Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Ilovetrains43]

Updated list of current location of the UK Class 777's in the light of transfer of 001 and 008 to Kirkdale from Crewe last week. I was in South West Scotland when the mid week transfer took place by the usual four Class 20's.

Kirkdale C.S. = 001, 003, 007, 008, 009, 010, 013, 015, 018 and 049.
Crewe C.S. = 002, 004, 005, 006, 012, 014, and 016.

Thank you very much! Much appreciated!

 

[315801]

Looks like the deliveries of new units needs to be stepped up if merseyrail are to have enough of them before the 507 & 508 units are withdrawn otherwise there could be major problems if they decide to withdraw them say 2 at a time

 

[ExRes]

Looks like the deliveries of new units needs to be stepped up if merseyrail are to have enough of them before the 507 & 508 units are withdrawn otherwise there could be major problems if they decide to withdraw them say 2 at a time

Although I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere in 3000 posts, how many units have actually been built? If Stadler have completed say 90% of the order and have them stored ready for movement to the UK what's the point in delivering them? they'll only sit somewhere begging to be vandalised while waiting for an agreement to be signed allowing them to enter service

 

[315801]

From what I can remember. The original order was for 52 units with scope to order 60 more, however the original order has been increased from 52 to 53 so there could be either 53 units or 113 units if the other 60 are ordered aswell, only time will tell.

 

[Jamesrob637]

3000 posts and still none in commercial service... Although I get the impression that we're weeks/only a couple of months off now.

Not long until Merseysiders enjoy air-conditioning, WiFi and generally quieter travel (in terms of train noise anyway)

 

[Energy]

3000 posts and still none in commercial service... Although I get the impression that we're weeks/only a couple of months off now.

Not long until Merseysiders enjoy air-conditioning, WiFi and generally quieter travel (in terms of train noise anyway)

To be fair the problem with getting them into service was union relations, not the trains themselves which I don't think have had any notable mods since they were built (apart from batteries being added).

 

[JamesT]

To be fair the problem with getting them into service was union relations, not the trains themselves which I don't think have had any notable mods since they were built (apart from batteries being added).

Didn’t they require guard panels fitting after the unions rejected DOO?

 

[AlexNL]

When I was at the open day at Stadler's plant in St. Margrethen (Switzerland) a few months ago, a 777 unit was on display and accessible from the inside. RFID readers had been installed near the doors.

If memory serves me right, earlier in this thread it was mentioned that the doors would become responsibility of the driver and that a guard would be provided for customer relations. Guards would use RFID cards to lock out a door when they're performing duties outside of the train so that this door would not be closed when a driver requests them to do so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I was at the open day at Stadler's plant in St. Margrethen (Switzerland) a few months ago, a 777 unit was on display and accessible from the inside. RFID readers had been installed near the doors.

If memory serves me right, earlier in this thread it was mentioned that the doors would become responsibility of the driver and that a guard would be provided for customer relations. Guards would use RFID cards to lock out a door when they're performing duties outside of the train so that this door would not be closed when a driver requests them to do so.

The process is outlined somewhere above, but essentially the guard will act as as a dispatcher, they will tap their card/fob on the reader which signifies that station duties are complete and the driver can depart DOO. The driver will not depart before this.

The reason for this rather than just fitting guard panels is that the reduced number of units and improved timetable is predicated on DOO style operation which is slightly quicker than guarded operation. Only about 5-10 seconds per station, but for an all stations stopping service it really adds up - as I've mentioned before, simply adding hustle alarms to the doors required two minutes to be added onto the Ormskirk-Liverpool timings.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The process is outlined somewhere above, but essentially the guard will act as as a dispatcher, they will tap their card/fob on the reader which signifies that station duties are complete and the driver can depart DOO. The driver will not depart before this.

what station duties are they going to lock up the station to stop anyone getting onto the platform at the last minute as you can't despatch the train from inside it. This is a recipe for an incident

 

[Bletchleyite]

what station duties

Checking if anyone requires assistance to board or alight, primarily.

are they going to lock up the station to stop anyone getting onto the platform at the last minute as you can't despatch the train from inside it. This is a recipe for an incident

It's just a variant of Southern style DOO-with-OBS but with the OBS mandatory and considered safety critical. I don't think this thread is the place for a debate on it. Southern's OBSs use the local door key to block departure rather than Merseyrail using something to specifically initiate it, but that's because that facility already existed.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The reason for this rather than just fitting guard panels is that the reduced number of units and improved timetable is predicated on DOO style operation which is slightly quicker than guarded operation. Only about 5-10 seconds per station, but for an all stations stopping service it really adds up - as I've mentioned before, simply adding hustle alarms to the doors required two minutes to be added onto the Ormskirk-Liverpool timings.

