Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Grumpy Git]

The refurb did add good seats, something the 777 has gone back on - they are very hard and an extremely odd shape which pushes a tall passenger into leaning forward, forcing a rounded back which is the total opposite of good posture.

You must be a 'funny' shape, as the seats on the 777's are perfectly fit for purpose. I think a good dose of perspective is needed here, it's a metro train not a British Airways First Class cabin.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

A train that has not one single seat with a good window view is designed by someone whose first thought isn't passengers (see also the 20m Mk3 derived DMUs and EMUs). Though I was indeed referring to as built, as they had rubbish seats then to boot. The refurb did add good seats, something the 777 has gone back on - they are very hard and an extremely odd shape which pushes a tall passenger into leaning forward.

It appears the protruding headrest issue was "fixed" by thickening the cushion at the top. These mock ups really should be done before any procurements are finalised so you can genuinely correct problems rather than just bodging them.

This keeps being mentioned as a criticism of the 20m vehicles from the 70s and 80s, and sure there are no bays with a perfect "picture window" alignment... but most seats have at least some window access, and any attempt to correct this results in more seats having no windows at all. It's all about compromise, and these are predominantly suburban/metro-type trains rather than sightseeing excursions. I doubt anybody has ever complained to Merseyrail about not having a good view into random back gardens.

If you're going to make a comparison between the old and new trains, you should use the old trains as they are now as your example, not what they were like twenty-five years ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This keeps being mentioned as a criticism of the 20m vehicles from the 70s and 80s, and sure there are no bays with a perfect "picture window" alignment... but most seats have at least some window access, and any attempt to correct this results in more seats having no windows at all. It's all about compromise, and these are predominantly suburban/metro-type trains rather than sightseeing excursions. I doubt anybody has ever complained to Merseyrail about not having a good view into random back gardens.

The body shell is of the wrong design to be honest. Once that mistake was made it was hard to fix, though personally I would have had two bays aligned, one to each window, and a side facing seat in the blanks.

But anyway, 777s...

If you're going to make a comparison between the old and new trains, you should use the old trains as they are now as your example, not what they were like twenty-five years ago.

That to be fair makes the 777 come out far, far worse, because the seats are hugely worse than the current 50x ones.

They aren't seats I've seen before, but they are on a par with some of the worst modern bus seats, and no wider than them either.

 

[MattRat]

This keeps being mentioned as a criticism of the 20m vehicles from the 70s and 80s, and sure there are no bays with a perfect "picture window" alignment... but most seats have at least some window access, and any attempt to correct this results in more seats having no windows at all. It's all about compromise, and these are predominantly suburban/metro-type trains rather than sightseeing excursions. I doubt anybody has ever complained to Merseyrail about not having a good view into random back gardens.

What they will care about however, is the charging ports and wifi for their devices, which the new trains have, which is definitely an improvement no one can argue on.

 

[315801]

I visited the 777 mockup in Birkenhead and sat on the seats during my visit and I think for passengers who could be over 6' tall the leg room is not good at all.

I am 6' myself and struggled to get comfortable even on the mockup so how I would manage on the real 777s I have no idea unless anybody 6' and over stand for the entirety of our journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm 6' 4" and did fit but only just, with the priority seat having the legroom I think the normal seats should. It is bus levels of legroom. Which sort of makes sense given the journeys these are to be used for - better than say a 150/2. It was only remarkable because some on here called it excellent, which I'd dispute. Maybe they sat in priority rows without realising?

I'd not say they're awful (bar the seats) - they're OK. They're sort of what you'd expect on this sort of route, but they absolutely don't in my eyes live up to the massive hype they've had. They are markedly inferior to other Stadlers, gaining only by being a little wider (2.82m) but losing on other fronts like boarding being not quite as level, the use of very bright direct lighting etc.

 

[urbophile]

I've only got one return trip to Kirkby to go by, so maybe my views will be modified by further experience. But I honesty didn't feel that the seats were uncomfortable. I don't particularly like the unidirectional 'bus' layout but it does mean you're not fighting for kneespace with your fellow passengers. On the return journey I was in a four-seat bay with other people opposite and it seemed less cramped than the 507-8s. They aren't luxury armchairs of course but perfectly adequate for a 15 minute journey and I would have thought a longer one – and not many people do the longest possible trip, from Hunts Cross to Southport, anyway. I'm not scrawny but not over-endowed with natural padding either. Windows and the view much better than on the old ones. Just as you don't expect luxury armchairs on a metro service I wouldn't expect subtle lighting effects either: to err on the side of over bright lighting rather than the opposite is good I think.

