Merseyrail mandates that Trainline tickets must be printed out

[4COR]

Watched a passenger being fined for having a valid e ticket but not printed out on a GN service to Stevenage from Moorgate last weekend. A long discussion centred around avoiding fraud.

That is especially poor given they themselves advertise e-tickets as an option that can be "downloaded into your digital wallet" (ref: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets/ticket-types-explained/etickets) - and that Moorgate to Stevenage is a flow with e-Tickets enabled...

 

[pwharley]

The local press have now picked up this story, which should add to the pressure on Merseyrail.

'Welcome to the 1950s' say passengers as Merseyrail issue notice

Train users across the country were left scratching their heads

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Train passengers across the country were baffled as Merseyrail issued a statement over its tickets.
The train provider shared a post to X, formerly Twitter, on Sunday reminding passengers that "Merseyrail do not accept digital tickets." The post, which has been viewed more than 500,000 times, added: "Tickets bought via Trainline or other third party retailers must be printed at a station before travel."
It prompted a huge response on the social media platform as hundreds of people from Merseyside and across the country took to the comments to question the decision not to allow digital tickets. It comes just a week after the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority announced that tap-and-go ticketing will be introduced on the Merseyrail network from this Autumn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is especially poor given they themselves advertise e-tickets as an option that can be "downloaded into your digital wallet" (ref: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets/ticket-types-explained/etickets) - and that Moorgate to Stevenage is a flow with e-Tickets enabled...

They do need to be scannable. Perhaps the screen was cracked or similar so they couldn't?

The local press have now picked up this story, which should add to the pressure on Merseyrail.

'Welcome to the 1950s' say passengers as Merseyrail issue notice

Train users across the country were left scratching their heads

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

Nothing the Echo loves more than a good Merseyrail scandal! Though the TOC has been providing them with plenty of late.

 

[185]

Nothing the Echo loves more than a good Merseyrail scandal! Though the TOC has been providing them with plenty of late.

In fairness from their usual scare stories about being FINED by Easyjet, BANNED from Tesco and CAPS LOCK button being stuck, I do think on this subject they have been exceptionally helpful in showing up a truly crooked operator which has financially gained from what is... a pathetic trap. No other word for it. My thanks to them for running the story.

Fail to meet the contractual minimum booking office hours, contractor should be sacked.

 

[CyrusWuff]

That is especially poor given they themselves advertise e-tickets as an option that can be "downloaded into your digital wallet" (ref: https://www.greatnorthernrail.com/tickets/ticket-types-explained/etickets) - and that Moorgate to Stevenage is a flow with e-Tickets enabled...

More accurately, London Terminals (which includes Moorgate, of course) to Stevenage is a flow with e-tickets enabled.

No issue whatsoever using them out of Kings Cross (or St Pancras Thameslink) but mileage may vary from Moorgate.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Merseyrail do accept e-tickets and PRT style tickets without much fuss. This whole situation is them trying to explain to customers who have TOD that they need to visit a ticket office prior to travel, however, they are so insular, they do not realise or appriciate that they need to make a clear distinction here, hence the confusing messaging.

In any event, the reason for the lack of enthusiasm for e-ticketing is because of a number of factors:

1) The concession doesn't receive DfT funding or participate in the DfT led schemes around smart ticketing - therefore the cost of upgrading ticket barriers, inspection devices etc falls on Merseytravel, (not Merseyrail), who does not want to pay when they have their own local ticketing schemes;

2) Merseyrail as a concession operator don't have any "franchise" obligations to introduce this stuff, bearing in mind it was originally let out in 2002 when this stuff was a pipe dream and very futuristic. The next concession is due to be awarded in a couple of years.

3) Almost all ticket offices are staffed first to last train. It is highly political. As a result of people already starting to switch away from these ticket offices, the costs of running them become even more of a basket case - some ticket offices barely sell a single digit number of tickets each hour. Not a single one of them are profitable, i.e. the costs of running them (staffing, utilities infrastructure etc) exceed revenue received, even at the bigger stations. Hence TOD being forced to be done at a ticket office.

You then end up with union issues and bad local press for closing them or changing the role of the staff. I think the PAYG stuff will cause this issue anyway later this year.

Merseytravel isn't going to invest in the necessary technology as per my first point, because to do so means that they're inadvertently eroding the ticket office role that they place significant value on, even further.

