Merseyrail Expansion

[frodshamfella]

I don't see Cheshire being a problem at all, Merseyrail already have two lines into that county.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And it also goes into and out of Cheshire

My posting specifically stated "once the line section crosses the border". Of course, the Welsh Government will have no interest in what happens over on the English side of the border.

Why not split the route at an interchange station site on the North Wales Coast Line. The section to there from Bidston would give good access to services using that line and the Welsh section from such an interchange station to Wrexham would give a comparative line service from the North Wales Coast Line that runs from Llandudno/Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog and be solely the responsibly of the Welsh Government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My posting specifically stated "once the line section crosses the border". Of course, the Welsh Government will have no interest in what happens over on the English side of the border.

Why not split the route at an interchange station site on the North Wales Coast Line. The section to there from Bidston would give good access to services using that line and the Welsh section from such an interchange station to Wrexham would give a comparative line service from the North Wales Coast Line that runs from Llandudno/Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog and be solely the responsibly of the Welsh Government.

Because in reality North East Wales is de-facto a suburb of Liverpool and could really do with being connected to it in some form?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Because in reality North East Wales is de-facto a suburb of Liverpool and could really do with being connected to it in some form?

I am sure there are those who will be utterly horrified at that particular thought.

 

[HSTEd]

My posting specifically stated "once the line section crosses the border". Of course, the Welsh Government will have no interest in what happens over on the English side of the border.

Why not split the route at an interchange station site on the North Wales Coast Line. The section to there from Bidston would give good access to services using that line and the Welsh section from such an interchange station to Wrexham would give a comparative line service from the North Wales Coast Line that runs from Llandudno/Llandudno Junction to Blaenau Ffestiniog and be solely the responsibly of the Welsh Government.

Would anyone use the rural portion of such a split line?

The borderlands line is, as it is, not particularly heavily trafficked.
Moving the buffer stops to somewhere like Shotton is not going to improve matters.
It would probably lumber the Welsh Government with an even bigger bill for subsidies than now because they'd lose the farebox from north of Shotton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am sure there are those who will be utterly horrified at that particular thought.

Probably the same people who "live in Lancashire, don't you know" while making their daily journey on Merseyrail, funded by the Liverpool City Region taxpayer.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would anyone use the rural portion of such a split service?

The borderlands line is, as it is, not particularly heavily trafficked.
Moving the buffer stops to somewhere like Shotton is not going to improve matters.
It would probably lumber the Welsh Government with an even bigger bill for subsidies than now.

What use is currently made of the rural Wirral land area that the line from Bidston passes through?

The parts of the line land area that are in Wales are the responsibilry of the Welsh Government and no English body, as the electorate of those areas will so attest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What use is currently made of the rural Wirral land area that the line from Bidston passes through?

It's not dissimilar to the rest of Merseyrail once outside the main "mass" of the city, i.e. "beads on a string" as it passes built up bits which will have grown up around stations on that line and on the now closed line via Hadlow Road.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Probably the same people who "live in Lancashire, don't you know" while making their daily journey on Merseyrail, funded by the Liverpool City Region taxpayer.

In that case, be ruthless and impose a travel taxation charge on those non-Liverpool commuters. That surely will go down well with the Liverpool taxpayers that you mention.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In that case, be ruthless and impose a travel taxation charge on those non-Liverpool commuters. That surely will go down well with the Liverpool taxpayers that you mention.

How? The LCR has no control over Lancashire. All they could do is crank up the fares (and they are higher anyway).

 

[HSTEd]

What use is currently made of the rural Wirral land area that the line from Bidston passes through?

The parts of the line land area that are in Wales are the responsibilry of the Welsh Government and no English body, as the electorate of those areas will so attest.

The parts of the line in Wales, as with all infrastructure owned by Network Rail, is owned and largely paid for by the British taxpayer (given that three quarters or so of Network Rail's income comes directly from the treasury).
If the line was to become the "responsibility" of the Welsh government, the bill they would be paying would be several times what it is now.

I expect that given the chance to unload this line, the hard facts about how uneconomic it would be to operate without the section north of Shotton would force the Welsh government/TfW to make a deal to get rid of it all.

