Merseyrail say you should wait at unmanned booking office to avoid a Penalty Fare

[gray1404]

I came across this disturbing video today we're a man was unlawfully ejected with unreasonable force from a Merseyrail train and station. The passenger was calm throughout and very distressed and was explaining that when he got to the booking office it was not staffed. He even waited around 3 minutes but no staff member appeared and he started his journey without having had an opportunity to purchase.

Very disturbing a member of Merseyrail bylaw enforcement staff attempted to penalty fare him but when the customer insisted that he had not had an opportunity to pay his fare as the booking office was not manned they unlawfully ejected him from the train.

A penalty fare cannot be issued in the circumstances and the same by law enforcement officers some of whom have been found guilty of assaulting customers in court.

 

[NorthWestRover]

Wow. That is shocking. For once we can see both sides of the argument too.

 

[WesternLancer]

Was that video included in the Liverpool bid to host Eurovision? "come to our city and get a warm welcome when travelling to the song contest if the ticket office isn't staffed when you arrive at the station*"

*t&c's apply

I assume that he would not have been ejected from the train if he had not refused to give his details, as was mentioned at an early part of the exchange?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

a man was unlawfully ejected with unreasonable force from a Merseyrail train and station.

they unlawfully ejected him from the train.

You might want to take a look at Merseyrail byelaw 24 at https://www.merseyrail.org/about-merseyrail/merseyrail-byelaws.aspx. (I would cut and paste but I am struggling to get it to do so on my phone.) In the light of this, specifically byelaw 24.2(ii) what makes you think that the railway staff were acting unlawfully?

Having said which, I am concerned that the railway staff seem to think that the ticket office being unstaffed is not adequate reason for not having a ticket before travelling.

 

[Darandio]

The video has been ripped from another channel and re-uploaded, it's what that channel does and the video is much older than 2 months. I'm sure the original was discussed on here some time ago, I just cannot find it.

 

[Benjwri]

You might want to take a look at Merseyrail byelaw 24 at https://www.merseyrail.org/about-merseyrail/merseyrail-byelaws.aspx. (I would cut and paste but I am struggling to get it to do so on my phone.) In the light of this, specifically byelaw 24.2(ii) what makes you think that the railway staff were acting unlawfully?

It doesn't even come down to the Merseyrail Bylaws, although whether they could be classed as reasonably believing they were in breach is debatable. There is no right to travel on the railways in the UK, and the passenger had not purchased a ticket, so Merseyrail was not obliged to convey them to their destination. The member of staff was within their rights as a representative of Merseyrail to ask them to leave the property, and follow it up with enforcement, in the same way you could be asked to leave your local Tesco.

Whether it was right of the employee and Merseyrail to do so is another issue.

 

[gray1404]

That's incorrect actually it is established in the National Rail Conditions of Travel that a passenger can board a service when there is not an opportunity to purchase a ticket before travelling and then purchase at the first opportunity.

The passenger was removed for failing to give details for the purposes of issuing a penalty fare however there was no such grounds for issuing a penalty fare as thete have not been an opportunity to purchase a had as the booking office was not manned.

 

[furlong]

There is no right to travel on the railways in the UK, and the passenger had not purchased a ticket, so Merseyrail was not obliged to convey them to their destination.

So if there is no obligation (=contract), there is also no requirement for the passenger to pay anything for the service they received prior to the point where they do buy a ticket?
This really is NOT how this works!

 

[WesternLancer]

Well the guy threatened to take the staff to court if they touched him. I wonder how he got on? With support from this forum he might have been able to make a good case.

Tho I guess he would have had to have prooved he waited at the ticket window long enough (was 3 mins long enough) and in fairness to the staff at the ticket office I would assume the station is single staffed so the ticket office person might need to go to the lav and that could take longer than 3 mins.

 

[AlterEgo]

Always beware of anything posted by any waste of space “auditing” accounts, and don’t ever take their stories at face value.

 

[Kilopylae]

in the same way you could be asked to leave your local Tesco.

Except by police, force can't be used to eject you from (say) a Tesco's.

 

[AlterEgo]

Except by police, force can't be used to eject you from (say) a Tesco's.

Yes it can, for any private property, as long as the force is reasonable.

