Merseyrail penalty - have cctv proof but appeal is getting rejected

[Randomer123]

orginally posted on reddit and was told about here.

Hi,

Last month I travelled with merseyrail from Lime Street Low Level train station(underground) to go home. The ticket office was closed as it was first thing early morning and the ticket machines seem to be in the office (which was closed) and there was no staff. I continue on and get asked for a ticket by a enforcer, right as the trains coming to my stop, who asks why I have no ticket. I tell them the situation with the closed office and they ring to confirm with the ticket office who only turns around and said they have been open all morning and that I'm lying. I ask them to check CCTV to prove it and they say that's my issue to sort with the appeal so I accept the penalty so I can appeal later.

I requested the cctv footage from merseyrail which shows the office is closed and me trying to gain access and sent it off to the appeal and they are rejecting it and are now moving the goal posts saying the ticket machines were available in the main Lime Street station (which I wasn't in).

I started my journey in the lower street station which I thought was a separate station/according to their website and they are quoting Condition 6.1 of the NRCoT as reason for rejecting the appeal which seems to back my appeal?

Anyway my main question is with the cctv proof of the office closed and no staff and them rejecting my appeals do I have a leg to stand on if I take let it get taken court. I've also requested the body footage for proof of the phone call.

Thanks.

 

[WesternLancer]

orginally posted on reddit and was told about here.

Hi,

Last month I travelled with merseyrail from Lime Street Low Level train station(underground) to go home. The ticket office was closed as it was first thing early morning and the ticket machines seem to be in the office (which was closed) and there was no staff. I continue on and get asked for a ticket by a enforcer, right as the trains coming to my stop, who asks why I have no ticket. I tell them the situation with the closed office and they ring to confirm with the ticket office who only turns around and said they have been open all morning and that I'm lying. I ask them to check CCTV to prove it and they say that's my issue to sort with the appeal so I accept the penalty so I can appeal later.

I requested the cctv footage from merseyrail which shows the office is closed and me trying to gain access and sent it off to the appeal and they are rejecting it and are now moving the goal posts saying the ticket machines were available in the main Lime Street station (which I wasn't in).

I started my journey in the lower street station which I thought was a separate station/according to their website and they are quoting Condition 6.1 of the NRCoT as reason for rejecting the appeal which seems to back my appeal?

Anyway my main question is with the cctv proof of the office closed and no staff and them rejecting my appeals do I have a leg to stand on if I take let it get taken court. I've also requested the body footage for proof of the phone call.

Thanks.

Hi - you will get good advice on here about this.

You can Appeal to the next stage of the appeals process, and no harm in doing so - but definitely do not let it get taken to court. The regs and law are stacked in the train operators favour and you would almost certainly, in my view, need an (expensive) solicitor to have a remote chance of success in court.

People here will advise if much prospect of success at the next, or 3rd Appeal stage.

I assume you were issued with a genuine Penalty Fare and not some other sort of sanction that Marseyrail can apply?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it is a Penalty Fare and you have appealed and the appeal has been decided they cannot take it to Court other than to sue in the civil Court for the money owed.

You may want to post it with numbers, personal details etc redacted so we can confirm.

If it is a PF definitely appeal to all three levels, only the third is properly independent.

 

[Randomer123]

Hi - you will get good advice on here about this.

You can Appeal to the next stage of the appeals process, and no harm in doing so - but definitely do not let it get taken to court. The regs and law are stacked in the train operators favour and you would almost certainly, in my view, need an (expensive) solicitor to have a remote chance of success in court.

People here will advise if much prospect of success at the next, or 3rd Appeal stage.

I assume you were issued with a genuine Penalty Fare and not some other sort of sanction that Marseyrail can apply?

Hi,

Thanks for replying. Yeah got a penalty fare notice and had to go to penaltyservices.co.uk to appeal. I sent of my 3rd and last appeal today. I'm not even sure they are looking at the cctv evidence I provided as there is no way to upload the video in the appeal so I had to upload to an external site and provide the link in the appeal text box lol.