 

[CaramellDansen]

For Merseyside, my number one suggestion would be a short extension of Merseyrail from Hunt's Cross to Gateacre with one intermediate stop

Hunts Cross to Gateacre

What do be lose by going all the way around (the loop line, connecting Hunts Cross to Kirkdale)? There are a lot of destinations along there, it covers the most under-served parts of the city, and it just makes sense to have a "core" loop that branches spring out of... Not to mention the benefits that the Aintree race day could see by sending special charters up the loop line (from Halewood station) and the North Mersey branch!

At first, battery trains could be sent up to Gateacre and cascade the development as the line gets rebuilt further and further, then OLE electrify it when it's all done. Who loses here???

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is the former trackbed that passes through the site of the former Gateacre station now part of the Trans-Pennine Trail?

 

[CaramellDansen]

This is my preference - reinstate both Curves and operate Southport-Preston hourly, Liverpool-Burscough Bridge 2 or 4tph and mothball the direct line. This would improve connectivity in West Lancashire no end, and avoid Merseyrail doing a very long Liverpool-Preston run with stock totally unsuited to it.

The other option is to build a Tamworth/Smethwick style Burscough Interchange/West Lancashire Parkway replacing Bridge where the lines cross (with a bay to terminate 3 out of 4 services per hour and one continue north), but that would probably end up needing Merseyrail to go to Preston which I really don't think sensible. They could have procured stock suitable for that, but the toiletless glorified trams they did procure definitely aren't. The upside of that option is that it might be possible to fund it via housing development as there's presently just fields there.

I basically agree, but I have a cheaper and more flexible solution:
Institute both north and south curves (on the west side of the two lines crossing)
Send Merseyrail through Junction and terminate at a (bay?) south platform at Bridge on the curve. A path from the south platform to the new Merseyrail platform can pass under the road bridge.
Reinstate Midge Hall station (The trains already stop there to exchange tokens!!! why not serve the town? it seems big enough, and the nearby Leyland definitely is) with 2 platforms, so a train can wait as the single track between there and Preston clears.
Edit (I forgot to add): A station by Mill Dam Lane too? Or replace Junction with a new station on the A5209, providing more reasonable spacing between Bridge and Junction?

Only one additional platform needs to be built at Bridge, saving money. The older Ormskirk-Preston service is "re-used", so to speak, to both add a more direct route between Preston and Southport, and to act as an interchange with Merseyrail.

 

[Djgr]

What use is currently made of the rural Wirral land area that the line from Bidston passes through?

Primarily greenbelt. Wirral's policy is very strictly for new housing to be on brownfield sites. Hence massive redevelopment in Birkenhead/Wallasey such as Wirral Waters, with 1000+ new homes built recently.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Is the former trackbed that passes through the site of the former Gateacre station now part of the Trans-Pennine Trail?

Yes, but I would argue there is enough room for a parallel connection. Since the CLC planned to quad-track the route some day, there are parallel tunnel portals, meaning the bike route could parallel it most of the way. It would hardly hurt to run it alongside the railway with a fence between them!

 

[Djgr]

Because in reality North East Wales is de-facto a suburb of Liverpool and could really do with being connected to it in some form?

Not really, but it does have very close links with much commuting going both ways e.g. Deeside Industrial Park.

The irony there is that there is around one through train a day between Liverpool and Wales (i.e. Lime Street to Wrexham) whilst Manchester must have around thirty.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It seems big enough, and the nearby Leyland definitely is with 2 platforms

Perhaps I read it wrong. The last time that I passed through Leyland station, it had four platforms, not two.

 

[CaramellDansen]

Perhaps I read it wrong. The last time that I passed through Leyland station, it had four platforms, not two.

Haha, I can see how confusing that is now! (I've never been!)

 

[frodshamfella]

Would anyone use the rural portion of such a split line?

The borderlands line is, as it is, not particularly heavily trafficked.
Moving the buffer stops to somewhere like Shotton is not going to improve matters.
It would probably lumber the Welsh Government with an even bigger bill for subsidies than now because they'd lose the farebox from north of Shotton.

It is actually quite well used, on all sections. I have been on it a few times just for the fun of it, and was surprised how busy it was. Im not sure splitting it anywhere helps anyone. Ideally it should go into the loop with the other Wirral services, if thats not possible, take it to Birkenhead North, where you have double the amount of onwards trains into Liverpool.

