Merseyrail Saveaway day ticket, query.

[shredder1]

I was using one yesterday and on arriving into Chester I noticed one of the new TfW class 197 about to leave for Liverpool Lime Street via Runcorn, I asked the guard if I could buy a ticket on the train and she said yes. Once on the train though, she scanned my Saveaway ticket and was was accepted, which surprised me as its not shown on the Saveaway map??

Area and Zone calculator

Which Area and Zone ticket you need when you are buying a season pass.

www.merseyrail.org

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not valid so far as I know, odd that it was accepted.

 

[shredder1]

Not valid so far as I know, odd that it was accepted.

Thanks and yes I thought so too, yet her machine read the QR and accepted it, both times, because I made the return journey and it accepted it again, strange one that.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Thanks and yes I thought so too, yet her machine read the QR and accepted it, both times, because I made the return journey and it accepted it again, strange one that.

I wonder if I can get away with using my Merseytravel over 60’s pass on this route if in promise not to alight before Chester?

A trip on ‘Happy Valley’ today would have been a nice treat!

 

[shredder1]

I wonder if I can get away with using my Merseytravel over 60’s pass on this route if in promise not to alight before Chester?

A trip on ‘Happy Valley’ today would have been a nice treat!

I expect its worth a try, but ask the guard first of course, the route is still in the Merseyside area and you are allowed to travel between Chester and Liverpool From memory the Saveaway tickets use to allow sections of the none third rail lines, out of Lime Street, and then they changed it, so maybe they forgot to tell the scanning machines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect its worth a try, but ask the guard first of course, the route is still in the Merseyside area and you are allowed to travel between Chester and Liverpool From memory the Saveaway tickets use to allow sections of the none third rail lines, out of Lime Street, and then they changed it, so maybe they forgot to tell the scanning machines?

The Saveaway is valid on all rail services entirely within the Merseytravel area, which indeed includes the City Lines out of Lime St (obviously now electrified too) e.g. up to and including Garswood towards Wigan, Halewood towards Warrington etc. It doesn't include the TfW Chester because while it does have two stops within the Merseytravel area it crosses out of it to do so and calls at a station outside of it (Runcorn). I could see the sense in bringing it in to avoid confusion, though, indeed to me bringing Halton into the Merseytravel area would make a lot of sense as it is in the City Region!

The Merseyrail Day Saver, just 5p cheaper, doesn't offer City Lines validity. This ticket really should not exist.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I expect its worth a try, but ask the guard first of course, the route is still in the Merseyside area and you are allowed to travel between Chester and Liverpool From memory the Saveaway tickets use to allow sections of the none third rail lines, out of Lime Street, and then they changed it, so maybe they forgot to tell the scanning machines?

The Saveaway ticket covers local transport in the Merseytravel area (ie from Lime St out to South Parkway towards Chester, and to Newton le Willows on the Chat Moss line).
It doesn't work in Halton/Warrington/Cheshire West & Chester except for Hooton-Chester/Ellesmere Port on Merseyrail.
It's the slightly cheaper Day Saver which is limited to Merseyrail services only.
A Cheshire Day Ranger works on both routes of course, and well beyond.

 

[JBuchananGB]

The wording on the Merseytravel website is

You will need an all-areas Saveaway for journeys across two or more areas, for journeys beyond the Merseyside boundary (by rail only) as far as Chester, Ellesmere Port and Ormskirk, and for cross river journeys only on Mersey Ferries.

So by rail as far as Chester is allowed. It doesn't say that it has to be on a MerseyRail train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The wording on the Merseytravel website is

So by rail as far as Chester is allowed. It doesn't say that it has to be on a MerseyRail train.

This is old wording that predates the TfW service. It is NOT valid on that service because it goes beyond the boundary first. As TOCs like to litigate these days, it is a very bad idea to try this.

(It might be defensible in Court with a good solicitor, along the lines of that GatEx thing, but they'll just change that text if so).

I suspect the reason it scanned might be that zonal tickets when scanned just report valid if they're valid at the boarding station, as to do more than that is too complex? But most Saveaways are issued on ITSO - does TfW even have a means of reading them?

The (intended) validity is clear on the Merseyrail map:

https://merseytravel.s3.amazonaws.com/Content/Bus/Route%20Maps/MerseyrailNetworkMap.pdf

 

[Llandudno]

Saveaway tickets are valid on the TfW service between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street.

They are also valid on CLC services beyond Halewood to Hough Green - which is in Halton!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Saveaway tickets are valid on the TfW service between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street.

Aha, that explains it! I forgot it called there.

 

[Llandudno]

Aha, that explains it! I forgot it called there.

It will be interesting when the TfW Liverpool-Chester service gets extended to Llandudno to see how many Saveaways get presented to guards on the north Wales coast section!

At least they have ticket barriers at Rhyl!

 

[shredder1]

The Saveaway is valid on all rail services entirely within the Merseytravel area, which indeed includes the City Lines out of Lime St (obviously now electrified too) e.g. up to and including Garswood towards Wigan, Halewood towards Warrington etc. It doesn't include the TfW Chester because while it does have two stops within the Merseytravel area it crosses out of it to do so and calls at a station outside of it (Runcorn). I could see the sense in bringing it in to avoid confusion, though, indeed to me bringing Halton into the Merseytravel area would make a lot of sense as it is in the City Region!