 

[Vespa]

To be fair they probably heard it all before.

It might have been prudent in such a circumstance to record himself waiting at a ticket office and the train time display board, then stating the situation and length of time of waiting to show any doubtful staff.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I have been known to board a Merseyrail train without a ticket when the booking office was closed. On that occasion there was a sign in the window advising to purchase at destination and that enforcement team were aware. I did not encounter an RPI, and did buy my ticket at my destination. If it happens again I will definitely take a photo of the vacant booking office and any sign being displayed.

 

[bramling]

Always beware of anything posted by any waste of space “auditing” accounts, and don’t ever take their stories at face value.

Face value or otherwise, I’m pretty uncomfortable with the concept of “security” types physically dragging people off trains, which is clearly what happened here.

Try that sort of thing on something like Southeastern metro and I don’t think the results would be too pretty.

Whilst there is the big problem of BTP being spread very thinly, my view is they are the correct people to do this sort of thing.

 

[Grumpy Git]

When the window is closed at our local Merseyrail Northern Line station, there is never any problem whatsoever with the RPI staff at Central, they just sell you a ticket there and then.

 

[Foxcover]

I always take a photo of the notice when there’s that sort of temporary booking office closure on Merseyrail, which isn’t infrequent.

The whole ticket sales/revenue protection/enforcement end to end process is so riddled with errors and inconsistency (see many threads here) that unfortunately you do have to be particularly careful to protect your back as a law-abiding citizen on Merseyrail.

One time Hamilton Square (for the umpteenth time) couldn’t work out how to apply a 16/17 railcard saver and issued my 17 year old daughter with a child ticket and said not to worry. I immediately messaged their social media team outlining what had just happened, and got them to confirm by return that she was permitted to travel with a child ticket, and for the return journey, asked them to arrange with Lime St to give her the proper ticket for free when she returned that evening, which to be fair they did. It’s too important to future careers to leave to chance.

Hopefully the poor chap‘s case here was borne out by booking office CCTV.

 

[bramling]

I always take a photo of the notice when there’s that sort of temporary booking office closure on Merseyrail, which isn’t infrequent.

The whole ticket sales/revenue protection/enforcement end to end process is so riddled with errors and inconsistency (see many threads here) that unfortunately you do have to be particularly careful to protect your back as a law-abiding citizen on Merseyrail.

One time Hamilton Square (for the umpteenth time) couldn’t work out how to do a 16/17 railcard saver and issued my 17 year old daughter with a child ticket and said not to worry. I immediately messaged their social media team outlining what had just happened, and got them to confirm by return that she was permitted to travel with a child ticket, and for the return journey, asked them to arrange with Lime St to give her the proper ticket for free when she returned that evening, which to be fair they did. It’s too important to future careers to leave to chance.

Hopefully the poor chap‘s case here was borne out by booking office CCTV.

Have to say this has been my experience at times as well. I can certainly remember turning up somewhere (IIRC it was St Michaels) to find the window was open but no member of staff visible, ended up standing there for a good 15 minutes before he appeared. I've also on more than one occasion had staff not knowing how to issue a PRIV ticket, which is pretty surprising as one would think that would rate among the bread & butter transactions.

 

[Sprinter107]

I find that video quite disturbing. The passenger told them he always bought a ticket. I assume they hadn't dealt with him before, so had no reason not to believe him. The booking clerks arent always at the window, and passengers shouldn't be missing trains because of it. I would think there was CCTV in the booking hall that coukd prove how long he was waiting. They should have given him the benefit of the doubt and sold him a ticket, and just politely reminded him that he needed a ticket before boarding.

 

[gray1404]

If a passenger gets to the booking office and it is not manned then surely there is no requirement for them to wait around just in case and miss their train. A booking office is either open or it is closed. If the clark needs to go and do something else then it is temporarily closed.

The rent a thug here clearly doesn't understand that. His comment that the customer should have waited longer proves that.

It is high time Merseyrail had ticket vending machines at every station or more ideally the ability to tap on and off using a contactless card.

 

[Starmill]

When the window is closed at our local Merseyrail Northern Line station, there is never any problem whatsoever with the RPI staff at Central, they just sell you a ticket there and then.

Yes, this is the correct reaction. While not the norm this does happen on Merseyrail occasionally and I would be surprised to see any issues with it if the customer says they need to pay their fare.