It was RDG funding rather than DfT as ScotRail recieved funding

 

[JBuchananGB]

I noticed the new white on blue illuminated sign at Southport this morning. For my most recent trip on Merseyrail I ordered my tickets from Greater Anglia, and collected them from the ticket office at Southport 2 days before travel. In other words I understand their policy and complied with it. I have several times ordered tickets from other TOCs or from the Forum's ticketing site, and collected them from Merseyrail ticket office. It doesn't present me with any difficulty. I have travelled from Southport to destinations such as Manchester, in which case I have bought a ticket from Northern and it has been issued as an e-ticket. Never had a problem with that at the gateline at Southport. But I guess I'm a bit of a dinosaur.

 

[infobleep]

Well the post, formerly known as a tweet, has been removed.

Amazing what the press can do. Would have been removed had it not made the press?

If there is one silver lining, it has made for an interesting discussion here.

 

[Adam Williams]

Well the post, formally known as a tweet, has been removed.

X, formally known as Twitter, app. Surely X, formally known as Twitter

Formerly? :P

It's all well and good them removing the tweet, but they've done nothing to solve the underlying problem here

 

[sansyy]

Yet the merseyrail only ticket sells far far more than the saveaway, I’d guess at least by 2/1.
Also with the fare increases there’s a bit more of a difference.

It’s Because it serves little to no difference if travelling from Chester or Ellesmere Port and also cannot be purchased at TVMs while the main benefit of a save away is being able to be put on the MetroCard which again Chester doesn’t issue and non staffed stations cannot issue due to the machines being incapable. It’s just more convinent and cheaper

 

[LYuen]

Merseyrail do accept e-tickets and PRT style tickets without much fuss. This whole situation is them trying to explain to customers who have TOD that they need to visit a ticket office prior to travel, however, they are so insular, they do not realise or appriciate that they need to make a clear distinction here, hence the confusing messaging.

I think the purpose of that tweet is to pretend they don't take e-ticket at all. The sentences were hard to read and intentionally avoided to mention e-ticket.

That is because there in fact are trips which e-ticket can be issued*. Hence they cannot claim e-ticket cannot be used, but spell out a weird message to mandate people collecting their tickets, to avoid getting themselves into trouble.

* One example is Mersayrail Northern line change to AWC for Milton Keynes Central, booked via LNER. E-ticket is a valid ticket option. However, if you change the destination to London Euston or Birmingham, or find the same trip on Trainline, you can't choose e-ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That shouldn't be issued as an e-ticket - does only LNER sell that? If so perhaps our resident LNER bods can fix it.

If it is issued it is of course valid whether Merseyrail like it or not, though.

 

[Haywain]

I think the purpose of that tweet is to pretend they don't take e-ticket at all.

The purpose of the tweet was clearly to try and tell people that you can't board a train without first collecting a ticket that has been fulfilled to ToD. However, because it was done in a very clumsy way, it prompted lots of discussion both here and on Twitter, and probably deservedly so.

 

[Adam Williams]

LNER are just following the data in RCS, as they should.

2250 -> 1378 is E-Ticketable for ticket type code V2X route 452. That's down to Avanti, nobody else.

Let's not start asking fare setters to make these flows paper-only, they're entirely valid if issued to E-Ticket.

 

[MrJeeves]

That shouldn't be issued as an e-ticket

Why?



Adam beat me to it

 

[Haywain]

If so perhaps our resident LNER bods can fix it.

Bods? Is there more than one? And he's not currently working for LNER.

That shouldn't be issued as an e-ticket - does only LNER sell that?

Every retailer following RCS, as set by the fare setter (Avanti), will allow the ticket to be fulfilled to eTicket. LNER has no choice in the matter.

Adam beat me to it

Me too!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let's not start asking fare setters to make these flows paper-only, they're entirely valid if issued to E-Ticket.

Disagree. These should not at present be e-ticketable. Bringing confused normal passengers into the crusade for Merseyrail to see sense is not helpful.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I think the purpose of that tweet is to pretend they don't take e-ticket at all. The sentences were hard to read and intentionally avoided to mention e-ticket.

That is because there in fact are trips which e-ticket can be issued*. Hence they cannot claim e-ticket cannot be used, but spell out a weird message to mandate people collecting their tickets, to avoid getting themselves into trouble.