How do 5 or 10 seconds add up when the WTT works to 1/2 minutes and the GBTT to whole minutes? Trains don't depart at 15:45:35, they depart at 15:45 or 15:46. So how do these few seconds translate into a faster service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do 5 or 10 seconds add up when the WTT works to 1/2 minutes and the GBTT to whole minutes? Trains don't depart at 15:45:35, they depart at 15:45 or 15:46. So how do these few seconds translate into a faster service?

Trains on urban stopping routes like Merseyrail and London Underground depart when station duties are complete. Nobody is paying attention to whether it's 15:45:01 or 15:45:35. Typically they're timed slightly tightly so they don't run early, same as buses.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Trains on urban stopping routes like Merseyrail and London Underground depart when station duties are complete. Nobody is paying attention to whether it's 15:45:01 or 15:45:35. Typically they're timed slightly tightly so they don't run early, same as buses.

No they don't. Trains on Merseyrail depart according to a published timetable. It isn't like the Tube where it just says next train in 3 minutes. There is a public timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No they don't. Trains on Merseyrail depart according to a published timetable. It isn't like the Tube where it just says next train in 3 minutes. There is a public timetable.

When did you last use Merseyrail, may I ask? They wait time if before the published time, but most of the time they both arrive and depart within the minute on the timetable. Same as buses.

If departure can, in practice, be anywhere between nn:nn:00 and nn:nn:59, there's plenty of scope for a speed-up.

I refer you to my point on hustle alarms. This was not a joke, it actually happened. I've even doubted myself on it and have checked the 1980s and 1990s timetables I have to confirm it. Two minutes were added in the 1999 (I think) timetable change to deal with the fact that hustle alarms and saloon dispatch slowed departure by about 10-20 seconds and was causing delays.

If you want more evidence of slow dispatch causing delays, just check Realtime Trains for the Marston Vale.

 

[Bertie the bus]

There are timetables on the stations. On the Wirral lines in particular it states the actual time on the PIS. There isn't scope at all because the train will depart at the time it is scheduled to and those times are in minute intervals so saving 5 seconds in dispatching is pointless because if the 15:45 is ready to depart at 15:44:50 then it will still have to wait until 15:45.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are timetables on the stations. On the Wirral lines in particular it states the actual time on the PIS. There isn't scope at all because the train will depart at the time it is scheduled to and those times are in minute intervals so saving 5 seconds in dispatching is pointless because if the 15:45 is ready to depart at 15:44:50 then it will still have to wait until 15:45.

Regrettably you've missed the point. Most of the time the 15:45 both arrives and departs between 15:45:00 and 15:45:59. The stops are very, very short and the timetable is an approximation. It does, in practice, operate exactly the same as London Underground, which itself also has a timetable.

The idea of everything working to precise half-minutes is just that, an idea. A system like this doesn't work that way.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Regrettably you've missed the point. Most of the time the 15:45 both arrives and departs between 15:45:00 and 15:45:59. The stops are very, very short and the timetable is an approximation. It does, in practice, operate exactly the same as London Underground, which itself also has a timetable.

You do understand that the London Underground also operates according to a WTT? They don't issue public timetables but the trains don't just run randomly. It is also you who have missed the point. A few seconds here or there don't accumulate. If you can save a minute between stations due to faster acceleration then services can be speeded up but they can't by saving a few seconds at stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You do understand that the London Underground also operates according to a WTT? They don't issue public timetables but the trains don't just run randomly. It is also you who have missed the point. A few seconds here or there don't accumulate. If you can save a minute between stations due to faster acceleration then services can be speeded up but they can't by saving a few seconds at stations.

I'm sorry, but this is completely untrue and is the whole basis behind the move to pseudo DOO - otherwise they'd just fit guard panels and be done with it.

 

[43096]

The idea of everything working to precise half-minutes is just that, an idea. A system like this doesn't work that way.

Or look at dwell times with Class 450s. There's a reason why SWT preferred using 458s to 450s sub for 455s on the main suburban lines.

 

[razor89]

A few seconds here or there don't accumulate.