Also worried about anything going on my record as I recently just passed DBS check for a new job and causing me loads of stress.

 

[Watershed]

If it is a Penalty Fare and you have appealed and the appeal has been decided they cannot take it to Court other than to sue in the civil Court for the money owed.

You may want to post it with numbers, personal details etc redacted so we can confirm.

If it is a PF definitely appeal to all three levels, only the third is properly independent.

Unfortunately offences under Merseyrail's Byelaws are not included in the list of offences which train companies are barred from prosecuting upon appealing a Penalty Fare. Therefore whilst I agree an appeal is warranted, it will sadly not grant this protection.

I would also note that Merseyrail have form for issuing Penalty Gates and bringing prosecutions with complete disregard for the law. So this account doesn't surprise me.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

Thanks for replying. Yeah got a penalty fare notice and had to go to penaltyservices.co.uk to appeal. I sent of my 3rd and last appeal today. I'm not even sure they are looking at the cctv evidence I provided as there is no way to upload the video in the appeal so I had to upload to an external site and provide the link in the appeal text box lol.

Also worried about anything going on my record as I recently just passed DBS check for a new job and causing me loads of stress.

OK - probably best to upload their reply to your 3rd stage Appeal when you get it for people to check, but also be ready to pay the Penalty Fare promptly in order to ensure you can benefit from the 50% prompt payment discount (in the event of the Appeal being rejected).

People will check your previous appeal responses here if you wan to upload them (remove your personal details/ref numbers etc)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unfortunately offences under Merseyrail's Byelaws are not included in the list of offences which train companies are barred from prosecuting upon appealing a Penalty Fare. Therefore whilst I agree an appeal is warranted, it will sadly not grant this protection.

Are you sure?

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

(4) The offences referred to in paragraphs (1) and (3) are the offences under—

(a)section 5(3)(a) or (b) of the Regulation of the Railways Act 1889(1);

(b)any byelaw made under—

....

(iv)section 46 of the Railways Act 2005(5).

And in the Merseyrail Byelaws we have:

https://www.merseyrail.org/media/5iwdk5oa/merseyrail-byelaws-accessible.pdf

Made under Section 46(1) and Schedule 9 of the Railways Act 2005 by Merseyrail
Electrics 2002 Limited (“Merseyrail”) and confirmed under paragraph 5 of Schedule 9
of the Railways Act 2005 by the Secretary of State for Transport on 20 December 2013
for regulating the use and working of, and travel on or by means of, Merseyrail’s railways
assets, the maintenance of order on Merseyrail’s railway assets and the conduct of all
persons while on Merseyrail’s railway assets (the “Byelaws”). Pursuant to the Railway
Byelaws Amendment Order 2013, railway assets of or under the management of
Merseyrail are no longer subject to the National Railway Byelaws, and these Byelaws apply
instead.

Unless I'm missing something they appear to be included to me. There was a recent case of misuse of one of the provisions of RoRA which is not included, but it was misuse and they'd probably have lost if they had been stupid enough to take it to Court.

 

[Randomer123]

Thanks for the replies guys. Ill update when I get the third rejection lol. Penalty was issued on the 24th of Feb does the 50% pause with the appeal or have I missed it?

 

[gray1404]

Thanks for the replies guys. Ill update when I get the third rejection lol. Penalty was issued on the 24th of Feb does the 50% pause with the appeal or have I missed it?

To answer this we need the following dates
Date PF issued by Merseyrail
Date first appeal submitted and was this online?
Date outcome of first appeal received and was this by post or email?

Date second appeal submitted and was this online?
Date outcome of second appeal received and was this by post or email?

Date third appeal submitted and was this online?

 

[Randomer123]

To answer this we need the following dates
Date PF issued by Merseyrail
Date first appeal submitted and was this online?
Date outcome of first appeal received and was this by post or email?

Date second appeal submitted and was this online?
Date outcome of second appeal received and was this by post or email?

Date third appeal submitted and was this online?