The member of staff was within their rights as a representative of Merseyrail to ask them to leave the property, and follow it up with enforcement, in the same way you could be asked to leave your local Tesco.

This is incorrect. It is possible for Tesco to ask you to leave their private property because they aren't breaking a contract with you in so doing. When you approach the checkouts in Tesco, you're offering the company money in exchange for listed items. They are free to accept or decline this. Any items from the shop you're carrying at that point still belong to Tesco and you don't have rights over them.

However, if a customer is already onboard a train, and has shown their intention to pay the correct fare, an implied contract already exists. Neither party can at that stage back out of their consideration without the agreement of the other. Obviously if the payment for the ticket wasn't possible to make before boarding the train it must be made at the earliest opportunity onboard or subsequently.

I always take a photo of the notice when there’s that sort of temporary booking office closure on Merseyrail, which isn’t infrequent.

The whole ticket sales/revenue protection/enforcement end to end process is so riddled with errors and inconsistency (see many threads here) that unfortunately you do have to be particularly careful to protect your back as a law-abiding citizen on Merseyrail.

One time Hamilton Square (for the umpteenth time) couldn’t work out how to apply a 16/17 railcard saver and issued my 17 year old daughter with a child ticket and said not to worry. I immediately messaged their social media team outlining what had just happened, and got them to confirm by return that she was permitted to travel with a child ticket, and for the return journey, asked them to arrange with Lime St to give her the proper ticket for free when she returned that evening, which to be fair they did. It’s too important to future careers to leave to chance.

Hopefully the poor chap‘s case here was borne out by booking office CCTV.

It's good advice to always check to make sure you have your correct ticket with you before boarding, and to take these extra steps in any circumstances where that cannot happen, I agree. It shouldn't be this way, but unfortunately it is.

 

[Foxcover]

If a passenger gets to the booking office and it is not manned then surely there is no requirement for them to wait around just in case and miss their train. A booking office is either open or it is closed. If the clark needs to go and do something else then it is temporarily closed.

The rent a thug here clearly doesn't understand that. His comment that the customer should have waited longer proves that.

It is high time Merseyrail had ticket vending machines at every station or more ideally the ability to tap on and off using a contactless card.

And/or simply sell and accept e-tickets like other train operators …

 

[ChewChewTrain]

Always beware of anything posted by any waste of space “auditing” accounts, and don’t ever take their stories at face value.

Exactly. These people gleefully latch on to any opportunity to start filming, escalating, and playing the victim and threatening to sue low-wage workers personally. Regardless of the rights and wrongs in the first place, there was no need for him (for example) to advance on the lad like he did, especially when he was so near the platform edge.

It is not at all unusual for people like this to deliberately set up these situations for content.

 

[Plasma63]

I came across this disturbing video today we're a man was unlawfully ejected with unreasonable force from a Merseyrail train and station. The passenger was calm throughout and very distressed and was explaining that when he got to the booking office it was not staffed. He even waited around 3 minutes but no staff member appeared and he started his journey without having had an opportunity to purchase.

Very disturbing a member of Merseyrail bylaw enforcement staff attempted to penalty fare him but when the customer insisted that he had not had an opportunity to pay his fare as the booking office was not manned they unlawfully ejected him from the train.

A penalty fare cannot be issued in the circumstances and the same by law enforcement officers some of whom have been found guilty of assaulting customers in court.

 

[jon0844]

Exactly. These people gleefully latch on to any opportunity to start filming, escalating, and playing the victim and threatening to sue low-wage workers personally. Regardless of the rights and wrongs in the first place, there was no need for him (for example) to advance on the lad like he did, especially when he was so near the platform edge.

It is not at all unusual for people like this to deliberately set up these situations for content.

YouTube is slllloooowwwwwly starting to demonetise, remove and even ban some of these 'auditor' and Sovereign Citizen channels, so if their revenue stream ends they might just stop. We can only hope.

That said, I notice that some big names related to the 2022 US mid-term elections have told their base that they're going to experiment with the SovCit movement to avoid laws and stop paying taxes, and are taking donations (funny that - it's almost like they know it's a scam), so I guess they can still make a living from showing their attempts on other social media platforms - and, sadly, encouraging a lot more people to join in.