They can and they do, even in the current timetable. For example, take an XX:58 departure from Southport to Hunts Cross. Here's the WTT versus typical actual times (mm: ss):

Southport 58:00 / 58:00
Birkdale 02:00 / 02:30
Hillside 04:00 / 04:30
Ainsdale 07:00 / 07:30
Freshfield 11:00 / 11:30
Formby 13:00 / 13:45
Hightown 17:00 / 17:00

You can see how the seconds add up to a whole minute by Hightown. A faster train could save 10 seconds at each station here and be a whole minute earlier by the time it reaches Hightown.

 

[Lloyds siding]

You do understand that the London Underground also operates according to a WTT? They don't issue public timetables but the trains don't just run randomly. It is also you who have missed the point. A few seconds here or there don't accumulate. If you can save a minute between stations due to faster acceleration then services can be speeded up but they can't by saving a few seconds at stations.

And if you travel on Merseyrail, and look at the times on the PIS, then you can find the train being despatched tens of seconds before the 'minute' of its departure time. At slack times I've known the seconds accumulate needing a longer stop to get back on time. The tight timetable means that some departures have to be marginally earlier than the stated time. The trains depart 'close' to their stated departure time, not always after it.

 

[D821]

Stadler posted a short video on LinkedIn yesterday from InnoTrans showing a battery fitted unit off. It is marked by the cab to say it has batteries onboard:

[Video] Stadler on LinkedIn: Presentation METRO

We are proud to unveil UK’s first battery-powered METRO at InnoTrans today. This is an important milestone on the road to sustainable mobility, because it…

www.linkedin.com

We are proud to unveil UK’s first battery-powered METRO at InnoTrans today. This is an important milestone on the road to sustainable mobility, because it enables Merseytravel to operate the entire metro-network in Liverpool locally emission free.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Stadler posted a short video on LinkedIn yesterday from InnoTrans showing a battery fitted unit off. It is marked by the cab to say it has batteries onboard:

[Video] Stadler on LinkedIn: Presentation METRO

We are proud to unveil UK’s first battery-powered METRO at InnoTrans today. This is an important milestone on the road to sustainable mobility, because it…

www.linkedin.com

Instead of Rotherham swanning off to Europe he should be putting more effort into getting the trains into use

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Updated list of current location of the UK Class 777's in the light of transfer of 001 and 008 to Kirkdale from Crewe last week. I was in South West Scotland when the mid week transfer took place by the usual four Class 20's.

Kirkdale C.S. = 001, 003, 007, 008, 009, 010, 013, 015, 018 and 049.
Crewe C.S. = 002, 004, 005, 006, 012, 014, and 016.

Noticed one of the Crewe units adjacent to the WCML was badly "tagged" when I went past on Wed this week.
More pointless and costly work to clean it up.

 

[ExRes]

Instead of Rotherham swanning off to Europe he should be putting more effort into getting the trains into use

Having no need to travel anywhere in Merseyside by train it's not of much interest to me what stock they use or don't use, 507/508s, 777s or Class 20 hauled aggregate hoppers, so I don't keep up with the politics of the ongoing situation, but I'd love to know what 'more effort' he should be putting in, should he just give in to whatever ASLEFs demands are? should he stop all other functions of his post to sit staring across a table at Whelan and his gang? blame goes both ways

 

[Vespa]

Blame does go both ways indeed.

The staffs's jobs are on Velcro, if we have no trains to run once 507/8 are life expired, there's no jobs for the drivers and guards.

A new company can easily take over with new terms and conditions and re interview applicants under those new conditions.

 

[Grumpy Git]

A new ‘4 Car stop’ has appeared on the bridge over Knowsley Rd at Cressington station in the last few days.

 

[petersi]

Blame does go both ways indeed.

The staffs's jobs are on Velcro, if we have no trains to run once 507/8 are life expired, there's no jobs for the drivers and guards.

A new company can easily take over with new terms and conditions and re interview applicants under those new conditions.

I think the drivers hold all the aces.
There is currently a shortage of trained drivers a cohort of drivers who could be driving traction and routes in 6 - 9 months is very attractive to quite a few companies.
If they follow though with your idea I believe most drivers will find jobs else where. Remember they will have got redundancy payments which for most drivers of at least £30k tax free.
The union would also seek court injunctions to stop this.

Politically I believe no service for up to 2 years for diver training is not acceptable

The drivers know MerseyRail have their backs to the wall and only need to hold out to get their demands. They are in no hurry the clock is ticking against MersyRail not the drivers.

 

[Cowley]

We seem to be straying quite far from the subject of Merseyrail class 777s here. If we could get back on topic that would be much appreciated.

Thanks everyone