I'm glad they didn't go in for the exclusively (or predominantly) longitudinal seating favoured by LU and LO. That's OK on busy inner city sections which are mostly underground, but Liverpool has very few of these, and the ability to see where one is going/ has been is good.

 

[Vespa]

Today I have ridden on the 777 twice and 2 weeks ago rode it 2 times also, so I can put in some opinions based on my experience, the seats are very firm, I found double facing seat to be the firmest where the single facing seat to be a bit more comfortable, I've noticed the tip up seats to be a bit flatter and the single direction seat to be less flatter with less pressure on the cocyx tailbone.

The ride quality once I got used to it, is fairly unnoticeable and smoother acceleration compared to the old trains, I changed at Sandhills to catch the Southport train to see the works at Southport station, apart from two 777 stable there and a closed toilet block, there's not much difference, as to the ride to Southport itself straight after the 777, while the seat is firm enough I have noticed the raised side seem to support my leg more taking pressure off my tailbone the firmness difference only slightly less.

 

[Techniquest]

Some very contrasting views on the seating noticed here! I might be venturing up to the North West at the tail end of March, so I'll be having a spin or 5 on 777s. I strongly expect to like the trains, and of course will judge them as openly as possible. I'm only 5'10" so the issue of legroom is not one I expect to have. I'm usually pretty happy with the IET sets for hours at a time, so I also don't think that will be an issue for me

If it's not March, then I'm going to try and pop up that way in May, and I would hope by then there's plenty of 777s to enjoy!

 

[142 007]

I saw a 777 for the first time today at Moorfields,
Didnt ride on it, but was amazed how much quieter they are in the tunnels on the approach the station

 

[Statto]

I've been on the 777s & the seats were uncomfortable, they're hard as rock, leg room is fine though, 507/508s have better seating, but at least most of the time passengers will be on them for 20 to 30 minutes, i'd hate to be sitting on the seats for over an hour.

 

[L401CJF]

Caught my first one yesterday, only a short journey. The seats are very uncomfortable. I remember when they had the mockup open at Pacific Road tram shed with Merseytravel staff present for feedback, lots of people mentioning the seats needed more padding back then. Were comments taken onboard or was it like the Merseyside bus reviews were they'd already made the decision before asking the public and it was just to make it look like they valued opinions? The 507/8 seating isn't exactly comfortable for long periods but is better than the 777. A lot of people saying "most journeys are only 10 minutes so they're fine" - yes this is true, but also a hell of a lot of journeys such as Liverpool-Chester, Liverpool (and further) to Southport and so on. London Underground journeys are often similar length to that on Merseyrail - mostly a few stops, but a fair few end to end/longer distance. Whilst the majority end up standing, the seats on LU are comfier.

I was impressed with the acceleration, and definitely much quieter particularly in the tunnels.

I did notice the interior wall panels under the windows (with the wood effect) arnt flush with the walls and there is a little grill vent running between the wall and the panel - how long until these are stuffed with gum, wrappers, fag ends etc I wonder!?

When we got off we stepped on the sliding step - whilst an improvement on the old stock gap wise its still not flush enough for some wheelchair types at some stations. I did notice the particular step we used "clunked" and dropped about half an inch when stepped on. Unsure if they all do it or whether that particular one was dodgy.

 

[507 001]

You must be a 'funny' shape, as the seats on the 777's are perfectly fit for purpose. I think a good dose of perspective is needed here, it's a metro train not a British Airways First Class cabin.

They’re really not. They’re the worst seats I’ve ever sat on, and I’ve been on an IEP…

I'm 6' 4" and did fit but only just, with the priority seat having the legroom I think the normal seats should. It is bus levels of legroom. Which sort of makes sense given the journeys these are to be used for - better than say a 150/2. It was only remarkable because some on here called it excellent, which I'd dispute. Maybe they sat in priority rows without realising?

I'd not say they're awful (bar the seats) - they're OK. They're sort of what you'd expect on this sort of route, but they absolutely don't in my eyes live up to the massive hype they've had. They are markedly inferior to other Stadlers, gaining only by being a little wider (2.82m) but losing on other fronts like boarding being not quite as level, the use of very bright direct lighting etc.