* One example is Mersayrail Northern line change to AWC for Milton Keynes Central, booked via LNER. E-ticket is a valid ticket option. However, if you change the destination to London Euston or Birmingham, or find the same trip on Trainline, you can't choose e-ticket.
View attachment 155132

As above, Merseyrail don't have any real problem with accepting a limited number of e-tickets. It's only an issue if they become swamped with them and don't have the infrastructure to deal with them - particularly if it causes safety issues with throughput through the gated stations.

Merseyrail, to the best of my knowledge have never claimed not to accept actual e-tickets and I don't think I've read or heard of any reports where they have not accepted them without any fuss at all. There is some unusual Transport for Wales carnet style product involving barcode tickets into Liverpool and throughout the Merseyrail area joining it via Bidston or Chester for years, such as:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

The issue is all about TOD - customers think they have an e-ticket when they actually only have a collection reference. Merseyrail was trying, albeit very poorly, to communicate that difference.

A penalty fare is the correct outcome for any customer who does not print their TOD off before boarding a train at a staffed station. Credit to Merseyrail for recognising they need to address this issue through education/information campaigns, but the execution was poor.

 

[TUC]

As above, Merseyrail don't have any real problem with accepting a limited number of e-tickets. It's only an issue if they become swamped with them and don't have the infrastructure to deal with them.

That dounds a good reason for as many e-tickets as possible to be used and so put pressure on them to change. Their problem, not ours.

 

[Red Rover]

It’s Because it serves little to no difference if travelling from Chester or Ellesmere Port and also cannot be purchased at TVMs while the main benefit of a save away is being able to be put on the MetroCard which again Chester doesn’t issue and non staffed stations cannot issue due to the machines being incapable. It’s just more convinent and cheaper

Quite simply 70% of the traffic that uses merseyrail goes through the underground and from busiest stations a day saver is cheaper than a saveaway.

As above, Merseyrail don't have any real problem with accepting a limited number of e-tickets. It's only an issue if they become swamped with them and don't have the infrastructure to deal with them - particularly if it causes safety issues with throughput through the gated stations.

Merseyrail, to the best of my knowledge have never claimed not to accept actual e-tickets and I don't think I've read or heard of any reports where they have not accepted them without any fuss at all. There is some unusual Transport for Wales carnet style product involving barcode tickets into Liverpool and throughout the Merseyrail area joining it via Bidston or Chester for years, such as:

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

The issue is all about TOD - customers think they have an e-ticket when they actually only have a collection reference. Merseyrail was trying, albeit very poorly, to communicate that difference.

A penalty fare is the correct outcome for any customer who does not print their TOD off before boarding a train at a staffed station. Credit to Merseyrail for recognising they need to address this issue through education/information campaigns, but the execution was poor.

TOD are amusing as often customers are spending far more than they need to as merseyrail sell daysavers so off peak someone buying a day return to Southport from say Cressington is well out of pocket, Trainline should say get the ticket from merseyrail but they won’t do that as they’ll lose money.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Apart from MerseyRail with their own unique online version of a Daysaver, does any online ticket seller sell either the MerseyRail Daysaver or the Merseytravel Saveaway? I know you can buy the Saveaway avoiding a Metrocard at non MerseyRail ticket offices, and from Northern TVMs, but I don't know how to buy them online otherwise. There is also the MerseyRail Family ticket, very good value for 2 adults and some children, but does any online seller sell it?

 

[gray1404]

Merseyrail are giving our a message that if you have an e-ticket then this must be printed off. It is impossible to do that once a fulfillment method has been set. I know they mean TOD must be printed but they are sending out the wrong former message and some of their rent a thug hi Viz staff have issued a PFs to customers using etickets (not ToD) on the basis it should have been printed off at a booking office before getting on Merseyrail.

Would I be right in saying there is nothing stopping an online retailer selling a Merseyrail day saver for TOD if they wanted to enable it. We know that any booking office can sell one on orange stock (as we see daily at the TfW ticket office in Chester).

 

[Red Rover]

Merseyrail are giving our a message that if you have an e-ticket then this must be printed off. It is impossible to do that once a fulfillment method has been set. I know they mean TOD must be printed but they are sending out the wrong former message and some of their rent a thug hi Viz staff have issued a PFs to customers using etickets (not ToD) on the basis it should have been printed off at a booking office before getting on Merseyrail.