Some of these people even end up in jail, but from what I've seen on YouTube, when they come out they are considered heroes - and their partners/family/friends usually e-beg throughout to raise funds to cover for the time these people are incarcerated.

It is still biggest in the USA, but there are plenty of people now in the UK, Australia, Ireland and elsewhere that post online regularly - as well as many channels that expose these people as frauds.

 

[VauxhallandI]

YouTube is slllloooowwwwwly starting to demonetise, remove and even ban some of these 'auditor' and Sovereign Citizen channels, so if their revenue stream ends they might just stop. We can only hope.

That said, I notice that some big names related to the 2022 US mid-term elections have told their base that they're going to experiment with the SovCit movement to avoid laws and stop paying taxes, and are taking donations (funny that - it's almost like they know it's a scam), so I guess they can still make a living from showing their attempts on other social media platforms - and, sadly, encouraging a lot more people to join in.

Some of these people even end up in jail, but from what I've seen on YouTube, when they come out they are considered heroes - and their partners/family/friends usually e-beg throughout to raise funds to cover for the time these people are incarcerated.

It is still biggest in the USA, but there are plenty of people now in the UK, Australia, Ireland and elsewhere that post online regularly - as well as many channels that expose these people as frauds.

More Youtube social censorship isn't a good thing. There is a dangerous left is best and no other opinions are allowed culture at the moment.

Most of these videos I have seen would have zero content if the power hungry authorities in them just left these people alone, they cause the issues with their ego.

 

[Darandio]

More Youtube social censorship isn't a good thing. There is a dangerous left is best and no other opinions are allowed culture at the moment.

Most of these videos I have seen would have zero content if the power hungry authorities in them just left these people alone, they cause the issues with their ego.

I'm not sure you understand exactly what an auditing account is. Of course there are videos out there that you describe above but there are thousands upon thousands of videos over hundreds and hundreds of accounts which have been created simply with the intention to provoke and film the reaction. We aren't talking just about the railways here. People entering off limits areas of a hospital for example just to film the consequences when they are told to leave and refuse.

 

[jon0844]

YouTube cannot allow people to harass people at their place of work then make money from it. I am surprised anyone could defend people going into hospitals, libraries, schools, post offices and wandering everywhere with a camera poking people in the face and then goading them - waiting for a reaction.

Of course they'd have no content if people didn't react. That's the whole point of them doing it. Notice how many videos go on for 30, 60 minutes or more yet despite constantly filming will still have gaps. Funny that. I wonder why!

Once upon a time people may have had a camera on their cycle helmet and posted videos of terrible driving, but that obviously wasn't enough - now it's clear that many regular content creators are setting up incidents to keep the videos coming. The have subscribers, they have patreon donations, they have websites and GoFundMes. It's big business.

Nobody can seriously think that's okay? It was obviously always going to happen though, just like TikTok is now full of it.

Indeed, now there are loads of staged videos of people in fake uniforms (parking wardens seem to be flavour of the month right now) that get people riled up, but are 100% made up. How long until we see someone in a fake uniform pretending to work on the railway?

(I suspect this is now venturing towards being a thread in its own right).

 

[Benjwri]

I'm not sure you understand exactly what an auditing account is. Of course there are videos out there that you describe above but there are thousands upon thousands of videos over hundreds and hundreds of accounts which have been created simply with the intention to provoke and film the reaction. We aren't talking just about the railways here. People entering off limits areas of a hospital for example just to film the consequences when they are told to leave and refuse.

Exactly, there is perhaps a very limited benefit to the 'auditing' accounts looking at government owned non sensitive sites, but I've seen videos where they turn up to a private industrial estate and start going up to the site's security and harassing them about why their security gate isn't shut, even though there is no legal, or even company policy reason for them to do so, then film when they're asked to leave the site so they can stop harassing the security, and perhaps creating a bigger security issue with the distraction than the actual 'issue' they are mentioning.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Another case of careful what you wish for. You’re handing the authoritarian’s it in a plate.

Every single one I’ve seen they are not in private property, only public.

Smile and say hello after all your are filmed everywhere in life. You can’t start drawing up lines to suit individuals tolerance levels this never works. We are back to the feelings police.