The Merseyrail Day Saver, just 5p cheaper, doesn't offer City Lines validity. This ticket really should not exist.

Thanks very much for that, yes that would make sense.

 

[Djgr]

Saveaway tickets are valid on the TfW service between Liverpool South Parkway and Liverpool Lime Street.

They are also valid on CLC services beyond Halewood to Hough Green - which is in Halton!

Hough Green and Hooton have always been regarded as honorary members of Merseyside/Liverpool City Region for ticketing purposes.

But yes a Saveaway is definitely definitely not valid between Liverpool South Parkway and Chester via Frodsham.

 

[shredder1]

Hough Green and Hooton have always been regarded as honorary members of Merseyside/Liverpool City Region for ticketing purposes.

But yes a Saveaway is definitely definitely not valid between Liverpool South Parkway and Chester via Frodsham.

Yet I was scanned leaving Chester and the QR code was accepted, a strange anomaly. Im not sure how those codes work, could it have thought I was leaving Chester on a Merseyrail train?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet I was scanned leaving Chester and the QR code was accepted, a strange anomaly.

Because it was valid at that station too (though admittedly not on that train). I think you're thinking too much about what the tech can do for a ranger/rover to be honest.

I wonder how much TfW would want from Merseytravel to accept it officially on those trains other than for boarding/alighting at Runcorn and Frodsham and past Chester? Would remove the confusion.

 

[shredder1]

Because it was valid at that station too (though admittedly not on that train). I think you're thinking too much about what the tech can do for a ranger/rover to be honest.

I wonder how much TfW would want from Merseytravel to accept it officially on those trains other than for boarding/alighting at Runcorn and Frodsham and past Chester? Would remove the confusion.

Yes of course, and because I was scanned leaving Lime Street on the way back, it was still in a valid area, yes I see whats happened now, thanks. Its a good job I didnt get off at Frodingham or Runcorn then, because I wouldnt have had a valid ticket, despite the guard telling me it was valid.

 

[L401CJF]

The CIS screens on the platforms at Chester specifically say Merseytravel Saveaways are not valid on the Lime Street service once its finished scrolling through all the stops.

I always do an announcement before departing stating that Merseytravel / Merseyrail passes are not valid and passengers should go for the next Merseyrail service.

Edit - as mentioned above, they are valid between Lime St and South Parkway.

 

[Djgr]

I think this validity map might help. If it's grey, stay away. Alternatively, if it's black, woollyback!

 

[ADHDTog]

To the best of my recollection of the wording on the back of the old paper saveaways used to say that it was valid for journeys that began and ended within the boundaries. I haven't had a look at the up-to-date terms in few years though because it's not a type of ticket but I tend to use anymore

 

[Bletchleyite]

To the best of my recollection of the wording on the back of the old paper saveaways used to say that it was valid for journeys that began and ended within the boundaries. I haven't had a look at the up-to-date terms in few years though because it's not a type of ticket but I tend to use anymore

There probably weren't any services that went out of the boundary then back in back then, particularly as validity didn't go to Chester or Ormskirk until about 10 years ago, only to Maghull and Hooton.

 

[L401CJF]

To the best of my recollection of the wording on the back of the old paper saveaways used to say that it was valid for journeys that began and ended within the boundaries. I haven't had a look at the up-to-date terms in few years though because it's not a type of ticket but I tend to use anymore

We tried this on a bus once back in the paper Saveaway days and the driver was having non of it despite showing him the wording on the back. I can't remember the route but I believe it went out of Merseyside into Lancashire CC then back into Merseyside.

Another one we tried years ago was catching a train from Chester with a Saveaway which departed just before 0630am. The wording on the back said not valid for journeys scheduled to depart between 0630 and 0929 or something like that. So it would be peak time on arrival into Liverpool, but the scheduled departure time was before 0630 so valid. Staff questioned it at the barriers but with a quick explanation and they were happy.

 

[Djgr]

Current T+Cs say this

" If you make a journey outside of the valid area(s) of your Saveaway Ticket or if your journey crosses the ticket boundary to Cheshire, Halton, Greater Manchester or Lancashire (except where stated in clause 3.2 above), that part of your journey is not covered by the Saveaway Ticket and you will be subject to additional fares from the point you leave the ticket boundary to your final destination. You are responsible for ensuring that your Saveaway Ticket covers your entire journey and where it does not, that you have purchased any additional tickets required to reach your destination before setting off"

Clause 2 above refers to rail only to Ormskirk, Chester and Ellesmere Port.

 

[shredder1]

The CIS screens on the platforms at Chester specifically say Merseytravel Saveaways are not valid on the Lime Street service once its finished scrolling through all the stops.

I always do an announcement before departing stating that Merseytravel / Merseyrail passes are not valid and passengers should go for the next Merseyrail service.

Edit - as mentioned above, they are valid between Lime St and South Parkway.