Not really, but it does have very close links with much commuting going both ways e.g. Deeside Industrial Park.

The irony there is that there is around one through train a day between Liverpool and Wales (i.e. Lime Street to Wrexham) whilst Manchester must have around thirty.

I know, what a joke.

 

[MarkyT]

It is actually quite well used, on all sections. I have been on it a few times just for the fun of it, and was surprised how busy it was. Im not sure splitting it anywhere helps anyone. Ideally it should go into the loop with the other Wirral services, if thats not possible, take it to Birkenhead North, where you have double the amount of onwards trains into Liverpool.

Good plan! It is also largely self-contained all the way to Wrexham Central, apart from the minimal freight interworking, so could be a good candidate for adding to the MerseyRail network, if appropriate power systems and safety in the tunnels can be sorted out.

 

[urbophile]

It is actually quite well used, on all sections. I have been on it a few times just for the fun of it, and was surprised how busy it was. Im not sure splitting it anywhere helps anyone. Ideally it should go into the loop with the other Wirral services, if thats not possible, take it to Birkenhead North, where you have double the amount of onwards trains into Liverpool.


I know, what a joke.

Would it be feasible to run a through service from Wrexham to Bidston/Birkenhead N/ or even James Street, at the same frequency as now, and supplement it by a 4tph Merseyrail service (which would like the rest of the Wirral line use the city centre loop) from Neston (sensible limit of suburbia) or Shotton (for ease of connections with North Wales). I know part of the line is used by regular freight trains, but are they frequent enough to restrict capacity too much?

 

[CdBrux]

There is a vast difference between reasoned speculative proposals, with evidence to support a potential business case, and building castles in the sky.
My personal view is that there is a case for limited step-by-step passenger railway development in most of Britain's major conurbations.

For Merseyside, my number one suggestion would be a short extension of Merseyrail from Hunt's Cross to Gateacre with one intermediate stop, with a service from Gateacre to Headbolt Lane via central Liverpool run by battery class 777 emus every 15 minutes (30 minutes evenings/Sundays), extending alternately to Wigan Wallgate every 30 minutes (hourly evenings/Sundays). If there aren't enough battery class 777 emus, the core service every 15 minutes should just run from Hunt's Cross to Kirkby, so that some services can be run by electric only class 777 emus.

I would also electrify the ex-CLC line via Warrington Central using 25 kV AC as part of the national rail network (not Merseyrail) to allow 2 fast and 2 slow tph to run regularly between Lime Street and Manchester. Running stopping services using electric trains enables faster acceleration from stops so that they impede express trains to a lesser degree.

Seems very sensible to me, I would then, as a second step, use the Liverpool -> Manchester new build to remove the fasts from ex-CLC to allow a stopper frequency improvement to 4 per hour, either Northern (end to end) or Merseyrail / Bee (GM) services meeting, and possibly overlapping by a stop or two, in Warrington.

 

[Djgr]

Would it be feasible to run a through service from Wrexham to Bidston/Birkenhead N/ or even James Street, at the same frequency as now, and supplement it by a 4tph Merseyrail service (which would like the rest of the Wirral line use the city centre loop) from Neston (sensible limit of suburbia) or Shotton (for ease of connections with North Wales). I know part of the line is used by regular freight trains, but are they frequent enough to restrict capacity too much?

If you were going to do this you would probably do two Tfl trains an hour Wrexham to Bidston and two Merseyrail battery/electric trains an hour Neston (say) around the Liverpool loop.

I think the capacity is there but it is a bit messy.

Again, Neston is not in LCR which, despite what some people here think, is a big problem. LCR will always in practice focus on developments within itself (e.g. Headbolt Lane (near the boundary but within it) , Maghull North (near the boundary but within it), Halton Curve (mainly if not exclusively in LCR), Liverpool Baltic, Halewood (near the boundary but within it), Wavertree Technology Park, Liverpool South Parkway, Eastham Rake (near the boundary but within it).

I would feel more confident if the good folks of Cheshire and Lancashire showed some inclination to take some money out of their pockets.