Christ. Will wonders never cease. Something we agree on

 

[Wezz]

Northern Trains to Kirkby will be closed for several weeks in April (no exact date yet) for the final preparations for the opening of headbolt lane, rail replacement buses will be running during the closure. That's all of the info I have for now.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Kirkby line will be closed for several weeks in April (no exact date yet) for the final preparations for the opening of headbolt lane, rail replacement buses will be running during the closure. That's all of the info I have for now.

On RTT looks to be
Kirkby - Rainford busses
from 10/4/2023 -> 21/4/2023
Nothing stopping the 777s still running to Kirkby (and I expect that there will be more at that point)
That could definitely be finishing touches but RTT still shows Northern stopping at Kirkby beyond that closure. (although that could probably be changed?)
Will be nice to see 777s on their batteries.

 

[Wezz]

On RTT looks to be
Kirkby - Rainford busses
from 10/4/2023 -> 21/4/2023
Nothing stopping the 777s still running to Kirkby (and I expect that there will be more at that point)
That could definitely be finishing touches but RTT still shows Northern stopping at Kirkby beyond that closure. (although that could probably be changed?)
Will be nice to see 777s on their batteries.

Correction that's correct, I read it wrong "facepalm" fixed it now.

Although there will be a few days closure in late April whilst they remove the buffers and reconnect the track at Kirkby, a friend of mine who's on the 777 programme said that's planned for around the 27th April but not confirmed by network rail yet.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

whilst they remove the buffers and reconnect the track at Kirkby

Why can't they still stop the trains at Kirkby while they connect the track, the trains don't need to use that bit of track?

 

[Wezz]

Why can't they still stop the trains at Kirkby while they connect the track, the trains don't need to use that bit of track?

Because of the equipment needed to lift the sleepers rails into place, network rail will have a possession as is the case with all track renewal/extending work.

They'll also need to turn the power off whilst the work is carried out.

Just been told that the track is planned to be reconnected during the mayday bank holiday weekend, remains to be seen if the buffers will be removed or left in place for a few weeks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You must be a 'funny' shape, as the seats on the 777's are perfectly fit for purpose. I think a good dose of perspective is needed here, it's a metro train not a British Airways First Class cabin.

I'm just tall.

It is a metro train, but so's the S8 and the 345 and both are a lot better in pretty much every way bar the 915mm level boarding that the latter doesn't have.

 

[XAM2175]

When we got off we stepped on the sliding step - whilst an improvement on the old stock gap wise its still not flush enough for some wheelchair types at some stations.

They're intended primarily as gap fillers, not actual ramps (even though they sometimes suffice for that application).

 

[Bletchleyite]

They're intended primarily as gap fillers, not actual ramps (even though they sometimes suffice for that application).

Interesting, as I don't believe Stadler or SBB share that view.

Seems bizarre to spend all that money on level boarding when a ramp needs to be put down for many wheelchairs.

As to the steps pushing down a bit when you stand on them this is normal on Stadlers (though I don't know why that design flaw does exist).

 

[childwallblues]

I'm just tall.

It is a metro train, but so's the S8 and the 345 and both are a lot better in pretty much every way bar the 915mm level boarding that the latter doesn't have.

Do you test out every new unit and be so item specific as you have with the 777?
As you will not be a regular rider of the 777s living in Marston Vale and the people that count are the people of Merseyside and its surrounds your comments will not be seen by 99.9999% of them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you test out every new unit and be so item specific as you have with the 777?

Yes. Check out my detailed reviews of the 195, 196 and 197 in the Trip Reports section. I do have a particular interest in the design of the physical aspects of the railway, in particular in terms of making things "flow" naturally, but also comfort, design-to-stay-clean, designing to remove conflict between users etc.

I've not yet posted my full review of the 777, that'll come tomorrow. I should perhaps say critique in this case; more things about it seem to be badly or oddly designed than good. My overall impression was that they'll do but are very poor compared to the S8 or 345.

 

[Herefordian]

Do you test out every new unit and be so item specific as you have with the 777?
As you will not be a regular rider of the 777s living in Marston Vale and the people that count are the people of Merseyside and its surrounds your comments will not be seen by 99.9999% of them.

It comes across as trying to find fault for the sake of it.

I haven't been on a 777 yet. But I plan to soon.

Based on the 745 and 755, I think Stadler is overpriced and overhyped. But I have an open mind.

As long as yourself and other LCR residents like them, great.

