Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[barbette165]

Presumably there are two different scenarios here;

1. The step fails to come out all the way to close the gap and the system knows that the failure has occurred. In this scenario the system could be programmed not to open the doors.

2. Although the step has failed to come out all the way, the system thinks that the gap has been closed successfully. In this case, there would be no reason for the doors not to open.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eventually that becomes quite a serious problem if passengers get used to the gap being filled by the step. A case of convenience luring some into a false sense of security. Possibly more risk than the gap itself used to be before 777s.

Unusually there wasn't much of a gap before the 777s in most cases. The 507s and 508s had much wider footboards than most other UK stock, typically extending well over the platform edge - perhaps 8" wide?

 

[kw12]

I am on 777039 on 10.06 from Southport. This unit is displaying "Not In Service" on the front and side displays, yet is in service. The internal displays are blank.

I caught another train displaying Not In Service last week, though that time the internal displays were working normally.

 

[Polarbear]

I am on 777039 on 10.06 from Southport. This unit is displaying "Not In Service" on the front and side displays, yet is in service. The internal displays are blank.

I caught another train displaying Not In Service last week, though that time the internal displays were working normally.

I’ve come across that on a few services too. Whilst at least services can still operate, I expect it confuses the heck out of anyone not familiar with the area.

 

[M28361M]

The through Hunts Cross-Southport service was supposed to return with the May timetable change but I notice that it has been pushed back another week, with times for HNX-Ormskirk now showing on Realtime Trains (as “STP”) for the week of 18th May. SDO at Cressington still not resolved?

 

[childwallblues]

Can anybody teii me please whether 777035 is in service today and whether 777004 has returned to servce yet?

 

[Bikeman78]

I really don't understand this issue - on most DOO routes door operation and dwell is hugely faster than guarded. Are the Merseyrail drivers *still* only getting used to it?

I know Ormskirk trains are deliberately slowed down from what they were to allow the extra unit in the cycle (as Ormskirk station only has one platform) but this isn't necessary for Headbolt or Southport and the issue occurs everywhere.

It would help if all doors opened at every stop as soon as they are released. People have been used to that for 45 years, so the extra few seconds per stop for passengers to press the button and wait for the steps to slide out adds up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would help if all doors opened at every stop as soon as they are released. People have been used to that for 45 years, so the extra few seconds per stop for passengers to press the button and wait for the steps to slide out adds up.

It's just a software thing on Stadler kit to make the steps come out when the doors are released (some of the Swiss ones behave or did behave like that) so that might be a worthwhile time-saving improvement even if you keep the button for actually opening the doors.

 

[bahnause]

It's just a software thing on Stadler kit to make the steps come out when the doors are released (some of the Swiss ones behave or did behave like that) so that might be a worthwhile time-saving improvement even if you keep the button for actually opening the doors.

The Siemens RABe514s make the steps come out halfway below a certain speed when the doors are released. This is not the case with the Stadler vehicles I know of. They have much quicker steps. But that doesn't mean the function doesn’t exist. We save a lot of time by releasing the doors before the train comes to a standstill. If a traveller presses the button to open the door, this is saved and executed when the vehicle comes to a standstill (or slightly before).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Siemens RABe514s make the steps come out halfway below a certain speed when the doors are released. This is not the case with the Stadler vehicles I know of. They have much quicker steps. But that doesn't mean the function doesn’t exist. We save a lot of time by releasing the doors before the train comes to a standstill. If a traveller presses the button to open the door, this is saved and executed when the vehicle comes to a standstill (or slightly before).

Merseyrail used to have this feature but it was turned off. Not sure if that was due to people forgetting they'd pressed it, due to wrong side releases or both.

 

[WirralLine]

Merseyrail used to have this feature but it was turned off. Not sure if that was due to people forgetting they'd pressed it, due to wrong side releases or both.

The pre-arm door feature (press the button coming into a station and the door would light up white then open as soon as released) was apparently disabled due to wrong side releases. Wrong side releases are still fairly common, and there have been a fair few incidents now involving stopping short and releasing doors while part of the train is off the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The pre-arm door feature (press the button coming into a station and the door would light up white then open as soon as released) was apparently disabled due to wrong side releases. Wrong side releases are still fairly common, and there have been a fair few incidents now involving stopping short and releasing doors while part of the train is off the platform.

Interesting you say that as on Merseyrail almost all the platforms are on the left - presumably most of these are on the exception cases like Sandhills and the city centre stations?

 

[Meerkat]

Interesting you say that as on Merseyrail almost all the platforms are on the left - presumably most of these are on the exception cases like Sandhills and the city centre stations?

Is there some kind of ergonomic issue? This really does sound like something that should be very rare.

 

[FrontSideBus]

And how would that be any different from the 507's and 508's where if the wrong side was selected, they all would open!

 

[WirralLine]

And how would that be any different from the 507's and 508's where if the wrong side was selected, they all would open!