Date PF issued by Merseyrail - 24/02/2024
Date first appeal submitted and was this online? - 24/02/2024 online
Date outcome of first appeal received and was this by post or email? - 06/03/2024 online

Date second appeal submitted and was this online? - 06/03/2024 online
Date outcome of second appeal received and was this by post or email? - 26/03/2024 online

Date third appeal submitted and was this online? - 26/03/2024 online

 

[island]

Unfortunately offences under Merseyrail's Byelaws are not included in the list of offences which train companies are barred from prosecuting upon appealing a Penalty Fare. Therefore whilst I agree an appeal is warranted, it will sadly not grant this protection.

That’s not correct. You may be thinking of Nexus.

 

[L401CJF]

Nobody seems to have mentioned this yet, I assume the Merseyrail ticket office was infact open, and you went to the mainline (Northern?) ticket office which was closed then used the lift to the low level platform?

The Merseyrail ticket office is located off the subway via escalator, which has ticket vending machines (not locked away) and ticket barriers, which I have never seen closed.

 

[SteveM70]

Nobody seems to have mentioned this yet, I assume the Merseyrail ticket office was infact open, and you went to the mainline (Northern?) ticket office which was closed then used the lift to the low level platform?

The Merseyrail ticket office is located off the subway via escalator, which has ticket vending machines (not locked away) and ticket barriers, which I have never seen closed.

If the OP wouldn't mind posting the link to the CCTV footage that they mentioned, we could resolve this quickly

 

[L401CJF]

Edit, having a re-read and I'm also confused, as the op states they used the low level not high level office, but the vending machines at low level last time I checked were opposite the office so even if it was closed at the time the machine would still be accessible before going through the gate line.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's of no relevance anyway as the OP has made all three appeals before even starting the thread. All they wanted to know is if the matter could proceed to a prosecution, which it cannot.

 

[WesternLancer]

Penalty was issued on the 24th of Feb does the 50% pause with the appeal or have I missed it?

My understanding is that the 50% discount period is paused whilst you are going through the Appeal process, so you should not have missed it.

 

[gray1404]

So PF issued 24/02/24 my understanding is the day after issue is considered day 1 so as you submitted your first appeal the day of issue and your second and third appeals the day you have heard back then you have not even used up one of your 21 days yet for the discount rate.

So when you hear back from the third appeal you basically count forward 21 days from that date. So if you got an email back on 1 April you would have until 23:59:59 on 22 April to pay at the discount and until 23:59:59 on 29 April to pay without the discount.

Is there any scope for adding any additional information to a third appeal before the panel consider it? I am just thinking we have not helped the poster draft their appeal and it might be useful if we did, or indeed still can, to maximize chance of success?

 

[AlterEgo]

Is there any scope for adding any additional information to a third appeal before the panel consider it? I am just thinking we have not helped the poster draught there repeal and it might be useful if we did, or indeed still can, to maximize chance of success?

The OP has already sent their third appeal.

 

[Djgr]

Edit, having a re-read and I'm also confused, as the op states they used the low level not high level office, but the vending machines at low level last time I checked were opposite the office so even if it was closed at the time the machine would still be accessible before going through the gate line.

I don't understand how the Op would get through the gateline without a ticket. (I have never seen the ticket office closed and there are indeed machines opposite the Low Level ticket office.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand how the Op would get through the gateline without a ticket. (I have never seen the ticket office closed and there are indeed machines opposite the Low Level ticket office.)

There's one obvious way - the "fare dodger's lift" from the concourse - but the main Lime St ticket office is directly opposite that.

 

[Djgr]

There's one obvious way - the "fare dodger's lift" from the concourse - but the main Lime St ticket office is directly opposite that.

Well yes.

But either the Op travelled past the Low Level ticket office and the ticket machines opposite and somehow through the gateline (Someone correct me if I am wrong but Lime Street Underground station cannot operate completely unstaffed for safety reasons?). Alternatively they headed directly to the lift in the main station ignoring the high level ticket office there and the myriad ticket machines throughout the main concourse.