Would I be right in saying there is nothing stopping an online retailer selling a Merseyrail day saver for TOD if they wanted to enable it. We know that any booking office can sell one on orange stock (as we see daily at the TfW ticket office in Chester).

Why would they do that? Surely if they’re the only sellers of a ticket, their own ticket also, why would they allow others to sell it if they’d lose revenue (10% approx).

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Merseyrail are giving our a message that if you have an e-ticket then this must be printed off. It is impossible to do that once a fulfillment method has been set. I know they mean TOD must be printed but they are sending out the wrong former message and some of their rent a thug hi Viz staff have issued a PFs to customers using etickets (not ToD) on the basis it should have been printed off at a booking office before getting on Merseyrail.

Would I be right in saying there is nothing stopping an online retailer selling a Merseyrail day saver for TOD if they wanted to enable it. We know that any booking office can sell one on orange stock (as we see daily at the TfW ticket office in Chester).

Although you correctly identify Merseyrail don't mean that, and don't expect genuine e-tickets to be printed - it is fairly easy and straightforward to print an e-ticket once you've got it. Any household or office printer will do the job, so it's hardly impossible.

I'm a bit confused what you mean about Daysavers, they are not available by any method other than orange tickets (and a very specific Merseyrail QR code using a non standard ticketing solution). They can be sold online if a retailer went through the hassle of setting it up. There's some fairly serious disagreement on the horizon with GBR/RDG over proposed changes to TVMs - Merseyrail aren't interested in the latest accredited software and certainly don't want planner based ticketing. I can see the TVMs going entirely once Pay as you Go is introduced fully.

The Saveaway can be issued by any retailer who wants to, in any format available for the product, which is currently PRT, CCST or ITSO.

 

[Adam Williams]

Disagree. These should not at present be e-ticketable. Bringing confused normal passengers into the crusade for Merseyrail to see sense is not helpful.

The suggestion in this very thread is that they're accepted without quibble when they do actually end up being issued to bonafide E-Ticket and aren't actually uncollected ToD. If Merseyrail don't have the staff to cope with volumes of passengers doing this, then that sounds very much like a Merseyrail problem.

Tons of flows and ticket types across multiple fare setters are presently configured in RCS in this way.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Merseyrail Daysavers are normally sold on CCST stock. MerseyRail will only sell Merseytravel Saveaways onto Metrocards, but non Merseyrail ticket offices, and Northern TVMs will sell them to CCST stock.
To develop the debate on pricing. Cressington to Southport is £8.10 Anytime return if bought from Trainline. There is no Off-peak return, for that you need a Daysaver which is £5.95, but you can't get that from Trainline. If you have a Railcard the anytime return fare is reduced to £5.30. Not as flexible as a Daysaver but you can break your journey as often as you like on the way out and on the way back. And you can buy it from Trainline to collect at the station.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Lots of overseas, business and educational sector passengers booking through travel management companies or travel agents etc will buy the Anytime fares rather than the Daysaver etc too, even if there's a couple of extra pounds additional cost to do so.

Certainly some companies I've known in the past would query anything unusual like a ranger - they just want a no quibble, easily understood single or return ticket listed on the expenses form.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lots of overseas, business and educational sector passengers booking through travel management companies or travel agents etc will buy the Anytime fares rather than the Daysaver etc too, even if there's a couple of extra pounds additional cost to do so.

Certainly some companies I've known in the past would query anything unusual like a ranger - they just want a no quibble, easily understood single or return ticket listed on the expenses form.

Yet they cope perfectly well with London Travelcards. Some companies are weird and really do bite off their nose to spite their face!

Companies querying £7 tickets bought once in a while have no understanding of nor respect for the cost of employee time, I find.

(I remember being told to take a newspaper off my claim that I'd had billed to the hotel room in the days when physical newspapers were a thing - it must have cost far more than 50p or whatever it was in administrative time to reject the expenses, have me edit them, resubmit and reapprove - I tend to find these, like my previous employer, have a habit of being companies who know the price of everything and the value of nothing)

 

[stuart100100]

It might have been deleted off Twitter but it's still being advertised at certain stations

Seen at the Old Hall Street exit of Moorfields this morning

 

[TUC]

Do Merseyrail actually have any Comms. staff who check that information is accurate and clear before it is published? There's little sense of any checking being done.