock.

The usual 'they only do it to massage the performance statistics' rubbish is indeed rubbish, you're fined as soon as you start missing stations.
Traincrew and indeed unit diagrams are nowhere near as simple as someone posted upthread and stepping up is a non starter, there would be traincrew and units out of place.

All being well once the 777s are bedded in and the timetable recast is undertaken the turnaround time at Chestet should improve.

If the 777s are faster then the old trains then option C should work fine. Or, as you say, increase the turn round at Chester with an extra unit. It's the only route on the system with little slack in it. During the autumn timetable I was on a train 15 late into Chester. The return run departed only four late thanks to the better turn round time. In the event we caught up with the late Ellesmere Port train (which had followed my train on the way out to Hooton) heading to Liverpool, so running fast to ensure a right time departure from Chester would have been pointless. The second trip got to Chester on time anyway.

 

[Birkonian]

Travelling to Liverpool from Spital for a connection I'm on the ridiculous situation of setting off not for a train that gets me to Lime Street 10 mins before my connection but 2 trains earlier to allow for possible disruption. The 'semi fast' option isn't publicised until I'm on tbe platform waiting for a train. This isn't just a weekday thing. It happened to me on Sundays on a trip to Chester when there is a 30 minutes frequency. I was stuck on the platform on a cold, wet day for 40 minutes. Residents in my area pay as much council tax/precept as those further down the line but get a worse service.

 

[jamesst]

Travelling to Liverpool from Spital for a connection I'm on the ridiculous situation of setting off not for a train that gets me to Lime Street 10 mins before my connection but 2 trains earlier to allow for possible disruption. The 'semi fast' option isn't publicised until I'm on tbe platform waiting for a train. This isn't just a weekday thing. It happened to me on Sundays on a trip to Chester when there is a 30 minutes frequency. I was stuck on the platform on a cold, wet day for 40 minutes. Residents in my area pay as much council tax/precept as those further down the line but get a worse service.

Sundays can very often be worse. A minimal turnaround at Chester on half the service of a weekday with just as many people often leads to the same delays.

 

[Pacef8]

With regard to spital station their was talk of having it unmanned and leaving it permanently open like bebington .

 

[Djgr]

With regard to spital station their was talk of having it unmanned and leaving it permanently open like bebington .

Pretty certain that in the years just prior to electrification Spital was unstaffed.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Why have they changed the timetable? Up until December arrivals at Chester used to wait a minute or 2 for the platform to be available and had 12 minutes at Chester - pretty much the maximum possible with a 15 min frequency. Now they only have a 4 minute turnaround at Chester. That is just asking for trouble.

 

[L401CJF]

Why have they changed the timetable? Up until December arrivals at Chester used to wait a minute or 2 for the platform to be available and had 12 minutes at Chester - pretty much the maximum possible with a 15 min frequency. Now they only have a 4 minute turnaround at Chester. That is just asking for trouble.

That was the leaf fall timetable, it requires an extra unit I believe so it's only in place for the autumn. Shame as it works very well.

 

[Bikeman78]

Why have they changed the timetable? Up until December arrivals at Chester used to wait a minute or 2 for the platform to be available and had 12 minutes at Chester - pretty much the maximum possible with a 15 min frequency. Now they only have a 4 minute turnaround at Chester. That is just asking for trouble.

That is the autumn timetable. Extra time allowed to mitigate against poor adhesion. A potential solution to the Chester problem is to interwork them with the New Brighton trains as they have plenty of slack. It does risk spreading delays from one route to another.

 

[Bertie the bus]

That was the leaf fall timetable, it requires an extra unit I believe so it's only in place for the autumn. Shame as it works very well.

Ta. I only usually go to Chester on Merseyrail in the autumn and so assumed that was standard.

 

[Vinnym]

Merseyrail have just announced that the toilets in Central station will be closed for 12 weeks for refurbishment. No temporary facilities will be provided. Bit much for such a busy station and trains that run from there do not have any on board loos.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail have just announced that the toilets in Central station will be closed for 12 weeks for refurbishment. No temporary facilities will be provided. Bit much for such a busy station and trains that run from there do not have any on board loos.

This is very poor. They claim there's nowhere portaloos could be placed, I'm not sure that's true.

 

[A.Macallan]

This is very poor. They claim there's nowhere portaloos could be placed, I'm not sure that's true.

This is very poor. They claim there's nowhere portaloos could be placed, I'm not sure that's true.

…alternative facilities are available in The Empire, The Ranelagh Tavern, Coopers, The Globe, The Midland, The Central, Lannigans, The Irish House, Nelly Foleys & The Blob Shop, all easily within 2 minutes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

…alternative facilities are available in The Empire, The Ranelagh Tavern, Coopers, The Globe, The Midland, The Central, Lannigans, The Irish House, Nelly Foleys & The Blob Shop, all easily within 2 minutes.

I can't see those pubs being happy with people wandering in en masse just to use the bogs.

I think there are some in the shopping arcade opposite, though?

Looking at the station map there seems to be a separate disabled toilet so I don't see why this couldn't be kept available while the work is done on the ladies' then the gents' separately.

 

[prod_pep]

Having themselves cited Moorfields as an alternative for toilet facilities, now Merseyrail have announced the toilets there will also close for a nine-week refurbishment from 15th January - the same date as Central!

This is just utterly brainless. I've never known this network be in such disarray in all my years using it. MTL were better than this!

 

[John Luxton]

Looking at the station map there seems to be a separate disabled toilet so I don't see why this couldn't be kept available while the work is done on the ladies' then the gents' separately.

I spotted a query on the Merseyrail FB page about the disabled toilet and apparently the reply was this wasn't affected by the closure. Presumably one needs the special Radar key though to access it? These can be obtained off Amazon for a low price. I had to obtain one for my late mother. However, I keep it in the car as occasionally with public loos one can find the main loo closed but quite often in such circumstances the disabled one remains usable. Useful in an emergency!

 

[Djgr]

I can't see those pubs being happy with people wandering in en masse just to use the bogs.

I think there are some in the shopping arcade opposite, though?

Looking at the station map there seems to be a separate disabled toilet so I don't see why this couldn't be kept available while the work is done on the ladies' then the gents' separately.

Personally I see refurbishment of the toilets as a very positive measure. Now doubt the usual suspects would complain if they weren't.

 

[High Dyke]

No

I didn't think so. Thanks.