The Op does say that they weren't in the main station though.

 

[Kite159]

I don't understand how the Op would get through the gateline without a ticket. (I have never seen the ticket office closed and there are indeed machines opposite the Low Level ticket office.)

Wouldn't be the first time the gateline has been left open, especially if it was early morning, as when the OP was travelling.

 

[185]

I think our passenger has been reasonably clear, suggesting this relates to the Merseyrail-managed low level ticket office downstairs on the Merseyrail concourse.

In fairness, the ticket office has been left locked up & unopened a couple of times when the Merseyrail station has just been opened and so in this dispute, Merseyrail are trying to claim that this low level station is effectively the same station as the mainline station upstairs, expecting passengers discovering their failure to staff their station to return back up to the main station and buy a ticket there, an extra 10 minutes round trip.

That said, I'm sure there is a yellow (cash & card) ticket machine as you enter that low level Merseyrail concourse, before the barriers, on the left hand side, available at all times, even when the booking office is closed. Certainly was there a few months ago.

 

[gray1404]

I wouldn't be so sure. I've noticed Merseyrail staff turning TVMs off when they close the booking office at the end of the day.

The station information page on the Merseyrail website about the station lists it as Lime Street Low Level station rather then Liverpool Lime Street and that it's staffed at all times Merseyrail trains are running. I suggest they use this as evidence in addition to the CCTV footage.

I would suspect the appeals body does not have enough local knowledge to differentiate between the two stations and has merely looked up Liverpool Lime Street on the National Rail website.

I have noticed the original poster has not returned so I might lay off helping any further on this until they provide some clarification.

 

[Haywain]

I wouldn't be so sure. I've noticed Merseyrail staff turning TVMs off when they close the booking office at the end of the day

Well, that would be a stupid thing to do and could cause all sorts of problems as most TVMs will receive software updates and send their sales reporting overnight so that doing all that and automatically rebooting doesn't affect their availability.

 

[Djgr]

Well, that would be a stupid thing to do and could cause all sorts of problems as most TVMs will receive software updates and send their sales reporting overnight do that automatically rebooting doesn't affect their availability.

Seems highly unlikely that there would be no gateline, no open ticket office, no functioning ticket machine.

When the station is unstaffed then there is no method of entry as it has enormous metal barrier gates in the subway.

 

[Red Rover]

I wouldn't be so sure. I've noticed Merseyrail staff turning TVMs off when they close the booking office at the end of the day.

The station information page on the Merseyrail website about the station lists it as Lime Street Low Level station rather then Liverpool Lime Street and that it's staffed at all times Merseyrail trains are running. I suggest they use this as evidence in addition to the CCTV footage.

I would suspect the appeals body does not have enough local knowledge to differentiate between the two stations and has merely looked up Liverpool Lime Street on the National Rail website.

I have noticed the original poster has not returned so I might lay off helping any further on this until they provide some clarification.

A TVM should never be shutdown for opening and closure, it should be online all the time.

 

[Skie]

Well, that would be a stupid thing to do and could cause all sorts of problems as most TVMs will receive software updates and send their sales reporting overnight so that doing all that and automatically rebooting doesn't affect their availability.

I'm almost entirely certain the Merseyrail TVMs are offline, so any updates/reporting from them is all down to a person with a laptop. It's why they don't do ToD, they were rolled out on the cheap.

 

[Haywain]

I'm almost entirely certain the Merseyrail TVMs are offline, so any updates/reporting from them is all down to a person with a laptop. It's why they don't do ToD, they were rolled out on the cheap.

From my experience of working with TVMs, that would be completely unacceptable. Sales files have to be reported daily, and to do that offline would need a team of people touring the stations on a daily basis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From my experience of working with TVMs, that would be completely unacceptable. Sales files have to be reported daily, and to do that offline would need a team of people touring the stations on a daily basis.

There are fewer than 10 of them across the network so that wouldn't be hard to do.