Thanks for that, I didnt see the screens, just the new class 197, I asked the guard could I buy a ticket on the train and she said yes before I got on the train, as I didnt think for one minute the Saveaway was valid, however she saw it in my wallet on the table, scanned it and said it was valid and I didnt need to buy another ticket, I think we know what happened now though and of course I realise now wasnt valid.

Current T+Cs say this

" If you make a journey outside of the valid area(s) of your Saveaway Ticket or if your journey crosses the ticket boundary to Cheshire, Halton, Greater Manchester or Lancashire (except where stated in clause 3.2 above), that part of your journey is not covered by the Saveaway Ticket and you will be subject to additional fares from the point you leave the ticket boundary to your final destination. You are responsible for ensuring that your Saveaway Ticket covers your entire journey and where it does not, that you have purchased any additional tickets required to reach your destination before setting off"

Clause 2 above refers to rail only to Ormskirk, Chester and Ellesmere Port.

It caught me out, and I suppose your average traveller just goes off what the guard tells them

 

[8A Rail]

Hough Green and Hooton have always been regarded as honorary members of Merseyside/Liverpool City Region for ticketing purposes.

But yes a Saveaway is definitely definitely not valid between Liverpool South Parkway and Chester via Frodsham.

So is Rainford if you go by train (means changing at Kirkby) but strangely it has Northern signage though unlike other stations including Hough Green that has Merseytravel signage. May be that is the general guide, if it has Merseytravel signage that you are fine, if it does not then don't use a Saveaway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So is Rainford if you go by train (means changing at Kirkby) but strangely it has Northern signage though unlike other stations including Hough Green that has Merseytravel signage.

Rainford is actually in (what was) Merseyside despite being traditional Lancashire, in St Helens borough. The yellow bus stop flags are a giveaway!

The Lancashire boundary runs just north of it.

Having checked the OS map, Garswood is in former Merseyside too (again part of St Helens borough), I'm not quite sure why someone above thought it wasn't.

Hough Green on the CLC is the oddity, the station is about 200m east of the boundary, in Halton.

Are you perhaps thinking of the way it used to be the case that GMPTE tickets met the Merseytravel boundary at Rainford, with GMPTE validity extending into Lancashire and a bit of Merseyside, which was the case until the mid 1990s (I once got caught out by it as I had an old map, but as it was back in more reasonable days rather than an MG11 or PF I was let off on the basis of "don't do it again" when I showed the map)?

 

[Djgr]

So is Rainford if you go by train (means changing at Kirkby) but strangely it has Northern signage though unlike other stations including Hough Green that has Merseytravel signage. May be that is the general guide, if it has Merseytravel signage that you are fine, if it does not then don't use a Saveaway.

That doesn't work as Upton and Heswall both have TfW signage but both perfectly valid. And perhaps Meols Cop? Also completely valid.

What is true is that Saveaway validity ignores the fact that the train from Kirkby to Rainford passes in and out of modern day Lancashire as does the line to Newton-le-Willows.

Rainford is actually in (what was) Merseyside despite being traditional Lancashire, in St Helens borough. The yellow bus stop flags are a giveaway!

The Lancashire boundary runs just north of it.

Having checked the OS map, Garswood is in former Merseyside too (again part of St Helens borough), I'm not quite sure why someone above thought it wasn't.

Hough Green on the CLC is the oddity, the station is about 200m east of the boundary, in Halton.

Are you perhaps thinking of the way it used to be the case that GMPTE tickets met the Merseytravel boundary at Rainford, with GMPTE validity extending into Lancashire and a bit of Merseyside, which was the case until the mid 1990s (I once got caught out by it as I had an old map, but as it was back in more reasonable days rather than an MG11 or PF I was let off on the basis of "don't do it again" when I showed the map)?

Hooton was also only about 200 yards into modern day Cheshire but there was a boundary change around 2000 where Cheshire snaffled the land right up to the M53 motorway, moving the boundary further north

 

[Vespa]

Personally I think out of area lines that starts and finishes in a merseyrail savaway operated area should be valid as long as you remain on the train to alight at the next available merseyrail operated station.

Tfw Chester to Lime street via Frodsham is a good example of that as it's a duplicate of Merseyrail Chester to Line st, it does seem silly to travel all the way to Liverpool to get to Chester if you live in Newton-Le-Willows to stay legal.

*Merseyside ENCTS would be better made valid for such and out of area closed loop route.

 

[Parjon]

Given Merseytravel have funded this service to get it up and running it's a nonsense that via Runcorn and via Birkenhead tickets aren't interchangeable. Get Frodsham and Helsby into the Chester zone asap. As for Runcorn. It's been formally re-integrated as a Liverpool borough for how long now? And still not included in the citywide fares. This country is pathetic sometimes!!

 

[Djgr]

The key outstanding aspect is that Halton, as an integral part of Liverpool City Region, should be integrated into LCR ticketing.

The Saveaway is essentially a ticket for LCR. The interloping into (modern day) Cheshire and Lancashire is a nice bonus for days out but also acts to confuse.

So Runcorn yes, Frodsham and Helsby no