The difference on a 507/8 obviously being the guard has to open their door first and check the train is platformed first - you'd like to thing this check would make the guard think twice about opening any door if there's no platform! On a DOO train like a 777 there's a lot more impulse to go into autopilot - as @Bletchleyite said, most platforms are on the left, the driver is so used to stopping the train and opening the doors on the left in a reflex kind of way, so for the few platforms where it's on the right, it's a big risk.

 

[507 001]

Stopping short and wrong side door releases are inherent risks with DOO, negating any supposed benefits.

 

[Meerkat]

Stopping short and wrong side door releases are inherent risks with DOO, negating any supposed benefits.

They should be very small risks if the ergonomics, process, and staff are right.

 

[voyagerdude220]

For once not a train fault, but a fire alarm activation at Liverpool Central won't do commuters any favours this evening.

 

[LPJOHN]

according to the Liverpool Echo a fire broke out behind the building in a loading bay.

Road behind Central Station cordoned off as fire crews move in

Smoke billowed into the air from a fire that broke out behind the busy city centre station

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[voyagerdude220]

according to the Liverpool Echo a fire broke out behind the building in a loading bay.

Road behind Central Station cordoned off as fire crews move in

Smoke billowed into the air from a fire that broke out behind the busy city centre station

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Thank you, very interesting. I'm glad no one was injured.

 

[childwallblues]

Interesting you say that as on Merseyrail almost all the platforms are on the left - presumably most of these are on the exception cases like Sandhills and the city centre stations?

Seaforth & Litherland, Waterloo, Bank Hall and Bidston are also island platforms.

 

[M28361M]

Some new Julie Berry announcements on 777003 which was my train to Hunts Cross this afternoon.

On departing Liverpool Central and again on approaching Aigburth: advising passengers for Cressington to move to the front of the train as the doors on the rear four coaches will not open at Cressington.

On approach to St Michaels, a warning that the rear passenger doors will not open at St Michaels.

Presumably intended for 8-car trains. Unfortunately we were on a 4-car train so this just confused passengers (and the doors opened as normal), but maybe it’s a sign of progress.

 

[greeny11]

Seaforth & Litherland, Waterloo, Bank Hall and Bidston are also island platforms.

Birkenhead Park is another one.

On the WK line, Bidston, Birkenhead Park, James Street (the 1st time), Lime Street, Liverpool Central, Hamilton Square (the 2nd time), and West Kirby (at the end of the circuit) are all right hand platforms.

Been on a fair number of 777s over the last fortnight (including the newest in service unit, 777035 on multiple occasions) and apart from 777021 having a door in the front carriage out of action, all have been in great shape. Despite a great big sticker on the door saying it was out of action, the number of people I saw trying to open the door was very amusing.

 

[WarrenT]

Surely the train knows which side the platform is on, so why cant the software lock the doors on the opposite side to prevent the wrong side releases? or at least require an extra step to release the doors incase of some sort of platform change at a terminus.

 

[WirralLine]

Surely the train knows which side the platform is on, so why cant the software lock the doors on the opposite side to prevent the wrong side releases? or at least require an extra step to release the doors incase of some sort of platform change at a terminus.

As I understand it on a 777 the driver has to press the left or right door release buttons and toggle a switch to the relevant side in order to release the doors.

 

[Vinnym]

I find the wait for the doors to open is quite long, compared to other trains I have used recently

 

[Skie]

Surely the train knows which side the platform is on, so why cant the software lock the doors on the opposite side to prevent the wrong side releases? or at least require an extra step to release the doors incase of some sort of platform change at a terminus.

The train doesnt know. The PIS (passenger information system) might have an idea, but it's not a safety critical system so can (and will) be wrong.

Automatic Selective Door Operation (ASDO), which is being used south of Central to handle some platforms which can't accommodate an 8 car train, is the solution but as is usual on the railway it's an expensive and very complex thing to rollout so isnt viable to fit everywhere. ASDO uses on board kit and balises on the track to know where it is and where is safe to open doors.

One thing Stadler could have introduced is a fail safe: The sliding step senses the edge of a platform using ultrasonic sensors (like in a car) and then uses that info to move the steps into place so they don't touch the platform but fill enough of the gap to be safe. If for some reason the sensors don't work, the step won't deploy and the door won't (well, shouldn't) open. If none of the steps detect a platform edge, that would be a pretty good indication it's a wrong side release. If the sliding step components arent a dumb black box and can actually provide information to the train, then it'd be trivially easy to have them used in this way. It wouldnt replace the need for ASDO as there are reasons to not open a door even if the platform is there (Green Lane springs to mind) but it would make a good solution to the risk of wrong side release.

 

[Northerngirl]

I think the best solution would be just to press the correct button in a timely matter, every other opperator has no issues

 

[stuu]

I think the best solution would be just to press the correct button in a timely matter, every other opperator has no issues

That's not true though, correct side door enable equipment exists on London Underground and elsewhere for a reason

 

[507 001]

That's not true though, correct side door enable equipment exists on London Underground and elsewhere for a reason

This^

Wrong side releases are also fairly common on Metrolink, unfortunately.