 

[HSTEd]

Again, Neston is not in LCR which, despite what some people here think, is a big problem. LCR will always in practice focus on developments within itself (e.g. Headbolt Lane (near the boundary but within it) , Maghull North (near the boundary but within it), Halton Curve (mainly if not exclusively in LCR), Liverpool Baltic, Halewood (near the boundary but within it), Wavertree Technology Park, Liverpool South Parkway, Eastham Rake (near the boundary but within it).

I would feel more confident if the good folks of Cheshire and Lancashire showed some inclination to take some money out of their pockets.

LCR can want what it wants, but ultimately the person who pays the piper calls the tune.

LCR does not pay the piper, Westminster does. If Westminster demands a certain service pattern, it will be so.

The status quo is clearly suboptimal, and attempting to break the line in the middle is not going to be that much better.

Would it be feasible to run a through service from Wrexham to Bidston/Birkenhead N/ or even James Street, at the same frequency as now, and supplement it by a 4tph Merseyrail service (which would like the rest of the Wirral line use the city centre loop) from Neston (sensible limit of suburbia) or Shotton (for ease of connections with North Wales). I know part of the line is used by regular freight trains, but are they frequent enough to restrict capacity too much?

GBRf originally objected to two trains per hour on the basis that their shunting practices block the line for half an hour at a time.

You'd have to choose between axing the freight train (unlikely in the current political climate) or spend substantial sums on layout modifications at the cement works to allow four or five trains to operate per hour.

Merseyrail also won't like sharing the line with another passenger operator, so it would probably need them to take over the service to Wrexham anyway.

 

[Tremzinho]

Yes, but I would argue there is enough room for a parallel connection. Since the CLC planned to quad-track the route some day, there are parallel tunnel portals, meaning the bike route could parallel it most of the way. It would hardly hurt to run it alongside the railway with a fence between

The only major issue would be in West Derby where a Sainsbury’s store has been built obstructing part of the trackbed. Without some demolition I think there’s now only room for a single track in this section, and the cycle route would need to be diverted.

The best use for this line would probably be to create a proper outer Liverpool loop line, without this the journey times to north Liverpool would be too long to be attractive. The problem is it looks like the parts of the Huskisson branch needed for this have been filled in. I’m not sure to what extent this would prevent the line reopening.

 

[frodshamfella]

If you were going to do this you would probably do two Tfl trains an hour Wrexham to Bidston and two Merseyrail battery/electric trains an hour Neston (say) around the Liverpool loop.

I think the capacity is there but it is a bit messy.

Again, Neston is not in LCR which, despite what some people here think, is a big problem. LCR will always in practice focus on developments within itself (e.g. Headbolt Lane (near the boundary but within it) , Maghull North (near the boundary but within it), Halton Curve (mainly if not exclusively in LCR), Liverpool Baltic, Halewood (near the boundary but within it), Wavertree Technology Park, Liverpool South Parkway, Eastham Rake (near the boundary but within it).

I would feel more confident if the good folks of Cheshire and Lancashire showed some inclination to take some money out of their pockets.

I think the folks of Cheshire ( and I'm one of them) and Lancashire would, if the local authority gave us the opportunity.

 

[Djgr]

LCR can want what it wants, but ultimately the person who pays the piper calls the tune.

LCR does not pay the piper, Westminster does. If Westminster demands a certain service pattern, it will be so.

Indeed but as you know Westminster has effectively outsourced many matters relating to local public transport to regional bodies for years.

I would imagine that after the present clowns have departed the Houses of Parliament that this trend is likely to accelerate.

 

[Elecman]

I would imagine that after the present clowns have departed the Houses of Parliament that this trend is likely to accelerate.

Your being unkind to clowns there !!

 

[childwallblues]

I meant that the selection of the name Liverpool Baltic as a choice for this station is much better than the choice of Headbolt Lane for THAT station.

With Liverpool Baltic, everyone, whether local or not, has a pretty good idea where it is.

Headbolt Lane, 99% clueless.

Headbolt Lane is on Headbolt lane. We have quite a few stations on Merseyside named in a similar fashion.
Hall Road, Manor Road, Green Lane too name but three are in a similar situation but I don't hear you shouting your mouth off about them. Local people know were Headbolt Lane is and it was built to serve the big housing estates in that area.