 

[XAM2175]

Interesting, as I don't believe Stadler or SBB share that view.

Seems bizarre to spend all that money on level boarding when a ramp needs to be put down for many wheelchairs.

It's always going to vary based on the consistency of the platform. Yes, you can go to a station and Switzerland and look down a platform with an SBB FLIRT standing there with all the gap fillers aligned precisely with platform level, which means that they do serve as ramps for wheelchairs and strollers and the like, but I don't recall seeing anything saying that the ordinary gap fillers could serve as actual "ramps" in the way we think of that term to mean "a means of traversing a difference in floor heights". Indeed, I've always understood "level boarding" as simply meaning the maximum practical reduction in height difference between the platform and the train's floor, and thus the best-efforts elimination of the need to step up or down when boarding or disembarking. The gap fillers then compliment this by shortening the length of step required to board or disembark. This is hugely helpful for passengers with mobility limitations, young children, etc etc, but neither of these things have, in my mind, ever been meant as an automatic and unqualified promise of wheelchair access at all doors.

Observe the difference even at this station in Geneva:

(RABe 522 at Gare Cornavin, by Remontees via Wikimedia Commons)

Now, those are pretty damn close, but even still there's a subtle difference in height for which they can't adjust. Have a look at the maximum resolution version if you wish.

This example on a Bombardier Talent 2 in Germany is a little more obvious - if the platforms height doesn't correspond with the floor height, they are patently useless as ramps but still of value as steps:

(Br 422 at Dresden Hbf, by Hoff1980 via Wikimedia Commons)

Stadler themselves describe them as "sliding steps" in both the December 2016 and September 2022 datasheets for the 777s.
The 2016 sheet also includes the line "The low-floor vehicle solution combined with standardised platforms offers level entrance throughout the network", but the only mention of wheelchairs in either is in the fact that the units have wheelchair spaces.

 

[AlexNL]

I've not yet posted my full review of the 777, that'll come tomorrow. I should perhaps say critique in this case; more things about it seem to be badly or oddly designed than good. My overall impression was that they'll do but are very poor compared to the S8 or 345.

I've not been on a 777 on the Merseyrail network (not yet at least), so I can't say anything about their ride quality. I have been on a 777 when it was on display during the open doors day at the Stadler factory in St Margrethen, Switzerland, last year.

The impression I got was of a well designed and built unit, with lots of attention gone into the tiniest details to get it right. The only thing which struck me as odd were the LCD matrix displays at the vehicle ends, a train designed in the past 5 years being fitted with LCD matrix screens on the interior felt a bit anachronistic.

The seats were firm and upright, I agree, but I consider them to be on par with any other metro-like train I've been on. They served me well for the few minutes I sat on one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I did get the impression a lot of thought had gone into the design, I agree, but I don't agree with many of its outcomes, as it has produced many, many unnecessarily suboptimal design elements that just make it an utterly average metro style unit that doesn't live up to the hype and is markedly inferior to other contemporaries like the superb LU S stock or the 345.

Maybe the hype is the problem. I expected the 197 to be rubbish and was pleasantly surprised it wasn't (though it's not perfect either). I expected the 777 to be absolutely superb, and was disappointed it wasn't. Sure, they are OK replacements for 507/508s just like I feel the 195 is a competent modern day 150, but that's no great accolade.

 

[Wezz]

Interesting, as I don't believe Stadler or SBB share that view.

Seems bizarre to spend all that money on level boarding when a ramp needs to be put down for many wheelchairs.

As to the steps pushing down a bit when you stand on them this is normal on Stadlers (though I don't know why that design flaw does exist).

The step acts as a switch, when you step on it then it tells the doors that someone is there so they won't close, I've seen Train Managers step on them to stop the doors from closing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The step acts as a switch, when you step on it then it tells the doors that someone is there so they won't close, I've seen Train Managers step on them to stop the doors from closing.

Thanks. I did wonder if it might be that, a lot of German buses have that feature.

 

[XAM2175]

The impression I got was of a well designed and built unit, with lots of attention gone into the tiniest details to get it right. The only thing which struck me as odd were the LCD matrix displays at the vehicle ends, a train designed in the past 5 years being fitted with LCD matrix screens on the interior felt a bit anachronistic.

They've done that on the new units for the Berlin S-Bahn as well, so I'm wondering if there's perhaps a PRM rationale for it. That or Stadler have a long-duration contract with an LED display supplier and they're stuck using them